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Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by PlayinHarder, Jun 6, 2018.
How much of a Diva was Landry?
Jarvis=not so much, 6 outta 10 maybe
Dirty?=1000 outta 10
I’m not all that big on using salary for comparisons for a number of reasons.
1) Bad teams have to overpay for talent
2) Players discount their salary to play on teams which they think have a good chance of winning a SB.
3) The salary cap keeps ratcheting up on an almost annual basis.
4) Prices can be inflated/deflated due to the supply/demand situation of any given year’s FA market.
5) Contract extensions are usually at lower tha open market prices due to players discounting their salary for lower risk.
6) real money -v- imaginary money that never actually gets paid on a contract.
7) guarnteed money -v- incentive payments
8) How many teams are active bidders, and what is their salary cap situation
What I will say is simply that Landry’s production has never been simply good. It has always been “good, but ...”. So for me the for a good WR 15 mil is fair, but for a “good but ...” player my pain threshold is about 12 mil per year. There isn’t any real science to that because you can’t make real apples to apples comparisons.
The thing that most fans don't get about Landry is that defenses would give him those 2 yard screen passes all freaking day long. On his best plays, he would escape multiple tackles and crank out 40 yards. On his worst catches, he'd go down at contact for a 2-5 yard gain. What's missing from this equation is that home run threat we have with Stills, Parker, Grant, Drake and just about everyone else on the roster that's paid to catch the ball (except the blocking TE's).
Defenses simply weren't going to double Landry because he wasn't going to take one step and torch you for 70 yards.
Now, Gase knew this...and with a struggling line and Jay Cutler at the helm, it made complete sense to take the freebie play that the defense will always give you and hope that Landry broke a few tackles. It was an easy play for them and the most favorable outcome, even when Landry did get the first down. In other words, Landry catching the ball was safe.
Yet when you move Grant to the slot, that freebie catch and run isn't free anymore....Grant is going to be checked at the LOS because he's an actual threat.
So let's be realistic here- is it an accomplishment catching 104 passes that the defense WANTED YOU TO CATCH? Personally, I think it was a big reason we lost 11 games....we would have been a hell of a lot more lethal if those passes were split between Grant and Drake on the exact same plays. That's nothing against Landry himself, but to me his biggest negotiating point was actually all smoke and mirrors. You can't call something an accomplishment when the other team is begging you to do it and intentionally leaving it wide open.
Bill belichick doubled Landry all the time. It’s all water under the bridge now. He’s gone in fact both physical tone setters in the offense have exited stage left in the last year. Both for late 4th round pick returns.
Has the feel of a very finesse outfit now on o. Which I think may be fine considering the tempo of play.
Interesting to see Landry slamming Tannehill and the Dolphins now....
Seems to be the theme.
Forget what us fans bicker about, Ryan has certainly been a subtle punching bag for some departing player's and some other guy's in the league.
Can't control what people say, just gotta come out and have the best 2018 you can and shut them up.
But make no mistake, he NEEDS to pick up where he left off before he got hurt. We cant have 2015 kind of play out of him or he has to go.
Lost a lot of respect for Landry today. Even if you felt this way take a higher ground/keep your mouth shut.
Lets look at the performance of receivers who left Miami and see how they went without RT.
2 years in Miami: 140 catches, 12.8 ypc, 15 TDs, 56.0 yards per game
2 years in Baltimore: 124 catches, 14.2 ypc, 8 TDs, 56.9 yards per game.
3 years in Miami with RT: 146 catches, 11.0 ypc, 11 TDs 38 yards per game
3 years in Buffalo with Tyrod: 157 catches, 10.4 ypc, 9 TDs! 40.0 yards per game
Rishard Mathews. For whatever reason he was in Philbin’s doghouse and was criminally underused so his volume in Tennessee is much higher than Miami. If we just look at his final year in Miami as an indicator of how he should have been used.
2015 in Miami 43 catches, 15.4 ypc, 4 TDs and 60.2 yards per game
Average of his 2 seasons in TEN: 59 catches, 14.7 ypc, 6.5 TDs, 58 yards per game.
Brian Hartline and Davon Bess: Took their careers to their grave with a final year in Cleveland.
There is no evidence that RT17 is holding back his receivers. The only receiver whose production has jumped after leaving Miami is Rishard Mathews, and that is based on increased volume because their coaches are not as clueless as Philbin. Charles Clay was slightly more efficient with RT17. Mike Wallace had a jump in ypc, but total production of yardage was about the same, but his TD rate more or less halved.
If Landry thinks his production is going to jump up now he has escaped Tannehill, history has a different opinion.
I'm really not that surprised, he's always been about himself more than anything. So hopefully him and Tyrod have magical chemistry so they can celebrate each other in their 3-13 season next year. It's really a perfect fit for Landry if you think about it- huge money, crap team, etc.
Nice discussion! I could be wrong, and I know it seems like it now, but I don't think Gase jettisoned Landry because of his attitude. I think we just didn't want to pay him so much money. I believe Gase would have continued to work with him even though he can be a complete pain in the backside sometimes. Now that he is gone, and Gase has guys with a great attitude ( at the moment) it seems like a no-brainer, but at the time I don't think they thought like that. Speed or no, Landry is a heck of a WR. Personally, I liked Landry as a fin, but now that he is gone, I like the guys we have now.
As for his public comments, I think guys talk **** about other players and their old teams all the time off-the-record, so it is probably no surprise to anyone in our organization that Landry feels the way he does. They have probably heard it before. Landry just makes himself look bad by running his mouth publically. The dude was targeted a million times and he had a ton of catches, yet he still implies Gase didn't use him correctly?
Running your mouth publicly shows me a lack of maturity and leadership
That Browns team is extremely young. Only three players on the entire 90 man roster over 30, and one is a punter while the others will be fighting for backup jobs. Landry will be set up to be a leader, especially due to his contract and mouth. It will be interesting to see what that all turns into.
I can see his production jumping not because of the QB but because of play calling. Unless the Browns are also going to throw him 3 yard passes 10 times a game.
Landry will most likely do better in Cleveland than in Miami because the Browns have more weapons on offense than the Dolphins did when Landry was here. Landry will most likely have fewer catches, but his TD's and YPC will most certainly increase.
However, if his catches drop off too much I can see him throwing temper tantrums and either ending up with the same sort of stats as he had here due to being forced the ball, or him getting blacklisted by the Browns QB's and not getting nearly any balls thrown to him.
This just confirms what many have said about his selfish personality. And I was under the impression every off-season (with the exception of the previous 2 years due to injury recovery) Ryan has reached out to all of his receivers and offered them a chance to work. That just seems like a flat out lie.
Not the total picture with Wallace. His YPT went from 7 to 8.44. His YPT in Pit was about 10.00, so he regained almost have of the efficiency he lost.
As for TDs, he saw 25% less targets than he did in Miami, and his TD percentage dropped 35%. So he did score 10% less than his Miami rate.
Your numbers are off. He had 256 targets in two years in Miami versus 208 in years in Baltimore. That's less than 21% fewer targets.
And I have no idea how you arrived at 10% lower TD rate. He scored 15 TDs in 256 targets in Miami (5.9%) and 8 TDs in 208 targets in Baltimore (3.8%). That' rate is 35% lower than in Miami.
And no one has mentioned the terrible year he had in Minnesota between Miami and Baltimore. And that's where he first shot off his mouth about how superior Minnesota (Bridgewater) was to Miami for him.
I know it isn’t the total picture, I gave him a complete mulligan for his horrible year in Minnesota.
He dropped from 8.0 targets per game in Miami to 6.7 targets per game in Baltimore. , so for a 16% reduction in targets per game he went from 0.46 TDs per game to 0.26 TDs per game which is by my math about a 45% reduction in his TD production per game.
Another way he scored 15 TDs on 256 targets in Miami, 1 TD per 17.1 targets.
In Baltimore he scored 8 TDs on 208 targets, 1 TD per 26.0 targets.
The question is whether we were throwing him 3 yard outs 10 times a game because that’s what he’s best at, or because our coaches misused him. I lean to the former, but Hue Jackson is supposed to be a good Offensive coach so we’ll see if he uses Landry differently t o how Lazor/Gase did.
He may not be a deep threat but I think his area of success is within 15 yards. His yards per catch increased every year and when he finally got a good coach and a much improved Tannehill he was good for 12.1 y/c. If Tannehill would of have never been hurt I don't see why he couldn't hover around the 11-13 y/c range.
This is akin to Ricky's 2003 season where he was just forced to run straight into the defense 392 times with no creativity in the play calling and his rushing avg dipped to 3.5.
If he was as selfish as people make him out to be he’d have held out or gone to the media about his contract after year three.
I based it off Roto stats (or another site). The difference in TD % was accounting for the reduction in targets
Regardless, I think that its pretty clear that there hasn't been a single offensive player who got significant playing time with with Miami while RT was the QB, and then went on to do bigger and better things elsewhere. He's held no one back. The odds of Landry having bigger numbers in Cleveland than he had in 2015 & 2016 is pretty small.
I would like to agree with you, ad I think that is what Landry should be able to do.
However if we look at his ypc per season:
The outlier there is 2016. The other seasons indicate he’s a 9 to 11 ypc kind of receiver. Cutler did hurt his numbers as far ypc is concerned, but they aren’t a huge way away from his career averages.
I expect his ypc to go up, but I think expecting it to go North of 12 ypc is being very optimistic, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it was closer to 10 than 12, because of the situation with a rookie qb being a likely starter for a significant part of the season.
If he didn’t go to the media why were there so many stories about him feeling disrespected by the offers he got from Miami?
I agree. I believe that his agent was griping, both openly and through the media, for quite some time.
Number still don't add up. I think you may adjusted twice.
I don’t recall any offers in season either after year 3 or in 2017 but if there was Im sure it’s cause miami low balled him.
I mean my opinion is knowing what I know of the market in general unless you are offering him top 5 money at the position it’s a low ball. And it’s not because he’s a top 5 player at the posiition. People need to get that out of their heads. It’s because on the market he’s worth top 5 money to teams like for example Chicago who going into this offseason was looking for consistent week in and week out production and durability.
This narrative of trying to downplay the players impact and discard his value and character even cause he’s no longer in aqua and orange is low class frankly. Both front office and fan base.
That's really baloney, man. A player doesn't automatically deserve top five money just because he's going to be UFA. He has to, you know, be that good? Allen Robinson got big money from Chicago because, though coming off an injury, he's just a much better player than Landry ever has been or will be.
Landry got paid by Cleveland because its a really unusual situation with a team desperate to make things work who also not only has a ton of cap room, but a mandate to spend money to meet the necessary floor. For the Fins to have paid him anywhere near what he got there would have been madness. BTW, the Browns can cut him after two years with only a small dead money hit, and I would say there's a good chance it happens.
He deserved the kind of money that Keenan Allen, Doug Baldwin or Randall Cobb got. But even then, I could argue that it wouldn't have been money greatly spent by the Fins.
He’s worth top 3 money as a slot..not overall wide receiver, doesn’t have the goods to work outside no matter how much he tries to convince everyone he does...jmo.
Ironically he is one of the WRs who haven’t bashed Ryan Tannehill after the departure.
I’d love a link that has him saying Bridgewater was better etc.
I like how Landry played with a lot of heart but he simply is not explosive or fast enough to be a true diva.He just has the attitude and money.
If it’s really baloney explain to me how mike Wallace became the highest paid wr in football in Miami as a free agent.
You want to tell me he was top 5?
I feel ya. I loved his fire. It’s kind of a catch 22. Him getting in beefs was the fire we liked but it also hurt the team. In the long run this is the ultimate team sport. So you can’t hurt the team as much as I love the fire.
I'm glad Landry is gone.
It was getting really tedious moderating or withholding my criticisms of the guy because I didn't want to be annoying about a player that the fans clearly love.
He will collapse under the weight of his own contract in Cleveland within 3 years. He's just another in a long line of slot receivers that were made by Ryan Tannehill's single-minded over-reliance (to his own detriment) on slot receivers of that type.
Ryan Swope was starting to get talked about as a 1st round pick until everyone realized his brains were scrambled eggs. Davone Bess at one time was being touted by the NFL types who are always trying to be the smart guy in the room, like Mike Mayock and Michael Lombardi, as the next Wes Welker. And now Jarvis Landry gets $15 million a year, and it sure as hell wasn't for that abominable 6.1 yards per target he had with Jay Cutler throwing the football. He should be on his knees rimming Tannehill's ******* for that contract.
Everyone are so quick to excuse Landry's 2017 season because of Jay Cutler and they never follow that rationale to its logical conclusion, taking a look at essentially the ONE good season Jarvis Landry has ever had in the NFL (2016), taking a look at the quality of the QB play, and the cyclically-high efficiency numbers that OTHER wide receivers on the roster enjoyed that year (DeVante Parker 8.6 yards per target, Kenny Stills 9.0 yards per target, hell even 8.3 combined yards per target for the slappies at TE, Dion Sims and MarQueis Gray).
Good luck on the 0-16 Cleveland Browns though. I'm sure that will work out for you. Then again maybe it will. He will get lots of garbage time opportunities to pad his numbers under looser conditions, especially in the second half while down in the score, which was his specialty in Miami.
I think you are correct, sadly. I think he will actually be better there, because in the second halves of games, they won't matter, and then he is free to do his thing. And when they go to Baker, he will be over-reliant on Landry the way Tannehill was. No, I think this is one of those things where he will appear to be worth the money, but they will not win games due to his efforts.
Not so sure about Baker Mayfield.
Trying to think of a player like Jarvis Landry that Baker Mayfield relied on heavily, and can't really think of one. Maybe Mark Andrews is a very literal sense since Andrews and Landry have about the same speed. Certainly not Sterling Shepard, who is far faster and more athletic than Landry, worked the outside really well. Nor Dede Westbrook, who was an extreme deep threat. Nor Marquise Brown, who runs in the 4.3's.
Already when you hear Baker Mayfield talking up players at Browns practice, I've mostly heard him marveling all misty-eyed at what a specimen Josh Gordon is. I think Tyrod Taylor will make regular use of Jarvis Landry, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if Baker Mayfield steers the ball toward Josh Gordon, Corey Coleman, and David Njoku more, as opposed to Landry.
And knowing Jarvis, he will screw this relationship up himself. This is not the guy with the sort of emotional IQ that I would think you would need in order to handle a complicated QB/HC situation like the Browns have.
Hue Jackson went all-in on Tyrod Taylor and dubbed him the starter before the draft even happened. He reiterated that in early May, saying that Tyrod is the starter and "there is no competition ... I'm not going to back off this".
How do you think that's going to sit with an ultra competitive guy like Baker Mayfield? Being told he's not even competing for the start? That no matter what he does, it doesn't matter?
Tyrod Taylor feels very slighted over his skin color and activism, and is very clear that he thinks that he's not only a starter in the NFL but a good starter and has put together performances to prove it. He's 28 friggin years old too. You think Tyrod is taking this Baker Mayfield #1 overall pick stuff sitting down? Think he's going to take Baker under his wing, get him ready for when he has to hand him the reins, etc?
Bull sh-t. Already when asked about Tyrod Taylor, Baker Mayfield is signaling that all might not be well. He speaks highly of Tyrod, but when you hear the words, "quiet", "doesn't say much," and "leads by example," that tells me EVERYTHING I need to hear about that frosty relationship.
Doesn't say much? Leads by example? Yet he's reaching out to everyone on the team, offense and defense, spearheading workouts, etc.? No son, he's just not saying much TO YOU.
And what do we hear out of Jarvis Landry already? Cozying up to Tyrod Taylor. There he is on viral workout videos with David Njoku and Ricardo Louis catching balls from Tyrod Taylor in Miami. Not pictured? Baker Mayfield.
Hue Jackson is in the tank for a 28 year old Tyrod Taylor and that could be a lot more dangerous for locker room relations than people in Cleveland probably think, especially since Hue Jackson is such an obvious Jarvis Landry fan and makes a big show of embracing everything Landry does that we would always wish he wouldn't. That's Hue. He's as eccentric as Landry himself.
Do I trust someone with the emotional IQ of Jarvis Landry to handle this situation with care? To not piss off the guy who WILL eventually be taking the reins from Tyrod Taylor, one way or another? Hell, forget accidentally pissing off a temperamental Mayfield who is notorious for holding grudges, I don't even trust Jarvis Landry to not end up coming out publicly against Mayfield for some perceived slight, especially now that he's got that contract.
If anything I see Landry getting more penalties in Cleveland. Same or less production.
Yeah if you think a Jarvis Landry with $75 million and the perception of total job security is going to get MORE sane...