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How To Read Genesis In Historical Context

Discussion in 'Religion and Spirituality' started by Da 'Fins, Mar 30, 2013.

  1. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Much is made of the debates about Creation-Evolution.

    You may find this a useful read (I think the debates are a waste of time and more based on a misreading of Gen. 1 through a literalistic lens of the modern enlightenment rather than a picture reflecting the human perspective of ancient cosmic geography). I lean toward an "evolutionary-creationist" view. The site pdf below is from biologos.org which is a very good site for research on these matters on a more scholarly level.

    Biologos was founded by Francis Collins, former director of the Human Genome Project and now Director of the National Institutes of Health.

    Link to the article on Ancient Cosmic Geography - give it a read - would love to hear comments on this.

    http://biologos.org/uploads/projects/godawa_scholarly_paper_2.pdf
     
  2. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    My buddy works on the Human Genome Project for a firm out in Walnut Creek.....

    when he talks about it, I am lost.....
     
  3. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    The argument should be more centered around the concepts of fact and belief and how they cannot be the same thing and still retain the qualities that make a thing a fact or a belief.

    Evolution is fact and is not a belief. The Biblical Genesis is a belief and is not a fact. That makes neither concept inherently less or more valuable than the other. They are just subject to the relativity that a given person applies to them.
     
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  4. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    They are both based on faith. Both are evidenced based. All belief is based on evidence is of testimony. Evolution is a belief that is robust; but macroevolution (evolution across species; certainly having strong components of evidence) has never been "observed" in the way microevolution (evolution within species) is.

    But, you're confusing categories. The parallels are as follows:

    Science is the study of nature and it is subject to continual review and reevaluation and may at times be correct or incorrect. Any dogmatism that doesn't allow questioning results in a kind of blind faith. As a result the science becomes distorted.

    Theology is the study of God/religion and it is subject to continual review and reevaluation and may at times be correct or incorrect. Any dogmatism that doesn't allow questioning results in a kind of blind faith. As a result the theology becomes distorted.

    But the point of this article, if you bother to read it, is that a literalistic reading of Genesis (which both believers and non-believers engage in) is not warranted by the historical-cultural-literary context of the book. And the greater point is that it does not
     
  5. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    God created nature. Why would He not work through the nature He created? To say He couldn't have done this, in cosmic time, because of literal adherence to an allegory inspired in the minds of ancients ignorant of modern science is to deny God's omnipotence.

    We have a long way to go before we can dictate how God could or couldn't have done something. Tail wagging the dog.
     
  6. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    That is simply not true. Evolution is fact. Science is fact. There is no room for faith in science. In fact, as soon as faith enters into the equation it can no longer be called legitimate science. Fact and faith are literally opposites, therefore their corresponding disciplines, science and religion are opposites as well. Now, you can combine them if you wish, but doing so leaves you with neither a religion or science, it leaves you with philosophy.

    I can hold a pen above my desk and let go. Assuming this happened on Earth under everyday circumstances, it is a fact the pen drops to the desk. Its inarguable. Now, before I let go of it, a person can believe it won't fall. They can think this one time, their deity/higher power will stop the pen from dropping and let it hover in mid air. That faith can be real and significant, but only exists until I let go of the pen. Even if the pen does float this one time, its no longer a matter faith that its floating, its fact that is floating now. Your faith may have brought you to that moment, but that moment is now a fact.

    Fact:
    something that actually exists

    Faith:
    belief that is not based on proof

    Just because facts can change as more data is collected doesn't put fact and science in the same realm as faith and religion. They are still opposites.
     
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  7. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    Evolution is not fact. It is the accepted answer by most, but it is not proven. And if/when it ever is proven it has nothing to do with religion. If evolution was ever proven that doesn't cause religion to be false. Some science, in part, is faith based.

    Your last sentence, due to it's total contradiction, has ripped a hole in space and at the same time caused the eyes of all the scientists in the world to bleed and their faith in humanity to dwindle. Lol Facts don't change. That's why they are called facts.
     
  8. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Yes it is fact. Yes it is proven. You simply don't understand the science behind it. Nowhere have I said evolution being true proves religion false. So that's simply a made up argument on your part.

    There's not a single contradiction in that sentence. Facts do change based on the amount of info we do have. Its obvious, you don't actually understand these concepts.
     
  9. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Evolution deniers understand the science perfectly well. They also understand that it's accepted as no longer subject to debate by the properly credentialed scientific community. They deny it because it threatens their view of the universe. So they resort to sophistry, misdirection, exaggeration, and outright misrepresentation, all of which violates the commandment about bearing false witness that they supposedly espouse. You haven't seen anything truly sad until you see a poor, loyal kid in science class doggedly insisting that evolution is "just a theory."
     
  10. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Which is why I'm trying to get people to understand the difference between fact and faith. And further than that, if you know something as a fact it cannot be faith anymore. People are literally destroying their faith by trying to prove it to be fact. The need to prove one's faith is a sign of weak faith.
     
  11. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    Lol... You have no idea. It's obvious that you're bright. It's obvious that you haven't studied any of these things your talking about in a formal setting. Not to say that you're not capable, but if you had you wouldnt be talking about evolution in such a black and white way. It's also obvious that you look at things in a way to prove your views instead of looking at things to base your views upon.

    Parts of evolution are fact. Parts of evolution are theories. Thus, the theory of evolution is not totally fact. Something that is not totally fact has to be part theory or faith based upon either evidence or belief.
     
  12. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Its obvious you're neither bright nor have studied these things formally or not.

    Let's start with the difference between scientific theory and the layman's definition of theory. And no, don't even try to tell me you understand the difference between the two, because you've already proven you do not.
     
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  13. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    Lol... You're an angry little guy aren't you? Son, I doubt you made it very far past high school. JC maybe? You telling me something about scientific theory would be like me trying to tell Dan Marino how to throw a football.

    (I also got a good chuckle when you suggested that you're not a lay person and in your other post writing your reasons for teaching others about evolution. Too funny.)
     
  14. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I'm angry because you're a troll. You've purposely trolled people in the PoFo and you're doing it here.

    I never implied I was anything.

    However, you're ignoring the question at hand, Sport. What is the difference between scientific theory and theory as used in regular speech. You made a lot of blustering bs, but neglected to answer a fairly easy question....I wonder why that is??????
     
  15. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Not only that. He's pulling educational rank on you without stating his credentials or knowing yours. Classic hiding behind a keyboard.
     
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  16. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    I'm not trolling you. In fact, I gave you a compliment, but due to your anger you instead took debating as trolling. It's rare these days to see someone who hasn't had any/very little formal education write as well as you do. Again, you're problem isn't with your beliefs, suppositions, or views. You can believe what you want and I, for one, won't fault you for that...it's with how you came to your conclusions that bothers me. It's obvious that you're biased against religion, not neccessarily in a hateful way, but most definitely in a close minded way. In other words, it's either your way or the highway. Open up your mind (and heart?) a little more and you may be surprised to find out that things aren't so black and white all the time. Up to and including evolution.

    As for your question about scientific theory I'm sure that you're aware I understand it completely. If you say otherwise you're just arguing to argue.
     
  17. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    I'm confidant that I was right in regards to his education. I'm positive I know mine. There's no reason for me to list the schools I've attended or the degrees I've obtained. My point wasn't to belittle him or brag about me, it was to respond to his assumptions that I don't know science. So he can assume, but I can't? lol...OK

    As for the hiding, I'm confused, are you not sitting there, anonymous, behind a keyboard? Should I start a web cam for you so you can watch me type? Why would I hide? What would I need to hide from?


    Why are some of you so angry? It's like I wrote before, it's either your way or the highway. If someone disagrees with you guys you immediatedly turn to fight or flight mode. It's common for the un/undereducated to get so emotional when they feel like their beliefs are being questioned. Why? Because they can't handle the fact that they may be wrong. I'm wrong all the time.
     
  18. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    See, you're trolling. Here's 4 pieces of evidence you're trolling:

    1) You aren't answering a very simple question. Instead of answering it, you're implying you know the answer.
    2) You're firing blindly at the wall to see what sticks. I have given religion equal respect to science, in this thread and many others.
    3) Your "compliments" are false and followed by insults. Its why I insulted you then followed that with an insult, because i want you to understand I am not a troll and I know your game.
    4) As has been pointed out by CD, you imply I'm X and you're X+Y in regards to education, without defining the values of X & Y.
     
  19. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I'm not assuming you don't know science. It is obvious you do not.

    Tell you what, since you already demonstrated you don't understand the difference between scientific theory and regular theory, by making this asinine statement:
    ....then maybe you could enlighten us to which parts of evolution are fact and which are "faith based theory"?
     
  20. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    1. Because it's simple and you're arguing to argue. I won't play that game with you.
    2. If you say so.
    3. Insulting because you're angry.
    4. There needs to be no definition. I explained in my last post.
     
  21. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    I don't have the time right now. It would take pages and pages. It's obvious you have a rudimentary level of knowledge in regards to evolution. Basically you think "single cell to human"...when in reality it's far more complex (and uncertain than that). Your black and white phrase of "Evolution is fact" is wrong. It's not that simple.
     
  22. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    A whole lot of bull ****.

    Again, you refusal to answer basic questions proves you to be a troll. Which is one thing for the other forums here, but is really pretty pathetic and low in a religion forum. It won't be long before you're banned from this site for being the baiting, POS troll you have been since you've been here.
     
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  23. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    I stated that evolution isn't fact. I started explain a little. At least until you went into one of your cursing tirades. As you have nearly everytime I've disagreed with you.

    I don't need to answer such basic questions. Nor do i need to obey your wants. I'm sure if one of my 400+ posts were trolling I'd have heard about it from a mod. I haven't broken any forum rules. At least none of the rules posted. You, OTOH, have in nearly every reply to me you've made. lol I hope you're on blood pressure meds. You're going to stroke out if not. lol
     
  24. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    You've explained nothing. Per usual. You are baiting by being a troll which is against TOS.
     
  25. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    There is no explaining to you. You're set in your views no matter how wrong they may be. I've baited no one. You're angry for the reasons I stated above. Have fun. I'm sure your life is fulfilled and you need nor want for anything because you're just so smart. Lol
     
  26. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Yes you have baited.

    This entire site is about discussion, not you coming on, telling people they are wrong and have no idea what they are talking about, without backing up your claims.

    This has been the entirety of your MO in your short time here. You breeze in to a conversation/debate/argument and say crap like you did in here, without providing a single fact, piece of evidence, link or anything. That is the very definition of troll.

    You have very clearly illustrated that you don't understand the difference between scientific theory and regular theory, yet not only will you not admit it, you won't prove me wrong either. That is trollish. Just like this form the PoFo:
    Here you clearly admit that you're being a troll, so let's stop pretending you aren't now, because you're literally doing the same thing, which is say crap to get a reaction.
     
  27. Pagan

    Pagan Metal & a Mustang

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    There actually MUST be a god. There has to be, otherwise how can you explain the fact that this guy actually has me siding with FinD? :p
     
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  28. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    Sold that car yet? Ouch... Must suck to have to get rid of something even when you don't want to.
     
  29. Frumundah Finnatic

    Frumundah Finnatic U Mad Miami?

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    You have time to troll, yet you don't have time to explain your viewpoint?
    If you make a statement like that than the burden of proof falls on you.
     
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  30. Pagan

    Pagan Metal & a Mustang

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    Wow, that's your reply? Damn, my day is ruined.

    Yawn.
     
  31. Justright

    Justright Banned

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    It was an example of evolution
     
  32. Pagan

    Pagan Metal & a Mustang

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    Since pictures are worth 1,000 words, I'll save 998 of them and just say this:

    [​IMG]

    'Nuff said.
     
  33. Pagan

    Pagan Metal & a Mustang

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    And just in case...

    [video=youtube;2z-OLG0KyR4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z-OLG0KyR4[/video]

    The defense rests.
     
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  34. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    I'm not religious, but my wife is a Southern Baptist. We've had conversations on the topic, and while she will always believe in God and be a Christian, she is open to the idea that a "day" to God could be billions of years to a human, that God could have created Earth as part of a larger, vibrant, alive universe, and that God set evolution in motion billions of years ago himself. She's a woman of deep faith, but also open to interpretation, and find literal creationists silly and embarassing. I wish that more people were as well.
     

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