Not settling the QB "competition" and trading for Reggie Bush. Two moves that make me go . Thanks for the link.
it is what it is. let them compete. never know what they're really up to until its done would not surprise me to see another chapter in this book play out before too long it is what it is. let them compete.
not to be "outrageous"... but if the Dolphins signed Marc Bulger..wouldn't he be: A) a more comfortable option to backup Henne. B) Be competent enough to teach Henne some things. and that is Marc Bulger folks. I used him to point out how absurd this is. If we are handing the starting nod to Henne, shouldn't we be looking for these things?
I do. Hey Tony, you're a great guy, but you really need to win this season, by the way, we've bought you Matt Moore and Reggie Bush.
Seems to be the only option left. I'd rather he be the backup/mentor to Henne than Matt Moore, but that's not saying too much.
What can Marc Bulger do that Matt Moore can't???........... It essentially looks like Ross and Ireland have asked fist pumper and company to invade Normandy and then turned around and armed them with super soakers.
Not a Salguero fan but he, ostensibly, had very similar observations on this. While Orton is not an elite QB, he is an upper tier QB. He is good enough and experienced enough to lead a team with the right talent, deep into the playoffs. He's a much improved and better QB than he was in Chicago. The fact that QB is THE most important position on the team is something I fear this regime has patently neglected, unfortunately. At this point, while the Kolb deal is really awful, I think Miami, if they want to win the next two seasons, is going to have to push for Orton. I think he could be very good with the potential weapons available (though not all world, they have definite potential to make big plays). They have a relatively young defense that is a player or two away from being a top 5 D and certainly has the potential to be a top 5 D right now if things fall in place - especially with the addition of Burnett. They have an increasingly stronger OL. They have some pieces in place at RB, WR, TE/HB that could be adequate. A 3rd for Orton and paying the guy some significant bonuses with incentives (or a 4th that can move up to a 3rd by hitting certain benchmarks) should be reasonable. I hate trading draft picks as much as anyone. And, I can't abide the thought of ever giving up a 2nd. But, the pieces of this team are potentially there to be very competitive - and even potentially win in the playoffs, let alone just make the playoffs. I just don't think they can afford to not gamble at this point. I really wish the cap would come into place to see what Denver would do. This game of "chicken" is dangerous. Really more dangerous for us than for them, imo.
Didn't Sparano lobby for more say in personnel moves? I suspect he was well informed with this and talked extensively with Ross and Ireland about it. It seems to me if he said, "I want this guy (Orton) and I think we need him - our QB situation is not healthy for a winning season," then that could be influential. Hard to say. Will be interesting to see moving forward.
That is a justified fear as this regime has made it blatantly obvious they don't think the QB position is that important.
I've said it in a different thread as well: Denver is already well below the cap. There's pretty extensive research from their very own Clumpy out there and even their ex GM Ted Sundquist is on the record saying they're about 17 million under. The reason Denver wants to trade Orton isn't that they can't or don't want to afford him; it's that they want to play Tebow but can't hand him the spot with Orton clearly beating him in camp.
Word is that Orton is the holdup, not the Broncos. We reached an agreement (a 2nd wasn't even in discussion according to Elway) and Orton wouldn't back down from his contract demands.
Sad part is Moore is perfect competition for Henne. They both are fighting for a backup roll or should be IMO. Unless Henne has evolved and developed the talent of being more accurate with his longer passes, not over throwing turning the ball over and being able to read the defenses appropriately he'd be a backup at best. Though I have little faith in Henne, still hold the idea, Ya it's possible. If Orton was here their should be no competition. IMO you put Henne up to compete with a ligitimate desent NFL QB theirs no competition. And it's nice to see the uncertainty with Henne from the organization instead of the he will be our guy we listen to through much of the off season...... But Henne will be here and given continued opportunity to prove probably one last time that he can be a legitimate NFL QB for us. Be great if he was able to build positively off his first season but I'm afraid what I've seen is regression and an accuracy problem which I don't think can be changed by teaching...... If Ireland and Sparano have any thoughts of staying they 1.) Must find a descent QB and 2.) really start to bring in some quality offensive players to surround however we end up with....
I wonder what the money difference is between what Orton wants and what Miami wants to pay? If it's not a huge difference I think Miami should pony up and pay it.
Given that Tony seems to think Reggie Bush is a feature back, I'd be quite frightened to hear some of his other personnel opinions.
Apparently, it's not so much about the sum itself but about how the deal is structured. Orton wants it guaranteed to make sure that he's not simply an expendable stop gap solution (who can blame him?), Miami doesn't want it guaranteed so they aren't tying their QB fate to Kyle Orton for the next 3-4 years (who can blame them?).
I see the opposite of most in this thread. Orton is never going to lead you to a SB so what's the point in bringing him in? To get maybe a win or two more next year? (I don't believe he provides that BTW) By not losing their flexibility to trade up in the draft for a QB they are at least giving themselves a chance to gamble on being great. I don't know how the draft or the season will break, but there's a fair chance that it will be one of those great QB drafts. With our need at QB they have at least have a chance to participate.
Ya and still trying to build a O line after it being his focal point for three years also makes one wonder...
You play to win the game not to get yourself in a high position in future drafts. I have no problem with Kyle orton for the next three seasons. He's a good QB and he has a good rapport with our best offensive player. No they probably won't be able to draft Andrew Luck but they could still look for and potentially get a talented first round QB in the next few seasons.
I hope they wait for Orton,he might be an upgrade but it's not like he is an elite QB and I hope they wait until he is cut before they trade away another pick.
IMO Orton is Henne with a better OC, so I don't see him as an upgrade anyways. But regardless you don't build a team by looking at just one year. To be a perennial contender you need a franchise QB. You see Orton as 'good enough', I don't and I hope this team doesn't either. You build a team by looking at both the present and the furture. Trading a high pick would be an example of selling your chance at the future. And it's not just Luck that you would miss out on. My guess is that there could be as many as four good QBs in the coming 1st round and they could all be gone in the top 10 or 12. Say we do the same as last year, 7-9. We're already going to need to trade up to get to those QBs. If you go into that with out your first three picks then we're where we were last year (although IMO those QBs weren't good enough to warrant a trade up). And our schedule is easier than last year's so odds are we win a game or two more even if Henne and everybody else don't improve a lick. So if we want trade up it's probably going to be expensive. Trading a high pick for Orton was my worst case scenario for this off-season as it would make us no better now and sell our best chance at getting a franchise guy for several years.
I don't see that as an absolute. There is no way any of us can know that for sure. If guys like Earl Morrall, Jeff Hostetler, Mark Rypien, Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer etc can win a SB, then so can Orton. If we are talking about just getting there, then he is as good as plenty of QBs who made it there but lost.
Doesn't that same logic apply to the Dolphins, Orton wants real money and he isn't that special. At least if Henne doesn't work out the Fins will not be tied to Orton for years to come. Is Tebow a better QB than Henne.
I see Orton (or Henne for that matter) as capable of having one magical season and getting us there. Reality is that probably half of the QBs in the league have that ability. Heck, Fiedler could have done it if everything broke right. However, the odds for that level of QB aren't good. At most you get incredibly lucky and have that one year like the guys you mentioned above and then you're back to looking for a QB as those teams were. I don't see Orton as having the ability to be a franchise QB that makes you a perennial contender.
Moore battling Henne for the starting QB spot. Give me a break. I didnt want to pay a kings ransom for Orton,not saying he is the answer anyway,but there were other options out there. And to think this organization feels its a good idea to take a chance on these two, and a terrible idea to draft a young QB is mind boggling to say the least.
This is exactly what I wanted to say and why I have not/do not believe the Orton deal is truly dead. Thank you for saving me the time of writing it. We're not the best team in the league right now, but we might be good in enough places that it will truly be a waste if we do not address the starting QB situation (which is essentially Orton). I'm not sure the fan base is prepared to stomach it, either.
Tebow is a different kind of QB so that's a difficult comparison, but the point remains. Orton is a QB that two regimes have now decided that whatever he is, he's not good enough. He's not a malcontent or a bad team mate or publicity nightmare so it's all about his talent. And now people want to bash this regime for not wanting to trade a high pick and give a big contract to a QB that isn't good enough? IMO that's nothing more than frustration built up over time. IMO that frustration is justified, but that frustration would not turn a bad trade into a good one.
I'm pretty sure that was just lip service. Tony doesn't criticize or degrade players publicly, much less ones they just signed 5 minutes ago. He also said you have to use Bush in a very specific way. There's your truth.
Henne needs to be walking around with some serious confidence, a different man, there needs to be a tangible difference in the way he's carrying himself, if not, then he will be in trouble.
- Posts deleted - Fellas, let's not get personal regarding fellow members. No need to generalize or label someone. Disagree and debate, but leave it at that. Thank you
There were names, but I don't see them as good options. While I can't say I'm much of a Moore fan, I don't see any of the options out there as likely to beat out Henne. I'm not even a Henne fan, I'm just less of a fan of the options out there.
I agree. At this point it seems he`s going to get yet another chance to prove himself. If he don`t grab the bull by the horns this time he`s done,no excuses.
McNabb, Hasselbeck, Young, possibly Delhomme ... you might not be a fan of those options, which is fine, but there was certainly the possibility to acquire a player that would prove more of a challenge for Chad Henne than Matt Moore. I think Matt Moore was the one option that's glad to have gotten a decent contract and won't complain about a possible Orton trade. McNabb, Young, Hasselbeck, they'd all have asked Ireland if the Orton deal was dead and said no if he told them it wasn't.
As long as it's been, I'd settle for one Super Bowl, even if it were a fluke. If a team makes the SB once as decade they are beating the odds.
