We don't need a passrushing LB, as we don't run that type of D, we need guys who can stop the run and cover.
Ryan Leaf and Andrew Luck and Brian Bosworth and Peyton Manning and Jamarcus Russell and a slew of other college players were once "projected" to become elite players. Most teams "project" that their 1st rounders will be "elite". Do you think your favorite player, Tom Brady, was projected as "elite"? Are you getting the point of the quotes, yet? Garret has been projected to be an elite DE. Tunsil was projected to be an elite OT. You do realize that there are different positions in the game of football, right?
Wait, first you talk about projections, and now you talk about actual performance in the league. You're all over the place. Fact of the matter is, there aren't 30-40 elite prospects in the draft. There never is. There may be 4-10, max. I never said there was just one. If there are 30 elite prospects than you don't really care if you pick 29 vs 2. Because you're gonna get an elite prospect. You think the Dolphins thought Jawuan James was an elite prospect? Back in 2008, you think Flacco was an elite prospect on the same level as Matt Ryan? It's conventional wisdom that you run out of elite prospects after the top 10. As for elite players, well that's a different conversation. Why was everyone so mad last year after trading down just a few spots with the Iggles? Because the decline in prospects is fast around there. If you think there are 5-10 elite prospects but 30 blue chippers, then that's different. Simple question. Do you think you're getting roughly the same prospect, no matter the position, at 30 that you would at 2 or 3?
I'm not talking about actual performance in the league. If you got that out of my post you need to re-read it and comprehend it. I'm talking about team projections. You do understand that not every team projects the same for each player, right? So when you write stuff like, "If there are 30 elite prospects than (sic) you don't really care if you pick 29 vs 2. Because you're gonna get an elite prospect.", it makes me think you have no clue what's going on. Miami may be projecting that there are 10 "elite" players this draft. The Raiders may think that there are 10 "elite" players this draft. Do you think for one second that each team has the same 10 players? For the sake of argument, let's say that 8 out of their 10 players are the same. However, they each have 2 different players they are projecting as "elite". That's 12 players projected as "elite" between just two teams. Imagine if you looked at the projections of each team. Team A may project a certain player is going to play at an elite level for them. However, other teams may have that same guy going in the bottom of the 2nd round. So when Team A rolls the dice, and waits until their 2nd round pick to get said player they just got an "elite player" in the 2nd round. (oh, look, there are those pesky quotation marks again, Do you understand their use yet?) The purpose of my original post, the one that has you so perplexed, was to say that this is a really deep class. There are "elite" players being projected as far down as the 2nd round. Understand?
This is a deep draft, but the one thing this draft is missing, is elite, there's only about 5 elite "PROSPECTS" in this draft, as there is no such thing as an elite NFL "player" in the draft, it's obviously impossible until they actually play in the NFL. Potential to be an elite "player" is not the same as an elite "prospect", Cunningham imo, has potential to be an elite "player" but is not an elite "prospect", I could also say the same for Adoree, and elite "players" will come from throughout the draft, but there is only a small handful of elite "prospects".
I think that we are getting into a war of semantics on this one. Perhaps to further the discourse on the merits of trading back, people should just list the players they consider 'elite' or 'blue chip', so that the community as a whole knows who the exact players that each of you guys are referring to, and we can build our discussion from there.
Wrong. I'd go into further detail as to why, but this post doesn't deserve the time it would take to wipe my *** with it. lol
That's a lame *** response. You know you are wrong but just don't want to admit it. Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk
lol..Afraid not. Finster should really just put me back on ignore. He's just as wrong as he was when he fought tooth and nail about how many draft picks the Dolphins spent to get Carroo. He was proven wrong, ignored the evidence and then completely ignored the post..never admitted he was wrong. So what's the use explaining things to him? I feed him a poop sandwich then and I'm really tired of feeding him and that's the main reason I replied the way I did.
I know you're not, that's why I keep talking about prospects. Nobody knows who is going to be elite or not, until it happens. That's silly then. You are all over the place. You have no idea what each team projects as elite. So you're trying to do a cross-section/matrix of all players at least one team thinks is elite, and arguing there are pretty close to sure elite players lasting to 30+? No, you didn't do that. You are projecting, not trying to figure out all the different players teams might have elite grades on. What if the 10 miami has elite grades on, is gone at 22? They should trade down then. But you argue they shouldn't, because there are bunch of pretty close to sure elite players left. Are these your grades are you got the grades of all 32 teams? You argue from both points on that. If you wanted to say this is a deep class, say it's a deep class. That's fine. I wouldn't have even sniped at your post. To say there may be 12 pretty sure elite players is ridiculous. "Pretty close to sure elite" isn't surefire but it's right next to it. And you're saying there are close to 12 of those at our pick at 22. That's ridiculous. Your quote, which you are trying to hide from, is saying there are 12 elite prospects, pretty close to sure elite players, at 22. It's rare to have 12 of those in a single draft, nevermind at 22. Re-reading your posts you are clearly using "elite" when you should be saying, solid, or blue chipper. You're arguing there are players you project to be elite still at our 2nd round pick. when you say "pretty close to sure elite player" that is the utmost guarantee with a CYA (because nobody can fully guarantee an elite player). You get but a handful of those each year.
If you 3 knew the definition of prospect and projection, and the reasons for using quotations, you would have stopped looking silly long ago. lol Prospect synonyms: anticipation chance expectation forecast future hope likelihood plan possibility probability proposal thought calculation contemplation expectancy presumption Projection synonyms: calculation estimate estimation forecast computation extrapolation guess prognostication reckoning
I know what prospect and projection means. It's the draft, it's all projection at this point. Nobody is saying I'll see you in 3 years to prove you wrong. Your justification for arguing there are at least a dozen close to sure elite players in this draft at 22, is because there are 32 teams and they won't all have the same handful of players graded as elite. So there might be 30-40 names on the list of all players graded elite by at least one team. When you say there are those dozen or "close to sure elite players" available at 22, based on what? Who gave those 12 players the elite grade. You? A secret list of all 32 teams you somehow came across? I'm going to assume they are your grades, right? If not, and you want to sell that list, I'll buy that list for $5. You're the new Matt Cannata
We're going round and round. I was just messing with you originally. If you say, there are 12 players who I think can be elite, and this is a deep draft. No beef. Close to sure elite players, is an elite prospect. And there just aren't that many in any draft. There just isn't. It's nuanced, but there is a difference. I pointed to Dorial Green Beckham and Amari Cooper as one example. Cooper was an elite prospect, and it shows. DGB is someone who can be elite, but he's so raw. But he has such immense potential. He's a project. Extreme ends of the spectrum but for illustration. Elite prospects are la creme de la creme. Myles Garret and those others bunched at the top. It's Tunsil who only dropped because of Bong hits. It's Calvin Johnson. Elite prospects don't last past 15 unless they're coke heads or trouble makers (Randy Moss).
In 2015, the following players were graded as "Elite or Blue Chip" by a large majority of experts. I'll give you their definition of both. Elite: These players should earn Pro Bowl recognition early in their careers and rank among the top five players at their respective positions in two to three years. Blue Chip: These prospects are regarded as difference makers based solely on their talent. They should start as rookies and make immediate contributions to their respective teams. There are 21 players here. Which ones were elite and which ones were blue chip? For the ones projected to be "elite", do you think any teams didn't have them graded as such? For the ones projected as blue chip, do you think any teams had them graded as elite? Marcus Mariota, QB, Oregon DeVante Parker, WR, Louisville Melvin Gordon, RB, Wisconsin Shane Ray, DE/OLB, Missouri Leonard Williams, DE, USC Dante Fowler Jr., DE/OLB, Florida Jameis Winston, QB, Florida State Danny Shelton, DT, Washington Landon Collins, S, Alabama La'el Collins, OL, LSU Brandon Scherff, OL, Iowa Marcus Peters, CB, Washington Amari Cooper, WR, Alabama Kevin White, WR, West Virginia Trae Waynes, CB, Michigan State Arik Armstead, DL, Oregon Randy Gregory, DE/OLB, Nebraska Andrus Peat, OT, Stanford Dorial Green-Beckham, WR, Missouri Todd Gurley, RB, Georgia Vic Beasley, DE/OLB, Clemson The following 25 players were considered "Red Chip". Do you think any teams had them as blue chip or elite? Red Chip: These guys should contribute as part-time players initially before finishing the season as starters for their respective teams. In addition, they should be key contributors on special teams units and provide timely playmaking in their designated roles. Kevin Johnson, CB, Wake Forest Ereck Flowers, OT, Miami Jalen Collins, CB, LSU Benardrick McKinney, ILB, Mississippi State Malcom Brown, DT, Texas Bud Dupree, OLB, Kentucky Cameron Erving, OL, Florida State T.J. Clemmings, OT, Pittsburgh Devin Smith, WR, Ohio State Denzel Perryman, LB, Miami Eric Kendricks, LB, UCLA Jordan Phillips, DT, Oklahoma Jaelen Strong, WR, Arizona State Nelson Agholor, WR, USC Duke Johnson, RB, Miami P.J. Williams, CB, Florida State Jake Fisher, OT, Oregon Maxx Williams, TE, Minnesota Shaq Thompson, LB, Washington Phillip Dorsett, WR, Miami Ameer Abdullah, RB, Nebraska T.J. Yeldon, RB, Alabama Tyler Lockett, WR, Kansas State Damarious Randall, S, Arizona State D.J. Humphries, OT, Florida This is close to 50 players. Do you not think that it's more than likely that 20-30 of them had "elite" grades by at least 1 team? And even if it's only 15-20...so? Are you arguing over a few? And do you think that if Team A needs a QB they won't pick a non "elite" graded, but Blue or Red chip and allow another "elite" to fall further?
You are mixing elite with blue chip in order to prove your point and that's just wrong and disingenuous. The argument was regarding elite prospects, and in terms of elite they are mostly in the top 10, maybe top 15. Once you get into 22 you are no longer in elite territory unless a top ten guy falls. That's the truth. Saying there are "Elite" prospects in the second round is just ridiculous. Truth is once you get out of the top 15 I would rather trade down for more picks. Look at all of our best players like reshad jones (5th round), cam wake (undrafted), jay ajayi (5th rd), Kenny Stills (5th rd), jarvis landry (2nd rd), and compare that to some of our more mediocre 1st rounders who were picked after the top 15 like Jawan James and Devante Parker. The only first rounders who have performed well for us coincidentally were all picked within the top 15 (suh, tunsil, pouncey and tannehill). Historically the bottom half of the first is an underperforming group league wide which tells me since we are there we should either trade up into the top ten for a true elite player or trade down for more picks to try and hit on some blue chippers and hiden gems. Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk
I mixed elite with blue chip in order to make a point. If you look up all of those guys you'll find "elite" grades from at least one expert for the majority of them. I've never said that I think it's better to pick lower or that you had just as much chance as hitting on an elite if you pick lower, I've said that a lot of players are getting "elite" grades in this draft. As they do in most (read MOST, not all) drafts.
