I had an epiphany in Orlando and had some very interesting conversations with a Jehovah's witness. I was born and raised Roman Catholic and I'm not converting to Jehovah or anything, but in my opinion I don't think it matters. It doesn't matter if you are Catholic, Protestant, etc. If you believe in God, you believe in God. Anyway.....the man that I had the conversations with was a Vietnam vet (name is Ken) and he was going through a difficult time, like myself. He helped open my eyes and made me realize that I had been blaming God for many years for the tragedies that have befallen my family. It wasn't God's fault though. If anyone is to blame, it's Satan. Yes I know my brothers made those choices. But it was Satan's work. And I told Ken that I would fight Satan in a one on one fight. I'll win too. Edit: I've already beaten him.
Classically Satan is God's opponent. Identified later as the personification of the serpent in the garden, Satan, tries to turn people from God. In Job, Satan is more of an employee, whose job is to prosecute folks who are sinners. Elsewhere in scripture he is refered to as the leader of a group of rebelious angels who tried to usurp God and take over heaven. They were defeated and exiled to Hell. As to your comments, Jeffery. I think I understand what you are trying to say though I do believe that the person of Jesus makes all the difference in how we relate to God, therefore I am and remain a Christian. We may not agree on that but I do applaud your finding peace for your life
Why do I feel like a lot of people here don't like me? I really get that impression because barely anybody responds to my posts now.
I wouldn't call it ignoring. I just couldn't think of a good way to answer your question. I just do not understand the idea that God and Satan are two opposing forces going at each other over souls. I never understood where God ends and Satan begins, in a way. I also never understood how an all powerful god could be so powerless when it comes to Satan. That is the best way I can explain myself now. I do not think I did a good job though.
I respect your opinion. It is just something I do not understand. I enjoy understanding or at least increasing my understanding of other people's opinions. I did add the part "If it works for people, more power to them," mostly because I did not want to offend people. I read your story for the first time and I have no idea what it would be like to be in your shoes. I do remember when I was two blaming god for my Uncle's death. There is a part of me that wonders if that is the moment I made the decision to never be a part of organized religion.
Just put it this way.....you don't ever want to be in my shoes. But thanks for taking the time to read the story.
its all based on free will. its up to the person to what exactly satan does and the degree he is involved in our lives, but it has to be within the context of free will. for example, if i punch my wife, satan didnt make me do it. i decided to do it. some people substitute the specific satan for the general Evil its unclear the extent that god will judge us for our decisions that take place in a corrupted world what is pretty clear, then, is that this current world is not god's, but belongs to "satan." satan is allowed for a time. think of it at the story of Job but on a global scale, only we have been redeemed by jesus. why? it all circles back to free will hope that helps
We do have free will. In other words, I can give a helping hand when I see someone in need......or I can spit in their face and basically tell them to go f*** themselves. The good samaritan vs the bad intentioned. The hand over the fist. I choose the former.
I applaud your actions Jeffery imho it matters less on the road you take and more on the destination you seek. God is waiting and all we have to do is open the door. God bless. Ron
Since I didn't grow up with it, I do not think I will ever understand it. I always thought God came off bad in the story of Job. I also do not understand how hell can exist of we already were redeemed by jesus. Thank you for your explanation.
One reason why there must be a hell is the story of creation. God made all things good. When someone befouls creation by sin God is obliged by His love for creation, to expell them. Rejection of God's free gift of Grace in Jesus has always been understood to be a possibility. As to Job, one of the most interesting books in the whole of the Bible. That both Judaism and Christianity let it stand in the canon is one of the strongest arguments for a Holy Spirit! Seriously, I do not disagree that the view of God in Job is different than the rest of the Bible. I still recognize him as God but yes it is a different view.
god was challenged by satan, saying that job was only faithful because he was rich and was blessed. god took it away, yet job remained faithful, proving god right there are lots of lesson in that story, another is that the bad things that happen in our lives arent because god is punishing us for being unfaithful i dont believe in hell as it is traditionally defined and i dont think the jehovah's witnesses that jeffrey talked to do either im not your convential christian lol. i have no church. im sort of a christian existentialist with Kant's idea of god as my baseline and foundation whenever my faith falters
So this is where the idea that God is testing our faith then? It seems that one of the lessons is that when bad things are happening in our lives God is betting.
oh i see what you meant, about him playing with lives what i meant if he allows evil and randomness, but believes that you will get through it. the "test" is really in our own minds i mean, did the story of Job really happen the way it says, i cant say with 100% confidence.
God made Hell as a good "jail" to seperate folks from the rest of creation. Keep in mind that the folks who first read Genesis understood creation to be pretty much restricted to Earth and thus the metaphors sometimes break down. The "waters under the earth" line in Genesis is the place where chaos still reigns and is the location of hell. In the Genesis 1 creation story, God doesn't so much create everything (ex nihilo creation, that is "out of nothing") but orders the primordial chaos. Later it is understaood that everything is a part of creation but the mixing brings some confusion. I chalk it up to limitations on language and human understanding. My problem with the Job story is right there. If taken alone it makes God seem arbitrary and capricious. The rest of scripture talks about God's faithfulness in the face of a faithless and perverse people. There is value in the Job story but one should be careful, imo, of asking it too many questions it is ill equipped to answer.
Thank you all for your input. I will be going out for a few hours but I'll be back later tonight to continue the discussion. Until then feel free to keep adding your thoughts. I appreciate all of them.
Let me nit-pick a little bit here for the sake of illustration. The title of this thread is "I found God". Now granted, I know what Jefferey means when he says that but let's all think a little. The phrase "I found..." seems to suggest that it is all about us and what we have done doesn't it? More properly, it should be "I came to understand betterwhere God has always been"...or "God has opened my eyes"... or something like that. That way God is the actor and we are the one acted upon. The reason I picked this nit is because theology is a language driven science. It only has words and thus we who practice theology try to be very precise in their use. I am not criticizing anyone but trying to make all of us see the need for care in words and how they are applied and this thread seemed like a good place.
Ohio, I understand that point of view. I guess I could have titled it "God was always there for me and I was just blind."
A question. I've been taught and believe that God was at my door (heart) and all I had to do was open up to him. In other words "seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be given." Which, to me means, although God will change and lead me yet I must be the instigator. God wants me to want him in my life and this is where our free will comes into play.
I'm actually studying Kant and his opinions on organised religion at the moment. I'll give you props straight off because Kant I find is a difficult philosopher to get your head around. What is it about his theories on God that you find interesting?
At the risk of high jacking this into a different direction, let me give you an answer. If we need to move this we will. The concern is that we don't say WE have to do something or add something to the cross of Jesus in order to be made right before God. That then becomes a works rightouesness issue and seems to fly in the face of Romans 3. What Jeff said about discovering something that had always been there but we couldn't see it is acctually right on imo. I like to think of the John passage where Jesus enters the locked room and think that He comes in whether I invite Him or not and offers me peace. The philosophy here is about at the edge of my capacity for words and close logic. Kant is interesting but for me is strongly constrained to his time and situation.
its been a little while since i read him and i agree its a bit hard. i took and intro to philosophy class my freshman year of college. i pretty much owe my understanding to my professor that broke it down for us...he spent a lot of time on him what i took from it is the idea that we really cant "know" that god exists even though some can prove it in different logical forms. its kinda back to what ohio said earlier about things being beyond our understanding. even if we "imagine" Him, its only because He is beyond us. at least thats what i think lol where i differ is that while i think God is necessary for a stable society, i also think religion is also needed. we can derive morality, but without a written and practiced code in some kind or organized way, i dont see it possible. i dont think Kant would agree what i meant before about it being my baseline, is that no matter how i feel, i never doubt the value of religion on civilization. atheistic and purely secular societies become narcissistic, destructive and suicidal in my estimation. i also think that Kant would argue that the absence of God is we see the replacement into the belief in the care-taking powerful State or the fervor for the environment. maybe its our minds gone crazy trying to fill a void if you are currently reading him, you probably have a better understand than i
