i just....dont know....what to think.

I will let the Christians on board give you their side of this. All I will say is that I had pretty much all the same questions and they were never answered sufficiently for me, which is why I lost the faith.

Maybe they can give you answers you'd find useful.

 

It's not a big issue unless you chose to make it one. Being religious or not is a purely personal decision and it has little to do with whether or not you take everything you read in the Bible for granted. You might chose to interpret it as metaphorical. It's about the message, not the logic. You might also chose to interpret it as pure nonsense. Or you might take it literately and say, the heck with logic and common sense. It's completely up to you and no matter what anyone else - here in this thread or out there in real life (tm) - tells you, it's something you have to work out for yourself.

To me, it sounds a lot like you're agnostic. Nothing wrong with that. I'm one myself

Bottom line is: You don't have to believe everything the Bible says to believe in God. And you don't have to discard everything not to. There's really only three choices: You either come to the conclusion that you do believe there's a higher entity or you don't or you simply don't know.

 

personally i think religious texts are meant to be dealt with symbolically and not as truth. but i'm not christian.

i don't really 'subscribe' to any one particular faith but have taken many things i believe from many faiths and this is what has shaped my thought process on faith today. a lot of this study has been done independently because as i hear it if you were to show up to any religious establishment and say "hey i just want to hang around for a few weeks and see what you guys are up to" would raise a lot of eyebrows. i've gone to http://www.sacred-texts.com and have found religious books and have read passages (or the entire thing) and have formed my own opinions and i have to say... i don't really think i fit in anywhere either. i'm not even sure what to call myself.. i'm not nothing yet i'm not "something" either.

i can't explain these things to you because i don't consider myself christian nor do i really follow western religions for the most part. i'm more into eastern religions (taoism, etc). what i can tell you is your questioning your spirituality and things others have told you is a very healthy thing to do. it is absurd to take things on blind faith IMO. my mom raised me with the quote "god wants spiritual fruits not religious nuts". and even if someone doesn't believe in god i think that the general sentiment is true.

as to the holes in the story.. i don't know what to tell you. this is where i think the symbolism comes through.. look deeper than the face value of the story.

just my thoughts.

edit:

as to what you should believe.. just do some research. if something feels right run with it. if it doesn't then you know it's not for you.

 

Sick, I wish I could answer all your questions, but I'm just not eloquent or knowledgeable enough to give any good answers.
I know what I believe and what I get out of the Bible, but it's so hard to put it into words on a forum like this.
I think this is where Pastor Keith would be the best help to you.
It's a good post and you wrote it well.
Good luck in you search for answers.
I'm sorry I'm not any help to you.

 

it takes time chris.

you have experienced a moment of this when your son was born.

it is not belief you are lacking, it is faith.

belief is explainable; faith is not. faith is what happened when your son was born. if it is there then it can be there now. and it will be found.

edit:

you have to allow it from all angles of yourself; if you base it off conditions it will not be there as fully as it should be.

 

Noah's ark...the ark, actually, was pretty huge. If you took baby animals on board, it would reduce alot of the problem. Secondly, no says that there were two of say, every type of dog. Most likely, there were just two dogs. Same with other types of animals.

Dinosaurs in the Bible? Sure, the Bible talks, in Job, about a creature called Leviathon, that lived in the ocean. If you read the account, it sounds much like a dinosaur. I believe there are other accounts as well.

David and Goliath? Do you believe that there couldn't have been giants? I mean, seriously, we have people today that stand 7+ feet tall. Why couldn't there at one time have been a race of men who were giants?

Parting of the Red Sea? Well, that falls into the category of miracle. I can't scientifically explain that to you.

Adam and Eve and repopulation? Well, if you take Scripture at it's word, then Adam and Eve were created perfect. This would mean that they wouldn't have had any genetic abnormalities that exist today, which is why today committin incest almost always results in defects. Today, if you had a child with your sister, all the genetic defects that you both share, would become dominant, even though in you and your sister separately, they are recessive. If Adam and Eve had no genetic defects present, then having children together wouldn't have been a big deal...and also their children having children together wouldn't have either. It also wasn't a big deal in fairly recent history for cultures to have cousins marrying.

When a baby dies, it's not God letting the child die. I mean, I suppose, in some way, it is, since he didn't stop the child from dying. However, man has free will, and God allows man to exercise their free will. So, when a man does something, it can have repurcussions. I think that too many times people want to attribute something that happens, be it good or bad, to God. Sometimes, though, when something bad happens to us, it isn't that God is doing it to us, but, he many times uses those bad times to test us, and make us better Christians. Read the story of Job for a great example of bad things happening to a good man.

 

Chris, I am not learned enough to take on your questions, but I would like to thank you for asking them, and sharing the story of your Grandmother. Your Gramma's story warmed my heart brother.

 

That's a wonderful story.
It sounds to me like you're going to be fine sick.
You also sound like you do believe and that your grandmother was a wonderful witness for you and your family.
It's hard for all of us at times. I'm dealing with a situation right now that has me down bad and I feel like I'm hanging on by a thread. I do have faith and hope that it will be ok, but right now, it's very very hard to be positive.
You hang on. Maybe find you some good concordances and a Bible like the NIV version and hunt until you find your answers. I love the NIV version, I can understand it so much better. Don't wear yourself out studying and digging, that only makes things worse. Just take your time, talk to some one you can trust and then just try and digest it all.
There's a lot to digest. Sometimes I think I'll never learn enough, but I keep plugging away at it.
My thoughts and prayers are with you.

 

The New International Version (NIV) is a translation made by more than one hundred scholars working from the best available Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts. It was conceived in 1965 when, after several years of study by committees from the Christian Reformed Church and the National Association of Evangelicals, a trans-denominational and international group of scholars met at Palos Heights, Illinois, and agreed on the need for a new translation in contemporary English. Their conclusion was endorsed by a large number of church leaders who met in Chicago in 1966. Responsibility for the version was delegated to a self-governing body of fifteen Biblical scholars, the Committee on Bible Translation, and in 1967, the New York Bible Society (now International Bible Society) generously undertook the financial sponsorship of the project.

http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=31

 

Not foolish at all. I had to be told about it to.
Its the New International Version study Bible. It's much easier to get the meanings of things. Plus, it has footnotes, articles etc. through out that help explain verses and many other things in the Bible. I have worn mine out hunting things.
I have compared it to the King James version and I find no difference in any of the meanings of the verses or anything else. I have a lot tell me the King James version is the only one to use. I do use it, but my study Bible puts things more into perspective for me.
Hope I helped.

 

Thanks, you explained it to him way better than I did.
I didn't know all of that. I just know I love it.

 

I just pulled it off that site I have linked. I didn't know what it meant either.

 

Just a couple random thoughts, Chris:

The Bible should not be taken as pure history. There is some verifiable history in it, but it is experience viewed through the prism of faith.

Also, Christianity is not a house of cards in that uncertainty on a point here and there does not invalidate the whole premise of a loving creator.

As far as science poking holes in faith, I'd suggest doing some reading on George Washington Carver. His was a brilliant scientific mind who was motivated to discover and apply by his faith. It's very inspirational stuff.

I can't stress how big that moment with your son is. On the road of faith, you hit these landmarks that, although they can't be explained, are undeniable validations of your belief.

Thanks for asking questions, and remember that doubt is something we all experience. It doesn't mean there's nothing worth believing in.

 

Wonderfully put Doc.
I read a book called "The Case for Christ" written by some man named Stroebel hope it's spelled right. If you want to know about, I'll try to find the info on it. It's a great book.

 

Great post.....faith is defined as belief without evidence...belief is cerebral .... faith requires a spiritual value rather than something quantifiable ....... m2c ... great post.

 

To me, its not about God, per se. I think the idea of a God is far too complex for us to understand. There has to be something out there IMO. We didnt just come out of thin air. I am not religious at all but yet I find major flaws in athiest thinking as well. I consider myself an agnostic. I dont see religion as necessary to understand the concept of God, maybe it works for some, but personally its not necessary. Alot of so-called rules, commandments, what have you, are really for people who believe in having an orderly lifestyle that doesnt work for everyone. Alot of what is in the bible(and other religious texts) suggest to me that they were indeed written by men who wanted to take control of their population by instilling the fear of a God and by establishing religion. All religion is a beauracracy between man and "God", even though I vew the beauracracy as a false facade. To me, religion has nothing to do with the actual God, its just a cash-cow, way to ascend to a position of power kind of thing. I dont even think half of the preisthood believes in the bible or even their own religion. I certainly dont think many of our leaders are religious either. Bill Clinton mightve showed up at church once in a while to show voters hes like them, but I dont think he was really religious. Same with poppy Bush. Im not sure about Dubya, he mightve really believed the bible. In addition, in a lot of ways God cant be so stupid that he could impose strict rules for us to follow only to lead to 99% of population to wind up in hell because it is impossible to follow everything the bible wants you to do/not do. Religion to me kind of smacks God in the face, making him look like a shallow, uncaring God who isnt fair and isnt reasonable. I think God is reasonable, if were made in his image, wouldnt God be much more complex than cut and dry most religions paint him to be? So in conclusion, you dont have to "get religion" to "get God." You can believe whatever you choose to believe and I dont think God will punish you for doing so. I think as long as you truly are a good person at heart that also has faults that you can overcome by learning from them, I really dont think youll go to hell by not going to church, becoming christain, by having premartial sex, ect. It all depends on your perspective and what you feel is right.

 

I'm 26 and I often feel that way.
Its easy to keep the faith without questioning, but its even more special when you keep it with the questions, after exploring our world, etc. Whatever you decide, you shouldn't feel guilty for doing so, or for feeling conflict. It doesn't make you a bad person, it just makes you human...

 

just try it! The best way to know if christianity is real is to try it. i know people that got saved from just reading the bible. i know others that started with a prayer.

i challenge you to say this prayer when you're ready and can say it and really mean it. I believe you'll find christianity to be real and life changing.

you can change this prayer to your own words (i reccomend doing this b/c it will have more meaning and it will be from your heart) But here's an example of one:

God i want to have a relationship with you and really get to know you. i don't know where to start. i acknowlege that you exist and i believe in my heart that you sent your Son Jesus to die for me and raised Him from the dead so that i can have eternal life. i confess this with my mouth and believe it in my heart. i ask you to come into my life and change me. Forgive me for my sins and teach me to have a relationship with you and be changed by it. Help me understand the bible and be changed by it. In the name of Jesus i pray. Amen!


after doing this i recommend that you read the New Testament (the second half of the Bible; it starts with the book of Matthew). i also recommend the New International version (NIV) because its easy to understand. i recommend reading the New Testament b/c it tells the story of Jesus when he was here on earth. It tells about his life, death, and resurrection and goes on to show how christians lived after the death and resurrection of Christ. I recommend the New Testament b/c if you said that prayer and really meant it, you'll have an encounter with Christ, therefore its fitting that you read about Christ in the New Testament.

 

You have to research these things.

By research, I mean look into as many religions as possible. When you look though, don't look for facts, look for what feels right.

You are looking for faith not answers. Facts are not relevant to the process.

know: verb (used with object)
1. to perceive or understand as fact or truth; to apprehend clearly and with certainty

believe: –verb (used without object)
1. to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so

The bold part in the "believe" definition is key. Knowing for a fact, that Jesus/Mohammad/Buddha/Don Shula is god, then you don't really have faith in that...you know it.

This is why its so important to keep facts out of faith and faith out of facts, it dilutes each of them. Something can either be red or blue, not both. If you mix them, you have neither blue nor red, you have purple.

Some people in your life and on this board will tell you this is not true. They will tell you they know their faith is true. These people have to tell themselves and others that, because their faith isn't as strong as they may believe. They need evidence. I feel for them.

We all know a person who can't be trusted. They may be a family member or friend or whatever. The facts are they've lied, cheated and stole on more than one occasion. The faith is, if you help them one more time, they'll do the right thing. Maybe they will, maybe they won't, but we have that faith in spite of the facts, and those facts are facts regardless of our faith. Religion is the same thing. Whatever faith you end up with, will be there regardless or in spite of the facts, yet that faith won't change the facts. In the end, chose a religion like you chose your favorite pair of jeans...regardless of the holes or the style, its what fits you the best...the most comfortable.

I happen to be an Atheist, so if you have any questions about that route, I'll be more than happy to answer them for you. Ohio is an amazing Christian and I'm sure he can answer your questions there. Pagan may even be able to answer your Wicca related questions (tell him you learn better with pictures of half naked women ). The only real suggestion I would give though, is don't search skeptically.

 

You are in a very amazing time. A time where you can go deeper into christianity or away from it entirely.

How do I say this without sounding all New Agey and fruity? While you do your research look for what is right for you. Looking for what is wrong with chrisitanity or some other path if you go that way will just breed more hatred and confusion in your heart.

It is my belief that the truth is so amazing and unable to be understand by the words of man that when there are beings who have awakened to the truth they tell their stories and are written down. Even though the truth is the same the interpretretations are always different and it is so grand that only certain aspects are being able to convey. Then people make religions out of them.

Coming from that belief it is my advice to look for what is right for you with love your heart. Feeling angry or betrayel from Christianity or some other faith will just harm you deeply.

Also I would ask you, what is more important? That the stories be historically accurate, or that the meanings of the stories are true for you?

Myself I knew at the age of 5 that Christianity was not right for me. It never felt right. Still you can live an amazing life living Christ like.

 

IMO the bible is a collection of stories, some of which happened and some of which were meant to be illustrative. I don't think any of it should be taken verbatim or as the last word on anything. All of it has been subject to the interpretation of individual writers and/or editors and/or translators. And I think we should have different interpretations. I believe in the saying that when everybody thinks the same, nobody is doing any thinking.

That being said I have a strong faith in God. It's what makes sense for me. I think that what you do matters and that our journey doesn't end when we die. I think the truth lies in the similarities that exist among almost all religions rather than the differences. I think the differences are the product of men and political interests trying to control others. I don't buy that God would punish genuinely good people for having different beliefs. I think there are more similarities than people realize. Once you start looking for them they become more and more obvious as simply different interpretations of the same concepts.

So I would suggest that you examine your faith but don't just limit it to the bible. Many of the stories in there are traceable or very similar to older sources anyways. The gods had different names but the lessons were similar. So read, study, ask questions, but above all don't be afraid to think for yourself. I think there's a great deal to be gained from the seeking. In fact, it may be more important than the actual answers.

 

I'm not too philosophical about these things but my advice is to just go with what you feel is right. Don't feel pressure to belong to a group just because of where you live, your family were all members of that group, etc. Remember that this is a world full of different people and there is no reason to stress about this...either you are a Christian or you aren't. No one says you have to be and don't be pressured into it. Living in the "Bible Belt" as you are I know what you are talking about because Christianity is everywhere and you feel the pressure to fit in. I knew from about the time I was 10 that a lot of the stuff I heard didn't make sense to me but I kept along with it because I was scared not to (because of the repercussions I had been taught and possible family and friend backlash). Eventually, however, I realized I had to do what was right for me and no one else in terms of what I believed and I made that move. That's the position you're in now Chris and my advice is to do what you feel is right and don't be pressured into doing something just because its what you are supposed to do.

 

ill take a short, summary stab at this to draw it back a bit

imo, the benefits of the judeo-christian belief system transcend the minutiae of specific bible stories. a lot of people fall into this tradition because of their opinion of the benefits of this belief system on civilization and society

secondly, while somewhat obvious, this point i think is lost on people. with things like the ark, you are criticizing it from a rational, non-belief POV. for example, suppose for a moment that god exists, has created the universe and has from time to time directly involved himself into the affairs of humans and the planet. if supposing that, then why would it be any stretch of the imagination that god could do things like have his animals collect into an ark and keep lions from eating other animals or anything like that?

he is god! why would some part of the bible being unbelievable prevent you from accepting it. none of it, including god existing, is observably rational! none of it proposes to be rational

 

then why did he stop?

 

who says he did? apparently he stopped inspiring men to write in the bible, but it doesnt mean he took a vacation

 

Stop what exactly?
Just curious.

 

unbelievable miracles

 

He still does! There's lots of reports of people being raised from the dead! the media doesn't like to talk about stuff like this. you can hear about in on christian websites or christian tv channels like tbn, god tv, cbn ect.

 

Sick you sound just like I did, so much so it was scary reading your post. Just like you I questioned and tried to tie the scientific into the religious, asked the same questions and got the same answers. So I can understand how frustrating and lost you can feel. Now that I have started my walk with God I can see that it was God knocking at my hearts door, and it took me awhile......years to answer.

The day it happened I was at a Civil War re-enactment and went to the church service. This is the hard part for me to explain, but here it goes. That morning things felt different, and as the service was coming to an end and we sang Amazing Grace God sat beside me. Sounds crazy huh, but no body can tell me different. I felt this warmth and unbelievable almost over powering love, and when the pastor call for anyone who wanted to be saved I don't remember how but I was at the alter on my knees. I cried so much I could have ended most droughts. And you know what, all those questions I had did not matter anymore. I still have questions, but now I know that they will be answered either here on Earth or in Heaven.

So after all that you would think I was in church every Sunday, well it still took me a few years to find a church I belonged in and get baptized. But I still knew God loved me and I believe he knew I would find the right church at the right time.

So that's my story, it may sound a little over the top but it is true and not embellished to make it sound any different then the way it happened. I am not saying that it will happen like that for you, because everyone has their own personal experience and I am sure it is different for everyone. Also I don't take to hints very well so maybe God knew I was on the verge and a subtle hint would not work with me. But I hope you keep asking questions and listen to your heart. Our minds sometimes plays trick on us, but our heart never lies.

 

Just beautiful Ducken.
God bless you.

 

I have the same questions, they're normal. Once you drift closer to the side that says faith alone isnt a good enough answer it becomes easier to just admit you dont believe in the Bible. Or the other way if your search for answers leads you in that direction. I think we're so conditioned in this society to be Christian, or to at least believe in God, that it's hard to fully detach from that position.

 

Thank you for sharing your story Ducken. My story though different in timing is close in my search and why. God has touched me personally several times and the Devil once (A truly scary happening-a fear I've never known before or since down to my very core). I have never shared this with anyone before but three very close people, my exwife (we were married when this took place), the woman who I now love, and one very close friend. Why do I share it now? I can't answer that but to say I felt I had to do so, you are welcome to believe it or not. No, I don't think I'm crazy but I was afraid to my very core and knew I was in the presence of pure evil.

Sick, it is my humble opinion that you and only you can find your personal way to God. While each of us may at times help to guide you no one can open that door to your heart that God stands before but you. It is a trip that each of us take and while the group will/can help to keep you strong when/if doubt sets in only you can open yourself to the process. If your heart is open you will have a wonderful journey and God will be at your side. I hope you will notice I didn't at any time use the Bible. Facts and stories, true or not, will not open your heart to faith yet faith will open you to see facts in a different light. JMHO.

 

I honestly believe that Amazing Grace is a wonderfully divine song. I feel so connected to the source of ALL THAT IS when I listen to that song.