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I'm out on Tannehill

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by djphinfan, Dec 28, 2014.

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  1. DePhinistr8

    DePhinistr8 Season Ticket Holder

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    Dude get outta here with that...a one in a million play by Brady is your basis of comparison? Tannehill was the 5th leading rusher amongst QBs this season. I know he needs to learn to manipulate the pocket better, but there needs to be some semblance of a pocket for him to be able to do anything.
    And this mess about 1 read and run...that's exactly how you stunt development
     
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  2. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I hear ya bro. And I feel your pain and frustration. I just think you are barking up the wrong tree here. I doubt I'll watch the recording of this game again on my PVR.. Too painful. But I recall way too many times today saying wow.. Our OL is getting this kid killed.. Not damn. This kid is just hanging around too long. There was almost never a pocket. Never a place for him to escape. Our OL was dominated in every way.

    I'll agree though... Lazor should call more roll outs etc... But that's not the fault of the QB. Given the circumstances and what he had to work with today... Especially with Wallace being a ***** and on the bench... I give him tons of credit. Our problems right now lie on coaching.. Defense. And the OL. In Amy order you choose after coaching being #1. I give lazor credit for tannehill passing improvement. But outside of that. He can go too. Some of them calls today were brutal.
     
  3. finwin

    finwin Active Member

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    We got out coached and out played. On the big Return for a TD, Jordan Tripp goes for the ball instead of making the tackle. We couldn't stop Decker our answer was moving Grimes on him, next play, first down becuase of the defensive pics we couldn't adjust to. Rush four they get a sack. We rush seven and can't get a stop. Philbin makes the right choice early in the game to punt and we get a big turnover. Later he makes the wrong choice for a long FG and it's like a turnover. When I look at the stats on this game, it was on ST, and the secondary failing to adjust. The OL coach failing to protect the QB in the second half.
     
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  4. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    don't turn this into that BS, I'm right here explaining my thought process, maybe he understands where I'm coming from and you don't, maybe I'm right and your wrong, maybe your right and I'm wrong..but I have been consistent about these points and Tannehill is not showing me that these points are reactionary to emotional losses..I Think these are real issues, and here is the main one, you have a qb playing strictly from the pocket when you have an oline that cannot protect the pocket...you have a coordinator who is calling a game strictly from the pocket when you have a QB skillset that can offer so much more..those are real issues.
     
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  5. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    . I agree, he'll get his extension, but I think. We should be looking for comp in the draft.
     
  6. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    They seemed to blitz a fair share, why aren't we checking to hot reads? Is Lazor limiting what Ryan can check in and out of? There is a lot to all this that unfortunately Joes like us aren't privy too. But I can say I rarely see an audible.
     
  7. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Larry my point is about isolating his play.
     
  8. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    It's been reported that Tannehill isn't allowed to audible...
     
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  9. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Sounds to me then that your issues are more with lazor and philbin than tannehill... He's only running what's called...

    I agree. No reason to continuously call plays that leave him in that joke of a pocket the OL is giving... But that's not on him. That's coaching and game planning. Which is.. Done by coaches. That's the real issue here
     
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  10. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    bro I promise you that I'm trying to find the positives but I can't just convince myself that my concerns aren't real, I can't ignore what I'm seeing to make me feel good about the future, I want a dynasty, this is not about winning stupid regular season games, I can win some with Ryan tannehill, but when the skillset is not being utilized in losses, when the qb never takes upon himself in losses then I have to say what I see, otherwise what am I doing here..I know I have been wrong about evals before, but the game is to be right more than the other guys, I'm confident in that regard...I had no bias towards Ryan, I want to like him, but I likei said earlier, I feel like there is a level of play that the qb needs to display when protection breaks down, and after three years I'm not seeing that level consistently enough..therefore I don't believe we can win a championship
     
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  11. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    If the defense would have played a MEDIOCRE game, This wouldn't even be a conversation. Literally. Just mediocre was all they needed. Couldn't do it.
     
  12. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I sat right behind him, he doesn't anticipate pressure, he doesn't move his feet well enough or quick enough, and he surely has no instinct as to when to say fu$$ it tuck it, and run..these are things I see on tv, and in person are only magnified.
     
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  13. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    IF that report is true, then the whole offensive staff should be fired. Stupidest thing I've ever heard.
     
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  14. heylookatme

    heylookatme Well-Known Member

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    A lot of teams -- GOOD teams -- don't allow their QBs to audible. I'm not a fan, but he's not the only one.
     
  15. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    hey bro let me pose a question...you feel confident going on the road in playoff atmosphere with this qb?
     
  16. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    When you already have an OL that struggles blocking, the inability to check out of it or call a hot read is crippling to an offense. This needs to change if true.
     
  17. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    that's not a flattering statement, his skillset was completely underutilized again today by his coach and himself...looked like a pendulum playing football.
     
  18. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Again, DJ, what do you want him to do? With the way the line had been blocking, the only thing he could do would be to snap the ball, and abandon trying to pass, and simply run immediately.
     
  19. rtl1334

    rtl1334 New Member

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    We've been over this countless times but so few seem to get it.

    It's not that he doesn't sense pressure, it's that the rush gets to him so fast and with so few rushers that there's nothing he can do. The plays have yet to develop and you have LBs in the short to intermediate range waiting to lay him out.

    It's not as if he scrambles and suddenly there's open lanes all over the field.
     
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  20. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I feel confident with the QB...Not the other parts of the team.
     
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  21. rtl1334

    rtl1334 New Member

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    Me personally, I think we've seen enough to talk extension.

    There are maybe 10 QBs on the planet that can play the position better than him and many of them will be retiring in the next 3 to 5 seasons.
     
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  22. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I was out on the coach after the raven game..so I'm pretty much miserable this offseason..lol....

    Ryan has another year before we truly have to decide so I'll try to find some hope in hickey investing all resources on offense to protect this static qb.
     
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  23. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    DJ, how dare you think that a guy who has never won big will never win big. Lol.

    Those of you telling DJ this is knee-jerk are way off-base. Tannehill has largely been the same player since he got here. In fact he's largely been the same player since he started playing the position at A&M. The knee-jerkers are the ones who creamed themselves after watching him torch the mighty Vikings after we already missed the playoffs. Or maybe you refer to a play or two, or last year's game against the Pats. Keep focusing on the exceptions, y'all, see how that goes for you.

    There are several things about Tannehill's game that to me create some reservations about him. One of those is, as dj said, just a gut-level eye test. Does he look the part? When you see him does he look like an natural playmaker? Do you get that feeling in your gut that he's the man? Do you see a guy who elevates and leads his teammates? I don't see that guy nearly as much as I should. Once in a while, yeah...but not on a week-to-week basis.

    He struggles to create big plays (ypa), he isn't consistent utilizing his athleticism, his pocket presence is meh, his leadership is meh, his effect on the culture since he was drafted is meh, he's inconsistent week-to-week, and he doesn't win at an elite level. These aren't new trends. This has all been happening for three or even five years if you look at his college career.

    Say what you want about supporting cast, but great QBs tend to overcome that, and great QBs flash their winning ways early in their careers. It's the most important position on the field, and perhaps the most important person in the organization. Go back through all the QBs who are making deep playoff runs, or even just guys who are considered 'franchise QBs': all of them made the playoffs within their first three seasons as the starter (Eli, Rivers, Brees, Brady, Ben, Rodgers, Peyton, Wilson, Kaep, Romo, Palmer, MRyan, Cam, Luck, Flacco, Dalton).

    QB is the one position where being decent isn't enough. In fact being decent can be dangerous. I'm a firm believer in the idea that a middling QB can ruin a franchise (or college program), because that guy will do/flash just enough to the point where you won't move on from him...and then his career goes and and you never win big.

    Now, I like Tanny enough and think he should be in the mix next season. He's improved in some areas, and I think his HC is hot garbage. But I have reservations about RT as a franchise QB to the point where I want to bring in some serious competition this offseason (I would draft Hundley at 15, for instance).
     
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  24. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Agree with your opinion for the most part, DJ. Tannehill IMO is an Alex Smith type QB. He needs help to play well, but if you put a good team around him, he can execute.
     
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  25. heylookatme

    heylookatme Well-Known Member

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    What the...
     
  26. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

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    Hell yes. Unfortunately, I can't say the same about our OL, coaching staff, Kickers or defense.
     
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  27. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    I'll start by saying I'm not OUT on Tannehill. I'm very much in, because I think he'll continue to develop and just get better.

    However, I know exactly what DJ is talking about and I'm also concerned about it. When Tannehill sets on his 3 and 5 step drops, he's almost certain to set and remain in that position making it all to easy for the DL to rush him. It's an easy target for the opposition.

    I understand that you cannot use Rodgers as a benchmark. But when you watch the opposition attempt to rush Rodgers, it's like he mind***** the Defensive Lineman by working the pocket all while keeping his eyes downfield and going through his progressions. I remember one play against NE, where Ninkovich wasn't even engaged on the GB Olineman because Rodgers was confusing him so bad.

    Do I expect Tannehill to work the pocket like Rodgers? Of course not. That guy's the best football player on the planet. But I'd like to see him work towards that goal. And like DJ, I'm not seeing the development in that part of his game that I'd like. I blame a lot of this on coaching also.

    But all in all I'm hopeful he'll develop this part of his game like he has on other parts of his game. He's certainly got the tools for it.

    EDIT: And like DJ, I'd like to see Tannehill rack up some more yardage on non-designed runs. Yes, Yes, I know. I want him to be a pocket passer first. But even those guys do break the pocket and make plays out of nothing at times making the defense have to watch out for it on future plays.
     
  28. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    This is tough, because I have seen a lot I liked in RT's progression this year, but I *do* trust DJ's instincts when it comes to players. And he is often first-in with a gut instinct, even when it's unpopular... yet it's very often true.

    Deej, this is one of the very few times I'll be hoping you;re partially wrong....

    I mean, you're right that Tannehill plays without that natural feel for the position. Not a great improviser, not as intuitive as I'd like... but he does enough things very well that he can win. But to win he needs good coaching, and good protection. He is not an elite QB who can overcome those deficiencies enough to carry the team. He is, however, a good QB.

    So.. Deej, you may prove to be right when it really counts. Today, though, no one will want to consider that possibility. It's painful enough to know we are stuck with Philbin and an obtuse owner.
     
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  29. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    He's better than Alex Smith. Alex Smith is scared to throw beyond 5 yards and threw 0 TD's to WR's this season. That's right. Not a single WR from KC caught a TD. Alex Smith is scary bad, in that he is deceives people into thinking he's got talent because he doesn't make many mistakes. Doesn't make any plays either though.


    I find it hard to pinpoint who Ryan Tannehill is as a QB. I'd say below Flacco, above Alex Smith at this point. He's obviously worth investing 2 more years into, given what he's done so far and the improvements he's made. I'd like it if we invested some talent around him before I make a final verdict. This offensive line has been bad for three straight seasons (2012's oline is overlooked in terms of bad play, but they were bad, the writing was on the wall). The WR's no longer fit the scheme, Mike Wallace is an idiot, Clay is hurt and has drop issues, and Lamar Miller is a serviceable back. I feel like we got as much mileage out of this offensive unit as was possible. We still need massive upgrades. While I think Peyton, Brady, Rodgers, etc... would of accomplished more than Tannehill, I don't see any of those guys preforming at the level they currently do with their respective teams as they're so much more talented. And better coached.
     
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  30. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    It is not that I do not want to consider the possibility. Tannehill, as he is right now, isn't where I want him to be. He has a lot of things that I would like to see him improve. Improvisation is defiantly one of them. Feel of the pocket, ability to not take a sack by getting rid of the ball to a runningback's feet, and he can be more aggressive.

    However, I take issue to the idea that the book is written on him. There is nothing in his problems that he cannot improve on. This idea that there are certain skills that are, "unteachable" or "unlearnable" is poppy ****.

    Every year since he has been the starting quarterback, he has gotten better. He has improved nearly every aspect of his game. Even his pocket presence was better this year. It wasn't good by any means, but it was better.

    There is nothing in what DJ has said that has come close to convince me that Tannehill has reached his ceiling. Tannehill has shown enough to convince me that he is the best quarterback Miami has had since Dan Marino. I know people will say, "What about Pennington?" However I like my quarterbacks to not be fragile.
     
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  31. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    I'm still cautiously optimistic on RT. Not "all in", and definitely not 'out'.

    That said, I missed the 4th quarter today. I'd be surprised, however, if one quarter of football drastically altered my overall view on RT.
     
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  32. bran

    bran Senior Member

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    if you watched the second half of the second patriots game, it was the same thing as the 4th quarter of the jets game.
     
  33. Hiruma78

    Hiruma78 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    my op:

    1- this is just dj's obsession (likely not the right word, I mean a very strong interest in a single item, i can't find the correct term now, I am sorry)) for a certain tyupe of QB.

    2- RT, besides his atlethicism, is just not an "improvisational" kind of Qb, period. but pretending that, beacuse he is a good runner, he has to be a wilson-rodgers kind of qb is misleading in my view, it is like pretending that a tall basketball player has to play center, even if his instincts (dribbling, shooting, no rebounding etc) make him a small forward/shooting guard: RT is not that kind of player and you can't force on him (meaning, he can improve, but this will never be a natural thing for him to do)If you think that, withouth that skill, he will never be anything as a QB, that's a (too rigid maybe?) legitimate opinion.

    3- my opinion differs: I think there is NO one way to win. Manning & Brady (but you could argue about Flacco and Eli) are pocket passer and shown you can win that way (but I have to say: I disagree about the "importance" of the brady's run, when we met them. I think that was just ONE play and I think adjustments and our defensive problems - that were not about NE or Brady running, but about how much we sucked in the last 6 weeks, regardless of the team faced - were the reason for our loss) and I think you can visualize in your mind countless time when Brady or Maning stand in a CLEAN pocket for the time necessary to develope the routes. so, IMO, Ryan's tenedency not to run is in no way what will riun him.


    obviously, all of this is an assumption about what we think to know (meaning, Lazor told one time that Ryan would like to run much more... I personally don't believe this too much and I agree with DJ that's not something natural for Tanehill, but.... maybe there is more that we don't know)

    as usual, sorry for my sucky English and happy holidays
     
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  34. LiferYank

    LiferYank New Member

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    Romo made as many bad plays with running around then he made good ones. The difference this year? A good OL.
     
  35. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    What's interesting is that even in the posts in which the original poster is disagreed with, there is inherent but perhaps overlooked agreement, in that the primary counterpoint is that Tannehill needs better protection to function at the level necessary to elevate the team to Super Bowl contention. Isn't that what the original poster is saying, that Tannehill lacks the skill to overcome poor protection like, let's say, Russell Wilson or Aaron Rodgers would? In other words, isn't everyone, the original poster included, saying that Tannehill's game requires extraordinarily good pass protection if the team is going to contend for the Super Bowl? The original poster seems only to be pointing out that he isn't going to overcome the lack of such protection himself, while the folks disagreeing with him seem to be pointing out the same thing, that he simply needs such protection. Are we not reaching a simple consensus agreement, by and large?
     
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  36. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Asking for more read option "keepers" shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what a read option is. Ryan is not a better runner than Miller. No QB is. It's not even close. The only time Ryan should be keeping the ball on the read option is when the D blows it and leaves him unaccounted for. That's it. If he isn't looking at lots of green, he better not be pulling that ball out.


    Your point about roll outs and bootlegs is a good one. He is proven good at throwing them. I suspect the reshuffled line has a lot do with the lack of those.

    Also, do you really see no improvement in his pocket presence from his rookie year? I see a lot.


    He is a pocket QB. There is nothing wrong with that. Manning and Brady. He obviously isn't where they are, but pocket QBs do just fine. He can run a read option, where they could not, that doesn't mean he isn't primarily a pocket passer.
     
  37. LiferYank

    LiferYank New Member

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    To run around and throw a 50%ish completion %. Throw a ton of ints and get hurt constantly.. Aka Vick.
     
  38. LiferYank

    LiferYank New Member

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    And he got the living **** beat out of him.
     
  39. LiferYank

    LiferYank New Member

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    Are you suggesting he has time to make a read and run ( where with no lanes?) behind that crap OL?
     
  40. Hiruma78

    Hiruma78 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    I'd like to add that any comparison with Smith is kind of offensive: if Smith had the kind of production of Ryan in his first 3 years, he would not have been labelled a bust for the major part of his career (looking at his stats is almost embarassing for the guy: obviously he was on a very bad team) and I want to point out that when 49ers made a playoff run with him, the whole system was dumbed down for him and make it easier (not necessarily a bad thing, as a coach, but should say something about Smith and his overall skills).
    Smith never had a 4000 season, just one time more than 20 td and, more than anything, the eye test is damning (even if I am not an expert in any way, but watching him gave me always the feeling that he was being...protected in the system)

    what you should say is that RT is, in his 3rd year, playing like (or clearly better? I think KC would be a better team with Ryan instead of Smith, but this is just a random opinion) an average to almost-good (hey, he netted a 2nd round pick for the 49ers) 9 year veteran that has been in the playoff multiple times and, seeing as Tannehill has kept improving, the odds are he is gonna be at least a little better of smith

    again, sorry for my English
     
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