Alright, a bold statement but imho a true one, here is why:
-our problem was not Wr play per se, it was the lack of a competent Defense, Karlos Dansby and 7 defensive draft picks, along with the subtraction of Gibril Wilson and Joey Porter and the addition of Mike Nolan should be enough to improve the defense.
-Several Defensive Players are reaching their age of NFL maturity, guys like Langford, Merling, Starks is moving into yr 3 as a starter, and Vontae Davis and Sean Smith with a year under their belt should be much better at not surrendering the back breaking Big Play this season.
-Will Allen is healthy again.
-Cameron Wake will replace Joey Porter, we all know how productive he was a part time player, more snaps should equal even greater production.
As to the Offense:
-Chad Henne is moving into Yr 2 as a starter and White, Thiggy and Penne only makes the Qb position that much stronger this year.
-Ronnie Brown will be healthy
-Most importantly, we added Incognito and the LG position has several competitors who could easily start for us, or other teams, the interior Guard play was a thorn in the offenses side later in the season.
-Brian Hartline showed he has big play ability, with Ted Ginn gone he would have had a clear path to starting.
Now before this is taken completely out of context, I'm jacked that we landed Brandon Marshall to replace Ted Ginn, however my point is we would have been a good team this year even without him.
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RickyNeverInhaled, Onehondo, Pauly and 7 others like this.
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I don't doubt we can win without him, but he's good for at least 2 games a year IMO. So if he misses time we are going to feel it as a lot of our success this season is resting on his shoulders.
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I'm not so sure, think of it this way, we won 7 games last season with Ted Ginn basically producing nothing at Wr, if BMarsh wasn't added, then Hartline and Greg C are the starting Wr's, and either one is good for more than Ginn's 450 yds or so in an entire season, heck both went over TG's 450 yds and that was with splitting passes amongst them.
Toss in the Oline and Defense should be greatly improved in terms of consistency, toss in Ronnie B and RW and without BMarsh we would be an improved version of the 08 team in terms of talent on both sides of the ball.
Surprisingly, the only newly created weakness is on Kick Returns, Ginn's 2 TD's and 1400 yds was high production that has to be replaced by "someone".
Marshall just kicks that up three notches.:up:Puka-head, Disnardo and dolfan7171 like this. -
That's a big time reach. We can only hope Cameron Wake can be as productive as Joey Porter. But honestly, it's not likely. There's a reason he was limited in snaps. He showed flashes of brilliance, but in my estimation he still has a ways to go before he can be as productive as Joey Porter.
I know you'll claim it's not, but this thread just strikes me as a backhanded remark against Marshall. From other comments I've seen from you it seems like you're not thrilled he's here. Personally I just don't understand why you would even try to make this point. Brandon Marshall is a Dolphin, and like it or not we will win and we will lose (hopefully not too much) with him.dolfan7171 likes this. -
That sounds great except for the fact that Ginn played a major part in both Jet wins. W/O him I know we don't win the second game and I'm not so sure we don't lose the first one as well.Puka-head likes this.
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Wake was as productive as Porter in 1/5th of the snaps, Porter had 3 sacks more, and 9 less pressures.
You are projecting, I'd thank you to stop.
"Would Brian Hartline starting in place of Ted Ginn offer more production than Ginn offered?".
The answer, like the Porter answer is clearly "yes', in fact it could be said both were already more productive than the veterans that they replaced.Disnardo likes this. -
Hmm..possibly, the Jets were in the backfield pressuring Henne in the 2nd game, better oline play makes that a different game.
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Well sure. If any other facet of the game steps up we win w/o him. Still doesn't take away what he did and more importantly what we would miss if we didn't have him or Marshall.
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And really all Porter did was rush the passer. He constantly failed to set the edge against the run and was terrible in coverage. So replacing one pass rush specialist with another is a wash at worst IMO. :hi5:padre31 likes this.
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Hartline wound up being our best deep threat by the end of the season, he really did play at a high level in the last 6 games.
As for TG, I was not a Ginn basher, in fact I loved his "X" factorness on Special teams and think we will miss that this year.
by the end of the season, Jake Grove, Justin Smiley and Donald Thomas had more or less been replaced by Joe Berger, and a rotation at Guard with no real starter, this year that has changed completely. -
Yep, and add in the Rooks at Lb as well, and perhaps Charlie Anderson discovers his inner James Harrison.
Porter was more of a crafty veteran rather than a real threat off of the edge last year, Wake can menace any Tackle in the NFL in man on man blocking. -
If this hypothetical situation was true, I think the main reason we'd have a winning record would be 1) easier schedule, then 2) better play in LB and CB/safety
padre31 likes this. -
If you watched Porter play he also seemed to take a LOT of plays off too. I wont miss him at all.
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I agree.
If the question is would we still win some games than sure. If the question is we would win as many games w/o him as we would with him then I find that very hard to believe. -
In a statistic like sacks, 3 more is significant. You also have to factor in the fact that Porter played in many more running downs than Cam Wake. Stands to reason Cam is going to be teeing up on the QB more often than Porter was. Porter had other responsibilities than rushing the QB. Will Cam be as effective in those areas? I honestly don't know. But Porter is a talented player, as much as some want to rewrite his history now that he's gone. I hope Cam can fill in and make us forget all about him, but he has his work cut out for him.
So you admit this thread is a backhanded remark against Marshall? I apologize then. You think we could win without Brandon Marshall. Our FO disagrees or they don't give up 2 2nd rounders. I agree with them. Our offense was nowhere near as explosive as it needed to be to compete in today's NFL.
Neither is clear. Hartline had a great rookie year, but what makes you think he can be a #1 WR? That's assuming a huge surge in production. Would he be able to even duplicate last years production with the added pressure of being the only speedy threat at WR? Maybe, but that's no guarantee at all. -
Not particularly, Porter had 755 plays to Wake's 167 and still had 10 less pressures than Wake, and Porter's play against the run was already abysmal.
What are you talking about? I give Marshall neither a backhand or a forehand, I think he was a solid pickup and should help the offense tremendously, what I'm suggesting is even "if" he had not be acquired the 2010 dolphins would have won anyway, there is a good core team here even without BMarsh, adding him only improves the whole offense.
No guarantees in the NFL either way MonstB.MonstBlitz likes this. -
That and adding Incognito and Mike Nolan.
But believe me when I say I'm happy to open the season at Buffalo and Minnesota with Brandon Marshall so he can take advantage of some poor secondaries...seriously.:up:GMJohnson likes this. -
Very bold statement indeed, but yeah I can see it with all the people coming back healthy. The additions by subtractions during the off-season should help. I don't take strength-of-schedule into account much nowadays so, eh. But it's also gonna help a little bit to have a guy defensive backs can't bring down with tranquilizer darts and a jeep. I'm not completely sold, but Nolan should know how to put our guys in position to make plays on defense at least better than Paul P did.
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Well lets hope that if we didnt trade for him that our FO had a plan to bring in other players via draft or FA. In that instance then yeah, we probably would win a solid amount of games but i like our chances just a bit more with Mr. Marshall.
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It's sorta interesting, BMarsh's OTA presser he mentions:
" the way I look at it, Ronnie and Ricky and the offensive line open things up for us, when you have a running game as powerful as we have, that opens up opportunities for the rest of us"
http://www.miamidolphins.com/aquavision/video/ota-1-brandon-marshall-interview-51910
at 2:22. -
Thats my boy padre speaking the truth...
I also believe we would win without marshall. Probably a good year being 9-7 to 10-6 but with marshall thats almost automatic and possibly 10-11-12 wins.
Most off-seasons we wouldnt make half the moves we have made this off-season. Maybe it is a 3 year process. A 3 year superbowl? No... thats almost ridiculous... but a true competitor..... yes.
I think the Pats will take a step back without welker in there for half the year but it will be the fins/jets going 5-1 or 6-2 to start the season and leading the division. Marshall adds a different element to our offense and hopefully gives us 2 more wins that we would of had. And I think Dansby fills a hole but Wake as an x-factor and hopefully dominant gives us that joey porter aspect of 08. -
A lot would have depended on Health and how well Nolan's defense plays, but an improved Oline at G and Hartline for Ginn at Wr would have led to improvement imho.
The real problem this year, and why I think Sparano has reduced the number of OTA's is due to the first 7 games just being brutal, with 5 playoff teams on tap.
The Return game does have my concern, Ginn was a home run threat and that is just not easily replaced in the NFL, for example Stefon Logan set a new Steelers return yardage record with 1300 yds, Ginn had close to 1400 and 2 TD's something Logan couldn't do in Pittsburgh... -
I agree with your statement in the thread title...we could win even without BM this season, based on the rest of the acquisitions. Thankfully we don't have to.
The other thing to theoretically win without him, is we need to stay as injury free as in 2008, not a repeat of 2009.
On the other hand, had we had BM on our team last season, with nothing else different, IMO his abilities factored in would have been good for two more wins at least, a 9-7 record and the playoffs.padre31 likes this. -
It depends on what "win" means. Could we have an above .500 record without Marshall? Yes, the easier schedule, a better defense and some better injury luck could accomplish that. But IMO we had no realistic championship shot without a #1 WR and all the optimism about Hartline becoming a #1 is pure homerism.
MonstBlitz, SeanP, jim1 and 1 other person like this. -
Nothing we've done this off season even comes close to adding Brandon Marshall....
In fact nothing ANY team in the NFL has done comes close.... THE biggest impact signing of 2010.
You'll see that when Henne is named to the Pro Bowl......this offense is going to be insane. Ronnie and Ricky are licking their chops.GMJohnson likes this. -
Urgghh...your killing me Padre.
I cant agree with this either.
Without a legit #1 WR this offense is one dimensional and dull.
This team wouldn't be more than 8-8 this year at best.
However, with Marshall (and should he stay healthy) this team can go 11-5.
I believe that a true #1 can be the difference maker in at least 3 games. -
Well, most championship runs contain an element of good fortune to them, for example the Jest playing a Colts team that laid down towards the end of the season, if that had not happened the Jest miss the playoffs altogether.
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Denver had Marshall for 15 games last yr, they still missed the playoffs.
For us, the additions of Dansby and Odrick and Dobbins are just as important as the Scoring Defense was atrocious. -
Hartline was a decent deep threat, nothing great. I like him but he's at best a #2 type. We can be good without Marshall, but I don't think that we can be really good without him and the #1 WR element that he brings to the team. No matter how you cut it, that was a serious, serious deficiency last year, and it would be again this year without him. I think that it was Jake Grove who said that as good as our running game was last year, it was always uphill with 8 or 9 in the box against us- that had to change, and it has, or should I say will. Best offseason pickup in the NFL imo. Stud player added to a position of tremendous need.
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Brother Pad, so are you inferring that we would make the playoffs and beyond if we didn't have Marshall -- because, if you put Ginn back in the lineup ... even with an improved defense -- and mind you, it will take a couple games into the season before the defense really starts to play well against the tough part of our schedule ... and we are very much going to need an explosive offense to win those games -- we just wouldn't have a chance if you swapped Marshall and Ginn again.
you can't take Ginn out of the equation, unless you add Marshall ... could we be a good team, sure ... could we be a playoff team - doubt it. -
I'm going to take your words and say we could be "successful" without Marshall. I do not think we'd stand up against most teams in a SB Playoff run though assuming we made it there.
The fact of the matter is that we were a strong team last year until the stretch when age started to settle in. We're quite literally revamping the defense almost completely. The only position we know is going to be the same as last year on Defense is LE (and maybe Crowder's ILB spot). Now granted I think we need that, but with that much of a revamp its really hard to pin any successes or strides last year to this team. They're going to have to prove themselves all over again.
I think we needed Marshall to be a championship team, hands down. He's going to make the offense better, the defense better through practices (especially our young CBs), and of the absolute most importance, he's a huge piece to the Chad Henne puzzle. If Fasano can go back to his 2008 form, Henne will have everything he needs to be a successful QB. The only thing left will be on him.LandShark13 likes this. -
Ginn would have been gone either way, Hartline would move into his role and Greg C would have remained a starter.
As for the defense gelling, that is an uknown, I suspect the Veterans will catch onto it quickly though.
As for explosive offense, eh, perhaps, Hartline showed ability to go deep and make big plays, and Henne showed a lot of development in his first season, if that continued, and cats like Ronnie B and Anthony Fasano bounced back the offense would have been good to pretty good, certainly better than the Wanny Era offenses.
To me, TG was a goner either way, at worst it would have meant Pat Turner played more, or they drafted a Wr, or one of the UDFA/PS guys would have a real shot at starting.
As for a playoff team without BMarsh, I believe we would have been simply because the running game would easily be Top 5 in the NFL and that would win the ToP battle and +/- turnover battle simply by grinding the ball.
To me, there is a perception that because Brandon Marshall was added the entire offensive philosophy is going to change, not so, even when Dan Henning had Moose Muhammed in Carolina they still primarily ran the ball, the difference was they completed longer passes to Moose and Steve Smith.
Marshall reminds me of a more athletic Moose Mohammed. -
The Jets were only able to do that with the top defense in the league. Our defense is untested, and to assume that is a bit tough. Granted our passing game will be better than theirs was with or without BMarsh, but I still think thats a very big leap to make that because we're a top 5 rushing team we'd be playoff bound.
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The other difference is, Sanchez is not nearly the qb Chad Henne is and we could have 2 1,000 yd rushers this year, the Jets did not come close to that in 09.
As for the Defense, it is impossible to predict one way or another, Nolan's track record is one of quick improvement but there are no guarantees, adding Karlos Dansby and Jared Odrick and Tim Dobbins should help, along with releasing Gibril Wilson who picked bad times to have poor games. -
to me the difference will be a matter of function than form ... yes, we will still be a run 1st team - but we will actually be successful in chunks with Marshall in the fold. Something we couldn't do with Ginn albeit, a lot of folks on this site continued to make the assessment that Ginn was 'spreading the field'. Additionally, with an effective passing game - our running game should improve and likely maintain a 4+ YPC average. Again, something we did not have last year ....
if we brought a rookie in, it wouldn't be much different ... and as much as i like Hartline, i don't think he would be nearly as effective as a #1 with CAM across from him.
Marshall will open the slot and TE ... that i very much believe -- and we will see the increased production across the WR/TEs ...
what 'veterans' are going to jump and fill the gaps on defense ... we still have Wake in spot duty and Anderson -- but need someone else ... likely Misi at some point to fill the void. same for FS ... with Clemons/Culver/Jones. ILB and CB i am not worried about ... we will unquestionably be improved there. i believe it will take the 1st month to get the defense going ... especially against our tougher competition in the 1st half of the schedule. -
You know me Pads the defense was the biggest reason why they didnt win, agrred, however the offense didnt have enough firepower....if Miami went into this year, like last...obviously they dont trade Ginn, if no Brandon...they would still need that one or two piece addition to make it go....fast forward to 2010...
okay add Marshall, subtract Ginn we all know the pro's and cons....BM absolutely makes this offense much more difficult to gameplan, and ultimately play....what stalled them last year on offense, drop passes, Ronnie's injury, lack of the quick strike big play and injuries in general, not to mention it was Chad's first full season...if they can stay healthy all around, with a QB that has gotten past the first year gitters, their line arguably has been upgraded with Richie Sporano and the depth in general, the quick strike 15 yards+ play can happen in a moments notice, not just by Brandon, but most due to his presence...those WR's had to fight for every yard last year, all too often they would catch the ball and get maybe a couple of yards after......last year too many stalled drives when it mattered most....I dont see that this year, provided Brandon is Brandon...Ronnie HAS to stay healthy this year, I cant stress that enough, with both RB/RW they have an amazing backfield, if it is just RW, he cant handle the entire load himself, and bogs down....
I think his injury thing is fodder, I believe you will see him on the field in July...maybe before...padre31 likes this. -
Suspect points one and all. He'll be linked to Henne, which is a big plus. He'll improve the running game by taking 8/9 out of the box. And if his stats suffer in going to a run first team- so what? He'll get his, and he'll provide great synergy to the offense, loosening things up for the running game. Dude will be an elixir for the offense.
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unresolved free safety vacancy?
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Man, a digression from my OP "But" BMarsh in the Redzone in our offense should/could clean up a ton of TD's, that has me jacked up a bit.:up:jim1 likes this.
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our chances are great of faring much better w/Marshall on the team
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