Is the debate over Henne finished?

"rdhstlr23 wrote:

But, it wasn't him being conservative that cost him today. That may be the case for 2009 & 2010, but not this year. I think he needs to go, because the slate just needs to be wiped clean. In my opinion, only Jake Long has a guaranteed spot on this team.

More players than long deserve guaranteed spots on this team.

"NaboCane wrote:

If that's true (and I have zero reason to doubt that it is) then coach meathead has lost the players now, instead of later like I thought, and we may see him fired tomorrow.

Meathead is a perfect adjective for "coach Sparano".

"Bumrush wrote:

There is no question that his performance drops off during those periods.. To me, that is a coachable problem that can be fixed with experience. Henne is clearly a better, more assertive QB now... That doesn't mean he has arrived or tapped in to his full potential.. Because once he does, he can be the franchise QB we have been waiting for.

Hes never going to get that chance. He will not get better coaching here. We'll have a new staff; and no new staff is going to hitch their wagon to Chad Henne. That would be insanity. He's got 13 more games as our QB then hes done in Miami, for better or worse.

"Section126 wrote:

Trust me..his conservative nature cost them this game today as well.

There were players lobbying up and down the sideline today for opportunities to make BIG plays all day. Sparano didn't care. Scared to death. Worst part is that Henne is Tony's puppet.

I disagree. And during the middle of the game, how do you lobby a head coach, who doesn't call the plays, to put you in and make a play? If a player on offense wants to make a play shouldn't they go to Daboll? Conversely, the same is true for defense and Nolan. He went for it on 4th down. They played for a TD at 13-10, but we were unable to cash it in.

I mean you're damned if you do, damned if you don't if you're Tony Sparano. I don't think conservatism is his issue this year. It comes flat down to winning & losing and he's losing.

"Anonymous wrote:

More players than long deserve guaranteed spots on this team.

I disagree. I don't see many other players who aren't expendable. Does that mean I want to get rid of everyone and players who have served their roles well? Of course not. However, we love a guy like Davone Bess, but the truth is, you can find that player on the street and fit him into a scheme.

Paul Soliai as wonderful as he's been, isn't in the same class as Wilfork or Ngata. He doesn't have an all around game like those guys do, so he wont get paid like them.

"rdhstlr23 wrote:

I disagree. I don't see many other players who aren't expendable. Does that mean I want to get rid of everyone and players who have served their roles well? Of course not. However, we love a guy like Davone Bess, but the truth is, you can find that player on the street and fit him into a scheme.

Paul Soliai as wonderful as he's been, isn't in the same class as Wilfork or Ngata. He doesn't have an all around game like those guys do, so he wont get paid like them.

Bess isn't just an ordinary player you can find on the street. He's a talent.

I think there are way more than Long, based on talent and draft position.

here is a question i have and i am not sure if this is on henne or the coaches:

henne seems to be making a lot more big plays, but none of them are in the end zone...a few of the deep (30+ yard) sideline plays to hartline and marshall for example. my question is if henne is pulling the trigger too early or is daboll calling these plays too far from the end zone? or is it just dumb luck...

in other words, think about the difference in the game today if the deep hartline play was called at the browns 35 yard line rather than on our side of the field. or is that chad is not accurate enough and that play should have been a TD?

The whole debate about how good Henne is or isn't is completely pointless. He will not be our QB next year. Think about it...if you got a new job, would you want to bet that job on Henne playing well? Niether will the next HC of the Fins.

"steveincolorado wrote:

Not for the haters. Henne is playing very well. IMO, only one bad throw and that was 3 & goal late in the 1st half. He had Bess, but maybe it was too late he just threw it away?? The one to Marshall a couple series earlier, did Henne miss him or did BM run the wrong route? We dont know?
When Henne has had the time, he's been nothing but money!! 15/19 for 191 and TD!! That's very good! Don't care what anybody else says.

Side note, Randy Cross is a idiot, he should just STFU! He's been wrong so many times today!
Joe Hayden is awesome, Sean Smith is terrible.

Hmm...missed that pic with the game on the line.........................??

"rdhstlr23 wrote:

I disagree. And during the middle of the game, how do you lobby a head coach, who doesn't call the plays, to put you in and make a play? If a player on offense wants to make a play shouldn't they go to Daboll? Conversely, the same is true for defense and Nolan. He went for it on 4th down. They played for a TD at 13-10, but we were unable to cash it in.

I mean you're damned if you do, damned if you don't if you're Tony Sparano. I don't think conservatism is his issue this year. It comes flat down to winning & losing and he's losing.

You watched preseason; was that the same Offense as you saw out there today?

No. We're back to the same dink-and-dunk bull**** O that we had last season and the season before...the 15-play drives with a QB who makes mistakes, an O-Line that cannot block and a running game that is ineffectual when you need it most.

Does that look like the dangerous spread formations we ran in preseasons or the turtle-shell Offense we've seen way too much of already?

I think from the players' standpoint, Channing Crowder's criticism of Chad Henne, as amorphous as it was...is probably the thing that rings true with all the players on the team. Everyone saw out there today how despite everything, despite mistakes, suckitude, the Browns mustering up some great plays at the end...we still had a chance. And not some far off, distant chance that's like "Oh well TOM BRADY would have welcomed the opportunity to drive it 80 yards for a touchdown with 1:06 remaining and no timeouts". No, not like that at all. ONE FIRST DOWN. That's it. One first down and four plays to do it. And they had a timeout. They had...a timeout. Every part of the field was open to them.

Channing Crowder's criticism was just that Henne can't win you these games in that type of situation. In fact, Crowder's criticism was that Henne can't win you the game in situations much harder than that, this was an easy one. And he still...couldn't...do it.

You know, the players may be mad at Sparano, they may have sold out on him...but I imagine that every single one of those players is also thinking that they don't have a quarterback that is going to make plays in critical situations, which was the crux of Crowder's assessment as to why Henne is not the guy. And if you as a player don't think you have a quarterback that is going to make critical plays for you even in extremely doable clutch situations...I don't know how any of those players can have confidence in their team.

Henne is not THE weakness of the team by any means. But he is clearly A weakness. And by virtue of the position he plays, he's going to be the weakness the players are most sensitive about when it comes to their confidence in themselves as a team.

"texanphinatic wrote:

I see this mentioned by a lot of people. The problem is Henne isn't the solution either, and that is what you need your QB to be. Super Bowl winning QB's cover defects and elevate their team. Aaron Rodgers overcame poor OL play, the loss of his prime running back and his starting TE to win the Super Bowl. Brady took an offense without Moss into the playoffs. Roethlisburger suffered through a worse OL than we had to get his team to the Super Bowl. Will Chad Henne do that? I don't see it.

0-3 with mediocre point totals in a league that has offenses exploding like supernovas is not great, its barely decent. You cannot put up 16 points in a loss to a mediocre Browns team and come away saying "Great Game Henne!"

We have on OL that is awful.
Yes, I said awful.
You don't "explode" offensively with drastic weaknesses up front.

Straight line run blocking we can get by but pass protection is a complete disaster.
We have a RT that has been a turnstyle his entire career.
Instead of going after a Guard in FA we ingeniously move an old slow footed RT to Guard in favor of an old turnstyle RT.
Our other Guard is a mauler WHEN he gets latched onto people but if he's out of position at all his lack of athleticism is horribly exposed.
Our Center is showing great promise but he's a rookie and he's been overpowered many times.
Our all pro LT is clearly not fully healthy and struggling.

So no, I'm not willing to say "Great game Henne" but I am willing to objectively look at what is truly hampering this offense.

That's just a start by the way.
We haven't even gotten into a what continues to seem to be a flawed coaching staff that has problems preparing this team.

"2socks wrote:

Hmm...missed that pic with the game on the line.........................??

You might want to see when I wrote that before you respond.

Here's the thing people don't wanna admit: If this team absolutely sucks, we won't get 6 wins. We'll still win five or so by accident.

That means no Luck.

That means draft elsewhere. DE? WR? Trade back and get Safety and Line help?

That Means Henne returns next year, unless some elite FA signs here, which... doesn't happen here too often. I guess Dansby?

Marshall and Bush were trades.

Henne will be back if he continues to play at this level. Accept it.

You don't blow up a team and create 53 areas of need. You assess the talent level you have, which will begin in a few weeks after regime change.

They determine who they want around.

D. Thomas
Marshall
Bess
Gates (2nd year, unique skill amongst our roster)
Wake
Vontae
Sean Smith
Burnett
Dansby
Solai
Long, of course
Pouncey
Odrick

Those guys will all be back as a nucleus of this team, love it or hate it. After that, Guys with questions are considered. I think Henne leads that group, but is brought back.

To blame Chad Henne when he's completing like 70% of his passes with what, 2 INTs? Is asinine.

This defense needs more need of dire rebuild than the offense, which is odd as it's the polar opposite of what we expected going in.

"rdhstlr23 wrote:

I disagree. And during the middle of the game, how do you lobby a head coach, who doesn't call the plays, to put you in and make a play? If a player on offense wants to make a play shouldn't they go to Daboll? Conversely, the same is true for defense and Nolan. He went for it on 4th down. They played for a TD at 13-10, but we were unable to cash it in.

I mean you're damned if you do, damned if you don't if you're Tony Sparano. I don't think conservatism is his issue this year. It comes flat down to winning & losing and he's losing.

Tony Sparano takes over play calling at times during games.

"ToddsPhins wrote:

I completely agree with you 100%. I hated that call, especially to a rookie, and even more so when that rookie is matched against an equally talented rookie who's as fast or faster than Gates. But that's on Daboll's play call, not Henne for trying to execute it.

You know how Henne began the 2nd half?

1st drive:
sack
8 yard pass
sack
scramble
38 yard pass
inc to Fasano
Sack.
**That's 3 SACKS and one heavy pressure from interior Dline collapsing the pocket. Could it be that Carey's injury threw our Oline out of whack? Despite it, we get a FG b/c of Henne's pass to Hartline where only Hart could catch it.

2nd drive passing:
9 yard completion
Sack by interior Dline AGAIN. UNACCEPTABLE.
John Jerry HOLDING inside Cleveland territory creating 1st & 20. (I'm guessing this is against the same interior Dline that's killed Henne thus far in the 2nd half. )
8 yard completion.
Punt.

3rd drive passing:
scramble
INC to Bess.
FG.

4th drive was the end of game nonsense that should've never happened to begin with if the TEAM played at least moderately well as a TEAM.

During the 2nd qtr prior to that last unnecessary drive, Henne was 4/6, 63 yards, 4 sacks, 1 holding call, 2 scrambles.
The "22.5 QBR" you're referring to comes from those last 4 passes against solid coverage that should've never happened to begin with. If Carpenter doesn't miss a chip shot, it's already game over for Cleveland. If we don't fumble the ball in the redzone, it's game over, we win. If Marshall doesn't miss his 2nd TD in 2 weeks, we win. If the ref doesn't blow an obvious offensive PI call during Cleveland's game wining drive, we win. If our Oline could pass protect in the 2nd half, we win.

There was ZERO reason for us to have our backs pinned against the wall late in the game to begin with, and you know one reason why we shouldn't have been in that situation?----- Henne played a solid game. That's one reason.

that 82 Rating (that's deflated thanks to multiple needless INTs) is better than Bradford, Freeman, Cassel, Cutler, Orton, McCoy.... and about equal to Ryan & Kolb. The only young QB who's outshining these guys is Stafford..... with Flacco & Sanchez are a distant 2nd.

I agree with a lot here, and good analysis showing how pitiful the OL is, but 51 yards is not missing "a chip shot".

"Anonymous wrote:

We're not asking him to be elite. We're asking him to join the rest of the NFL's top Quaterbacks and throw some touchdowns.

He's 2 dropped TDs away from ranking in the top 7.... and he has as many TDs as Rivers.... one more than Roethlisberger..... and twice as many as Bradford and Freeman. Does that mean the Rams should be looking to replace #1 overall pick, Sam?

Matt Stafford's team isn't that much better than ours. He has no offensive line. Henne at least has Jake Long protecting his blind side. Stafford has Johnson, Henne has Marshall. Henne has a better running game. Yet, Stafford is out playing Henne.

Does Jake protect Henne from the other defensive guys sacking Henne 4 times in the 2nd half? Currently our pass blocking is like a malfunctioned toll booth that has the gate stuck open.

With all due respect, are you trying to say that guys like Stafford grow on trees? What about all the other 2nd, 3rd, and 4th year starting QBs who aren't playing like Stafford? Instead of expecting Brady-like play to compensate for a sloppy team, how about we expect a talented team to play solid fundamental football like a talented playoff caliber team should?

IMO there's absolutely no reason for this type of overall talent level to be relying on a QB to win games in the 4th qtr on a weekly basis.

"NaboCane wrote:

You watched preseason; was that the same Offense as you saw out there today?

No. We're back to the same dink-and-dunk bull**** O that we had last season and the season before...the 15-play drives with a QB who makes mistakes, an O-Line that cannot block and a running game that is ineffectual when you need it most.

Does that look like the dangerous spread formations we ran in preseasons or the turtle-shell Offense we've seen way too much of already?

Let's give some credit to the Browns. They did a phenomenal job of taking that away, except for Hartline's two big plays. We were in shotgun, we ran some no huddle, we did everything that we've seen before.

"Section126 wrote:

Tony Sparano takes over play calling at times during games.

I saw him with the sheet. I believe he does it at times too, but I don't think he does it as nearly as much as we think.

"Bumrush wrote:

Much of the same mentality was used when Jay Fielder was leading this team to an 11-5 record and started out 5-2 the next year.. He wasn't elite or pretty, so why not give Ray Lucas a chance.. People were overjoyed when Fielder went down.. How has our QB situation been since then ?
?

I don't want to derail this thread but I the references to Jay Fiedler have given me a bit of gas so I have to release.

Those early 2000 teams never won BECAUSE of Jay Fiedler.
No better example of just because a team is winning it dosen't mean you have a good QB could be offered.
Wanny's love affair with elf ears is just one of the MANY ways he destroyed our franchise.

Just needed to be stated.

"rdhstlr23 wrote:

Let's give some credit to the Browns. They did a phenomenal job of taking that away, except for Hartline's two big plays. We were in shotgun, we ran some no huddle, we did everything that we've seen before.

You're rationalizing; they can't take away what we never lined up in.

We never saw the spread today, we have insisted on using Bush as an inside runner instead of creating space for him, and we're lining up in tight formations, with Garner playing Tackle-eligible about 1/3 of the Offensive plays. That's as far from the one-back/no-back spreads we saw the team was capable of when the games didn't count, and now that they do Sparano has put the governor on the engine and we're sputtering along at 55MPH on the Autobahn.

"maynard wrote:

here is a question i have and i am not sure if this is on henne or the coaches:

henne seems to be making a lot more big plays, but none of them are in the end zone...a few of the deep (30+ yard) sideline plays to hartline and marshall for example. my question is if henne is pulling the trigger too early or is daboll calling these plays too far from the end zone? or is it just dumb luck...

in other words, think about the difference in the game today if the deep hartline play was called at the browns 35 yard line rather than on our side of the field. or is that chad is not accurate enough and that play should have been a TD?

We have a guy (Brandon Marshal) that dominated YAC before he got here.

We have a guy (Davone Bess) that gets in and out of routes faster than Wes Welker but his YAC is virtually nonexistent.

We have a guy (Reggie Bush) that was the most productive RB in the NFL passing game before he got here.

We have a TE (Anthony Fasano) who showed he was worth the draft pick given up for him alone much less the other player the year he got here.

We have a guy who was just described as a magician on the sideline yet no pass he catches in the middle of the field seems to allow him to stay on his feet.

All except for one has played through two different coordinators but their issues seem to remain the same.

My sister in law carries a concealed weapons permit. She has had professional training in marksmanship. She owns a 9mm pistol and brought it to my range. We set up the target on a clear summers day and she proceded to shoot out a spotlight that sits 15 yards in front of the target on the ground.

"Vinny Fins wrote:

Here's the thing people don't wanna admit: If this team absolutely sucks, we won't get 6 wins. We'll still win five or so by accident.

That means no Luck.

That means draft elsewhere. DE? WR? Trade back and get Safety and Line help?

That Means Henne returns next year, unless some elite FA signs here, which... doesn't happen here too often. I guess Dansby?

Marshall and Bush were trades.

Henne will be back if he continues to play at this level. Accept it.

You don't blow up a team and create 53 areas of need. You assess the talent level you have, which will begin in a few weeks after regime change.

They determine who they want around.

D. Thomas
Marshall
Bess
Gates (2nd year, unique skill amongst our roster)
Wake
Vontae
Sean Smith
Burnett
Dansby
Solai
Long, of course
Pouncey
Odrick

Those guys will all be back as a nucleus of this team, love it or hate it. After that, Guys with questions are considered. I think Henne leads that group, but is brought back.

To blame Chad Henne when he's completing like 70% of his passes with what, 2 INTs? Is asinine.

This defense needs more need of dire rebuild than the offense, which is odd as it's the polar opposite of what we expected going in.

I agree with a lot of this.

Marshall may not stay though. I don't know if he simply becomes a malcontent pretty much forcing a trade with all the upheaval.

Sean Smith should be taken off that list for me personally and I'm adding CB to what is a long list of needs.
The kid absolutely refuses to turn around and play the ball. Even covering TE's he can't seem to hold his own enough to turn around and play the ball.
That's not good for someone who considers himself as part of one of the best tandems of starting CB's in the NFL.

"ToddsPhins wrote:

Does Jake protect Henne from the other defensive guys sacking Henne 4 times in the 2nd half? Currently our pass blocking is like a malfunctioned toll booth that has the gate stuck open.

With all due respect, are you trying to say that guys like Stafford grow on trees? What about all the other 2nd, 3rd, and 4th year starting QBs who aren't playing like Stafford? Instead of expecting Brady-like play to compensate for a sloppy team, how about we expect a talented team to play solid fundamental football like a talented playoff caliber team should?

IMO there's absolutely no reason for this type of overall talent level to be relying on a QB to win games in the 4th qtr on a weekly basis.

We're going to have a Matt Stafford type of QB to draft when the next draft begins. Your excuses for Henne are pointless. He's going to be replaced in the next draft.

2001 @ Denver, JF drove the Dolphins down the field in 50 some secs to have Mare kick a 52 yd FG with 11 secs left to beat the Broncos on ESPN's Sun nite football.

With a broken finger