Hero13 and I were in a conversation in a post that was suppose to be about our new back up center. So I figured I would continue the debate in an appropriate thread. Hero would take a great kicker over a great pass rusher I would take a Great Pass Rusher simply because they are harder to find. Many great kickers you can pick up on waivers or undrafted
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Is this a joke? Pass rusher..
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Taylor in a rout
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I probably would take Matt Roth over Adam Vinatieri in his prime. I don't even know how someone can argue to take a Kicker over a Defensive End. Just look at the draft. DE fly off the board and only one kicker was taken in the first round in the history of the NFL draft... and that by Al Davis. That says it all.
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kickers are a dime a dozen...
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:sidelol:
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Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member
Sorry, have to agree with everyone else on this...give me a great pass rusher that the offense has to account for on 3 of 4 downs rather than a kicker that only gets a handful of plays that make a difference in the game....
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Poor Hero13.. I have a feeling that he wont be having many more "friendly debates" with you after you brought this out in the public.. :p
GISH and finsgirlie like this. -
:jt0323:
Pass Rusher 1,000,000 :1 -
No, what I said was between a good kicker making a game winning kick or a pass rusher having a good game I would take the game winning kick any time. The debate was started over the fact that I said directly a kicker who is clutch in kicking game winning field goals has more of a direct impact on wins and losses than a good pass rusher.
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pass rusher please and thank you.
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I would take the pass rusher if you are talking a game changing type player. if we're talking someone like andre bruce, or some less than average player, the kicker would be a wise choice.
the key is GAME WINNING KICK, if the kick misses wide right, that pass rusher did NO good! -
Olindo Mare is a great kicker?
If the debate was Jason Taylor or Adam Vinatieri it might've been more solid. You've got to take the pass rusher either way. Taylor, as much as I hate him, is a future Hall of Famer. Mare? Well, did he even make the team he was on this Preseason? I know he was horrible with New Orleans last year. -
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Ok, let me take one more run at this.
I said direct impact on wins & losses. A pass rusher rarely has a direct impact. A sack itself never wins a game - it may preserve a win. Or it may get the ball back so the KICKER can win the game.A QB pressure that leads to an incompletion is an indirect method because it still takes CB's & safeties to do their job properly.
Let's go back to what started it - he mentioned that a kicker shouldn't be in the same thread as a BACK UP center. My response was that the average kicker has more value to a team than the average lineman of any type and I fully 100% bet my left nut beleive that. I took it one step further - how many games can you say Jason Taylor won for Miami? Directly, I'm talking a fumble / InT return for a TD when the score it still in question? How many times did Mare win games for the Dolphins?
They both needed supporting casts but when it comes down to one clutch play the kicker is the one that wins or loses a lot of games not a defensive end.calphin likes this. -
Mare was more to make a point that the other Dolphin fans would recognize in the context of the wins & losses for Miami during his tenure on the team. -
WAS is the key word! kinda like Nugent has been. good kicker on less than good teams:up: -
MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member
Russell Erxleben - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaalen1 likes this. -
MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member
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"If anything kickers have a lot more to do with winning or losing than any particular lineman ever will.
Really if you line up Olindo Mare against Jason Taylor - tell me who has directly won more games for the Dolphins by making 1 play?"
This is your exact quote Hero! I brought it over from the other thread and Defensive Linemen have far mpre impact. Remember Trace Armstrong sacking flutie. Remember Trace Armstrong sacking Kitna in Seattle. I believe it was Marino's last win -
thats preserving a win! not game winning! -
Read the first part of that quote Kickers win or lose more games then linemen do!
That is totally false. Ask any GM in the National Football League and they will take the game changing pass rusher all day long. This isn't even a debate its a fact. Nobody ever game planned for a kicker but I assure you they game planned for Jason Taylor -
Armstrong did not in fact make a game winning play he preserved a victory. What if he had not in fact sacked Kitna it doesn't mean they don't win the game does it? You cannot say that Armstrongs play definitively won the game - why not Buckley's INT? That is a bigger play than the sack.
If a kicker misses a kick in the final seconds trailing by 1 - there is a guaranteed loss.
A kicker 100% controls a win or loss in that instance if he has the opportunity to kick the ball. -
Then how come the percentage of teams that win games is much higher when they have more sacks then the other team. I tried to find the exact percentage rate but I coundn't find it on google. But if you listen to sirius satelite radio Gil Brant talks about it from time to time. Also if you really believe that a great pass rushing DE has less to do with winning a game then a kicker then You need to talk to any NFL coach or GM. Quite frankly this shouldn't even be a debate it's more like arguing with a three year old.
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:pity:
To be honest, I think this thread is wrong on all accounts. Just for the fact one member called another out trying to get people to take sides in a debate they were having.
I will not post in this thread anymore. -
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Was it just to try to mock an opinion different than yours?
Was it to pile on to an opinion that you feel is equal to the logic of a "three year old"? To get more people to join in?
To answer your other question though it probably means - going out on a big limb here - that they may have a good secondary, a good linebacker corps and a good defensive line to preserve victories. It also means that the opposing team is probably in a mode where they have to throw the ball more often because they are either trailing in the game or the run defense is doing such a good job that they are trying to open the field up. -
The reason why I brought it to a new post is the post it was originally being discussed in was supposed to be about our new back up center and people were totally ignoring it and started talking about kickers. Thats when I said you shouldn't be talking about former kickers. And thats when you told me kickers were more important then DE. So I simply restarted the discussion in the appropriate thread so people who wanted to talk about the new center could do so with out talking about J feely -
1 - Points win games
2 - Kickers score points
3 - defenders prevent points (sometimes score, but rare)
4 - sacks don't score points, they prevent them (again sack, fumble, ret - rare)
If a kicker has the opportunity to kick a game deciding field goal by my definition trailing by 1-2 points with one play left and he misses the team loses, he makes it the team wins.
If in your previous example Kitna being sacked by Armstrong doens't happen Kitna may throw an incomplete pass, throw an interception or complete a meaningless pass. What Armstrong did do was negate any chance of Kitna throwing a game winning score - so if you want he stopped kitna from winning the game but Armstrong did not win the game by making the play that he did. Now if the Seahawks had been winning and Armstrong sacked Kitna forcing a fumble that was returned for a score that would constitute a game winning play.
This is all assuming the center to Qb exchange - center to holder exchange goes as it should.
Once the ball is in the Qb's hands the play he makes, aside of the QB making a rushing TD still rely on another player to contribute to the success or failure of the play.
once that football is in teh holders hands the only person that determines the outcome of the kick is kicker (assuming the kick is not blocked).
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