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Jeff Ireland Discussion, try to leave drama at the door.......

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by vt_dolfan, Nov 12, 2013.

  1. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    We all know theres usually two camps in our forums. No need to spell them out, we all know who they are. We have just gone through the most embarrassing week and a half this franchise has ever seen. Frustrations are bound to boil over. But nows not the time to take it out on each other. Nows not the time to act like your happy we are in this mess so you can be the one to say..."I told you so". One thing we can control is what kind of climate we have in this "Locker Room". Lets try and take an objective look at the team over all, and discuss if from that point. Objective can be data driven, and can be opinion driven, but it means keeping an open mind about the discussion in whole. There is no right or wrong answer.

    The hot topic at hand is of course, Jeff Ireland, so lets tackle that one first.

    I don't think Jeff Ireland has done an abysmal job as our GM. I think its fair to look at his performance in whole. He has landed us some very good talent. Has it all been used effectively? No. But that isn't all on Jeff Ireland's plate.

    Under Jeff Ireland, we did become the first team to go from last place one season to winning the division the next. Jake Long was a very good pick at LT. You can argue we should have taken a QB. Maybe we should have, but I don't see there is enough evidence to factually say that is the case. However, the rest of his 2008 draft at this point should be considered a failure. Not one player drafted outside of Jake Long had a meaningful impact on this franchise, ever. Chad Henne was clearly the wrong QB taken in this draft for this team.

    2009 - We lost the division crown, and missed the playoffs. The draft again, out side of one player, at this point I believe we can consider a failure. Brian Hartline taken in the 4th round was a very good pick. He is a very good part of a solid WR core. He also signed Cameron Wake. Nuff said on that one. Absolute monster.

    2010 - We again finish the season 7-9. We traded a 2010 and 2011 second round pick for Brandon Marshall. From a talent view point, Marshall is a very good WR. He never really became a very good WR for us though. Whether the fit was wrong, the coaches used him wrong, he just never played up to what that trade value should have gotten us. The draft was supposed to be about filling the trenches. I do like Jared Odrick. I think he has become a very good defensive player on our team, and I think his attitude and sense of humor bring some degree of needed levity to the locker room. Koa Misi, how good he has played, I think varies from person to person. I don't know that he will ever be a Pro Bowl Linebacker for the Phins. Other players drafted include John Jerry, Reshad Jones, Nolan Caroll. Purely from a look on what kind of impact Irelands draft has had on the team, this draft wasn't a complete bust. The jury is still out on Reshad Jones at Safety, as he has regressed from being a Pro Bowl alternate last season.

    2011 - Started the season 0-7 before finishing 6-10. Tony Sparano's last season. Traded 2nd round pick from the 2010 trade for Marshall. Traded a 3rd round pick, 5th and 7th round pick to move back into the 2nd round of the 2011 draft. That pick ended up being Daniel Thomas, who to this point, has not proven worthy of any of that. We drafted Mike Pouncey with our first round pick, who has become a legit star center in the league. Charles Clay in the 6th round also looks to be a very good pick.

    2012 - First season with Joe Philbin as coach. This was Ireland's best draft by far. And in some ways, the worst. Ryan Tannehill by some opinion, has shown the potential to be the franchise QB we have all been waiting for. Personally, I am in that boat. I like what I have seen with Ryan. Now, there are some that don't agree, and have made some good points. Then in the second round, he took Jonathan Martin, which at this point, not only has been a colossal bust, but he is now forever part of the worst singular week in Miami Dolphins history. Even if you look at Martin from a performance standpoint, the pick was bad. He was on his way to being a bust. Olivier Vernon has been a very good 3rd round pick for the Phins. Michael Egnew we don't really know what we have, but he has enough talent to keep the book open. Lamar Miller, I believe can be a star in the league. You wouldn't know it though behind this line. Rishard Mathews, cant really say for certain, but so far could be a GEM 7th round pick out of Nevada.

    2013 - Ongoing. I like the Dion Jordan pick, and I liked the move to go up and get him. Im not sure why he is used so sparingly, but he has shown flashes and ability to be a stud. As to the rest of the draft, at this point, who the hell knows.


    Some of Ireland's issues haven't been from drafting our signing players. He famously or infamously asked Dez Bryan if his mother was a prostitute during an official draft interview.

    Quite a few fans believe Jeff Ireland's handling of Jason Taylor was really bad.

    He never addressed the QB issue after the failed Henne pick until taking Ryan Tannehill.

    He was part of Stever Ross's failed bid to secretly interview and hire John Harbaugh.

    Richie Incognito vs. Jonathan Martin - Still going on. Two black eyes on this franchise.

    Our Offensive Line this season isn't just bad. Its historically bad. I don't think I need to rehash all that has happened.


    Really, if you look at his performance objectively, its not very good. Our cupboard isn't bare. We have some legit NFL talent at key positions, most importantly at QB.

    But in my opinion, you have to look at, not so much has Jeff Ireland done a good job as GM for the Dolphins, but can he be the GM to take us to the next level. I think that answer is a resoundingly NO. And it is because of that, the fact that I do not believe he is capable of being the kind of GM to take us to the next level, that I believe we need to part ways with Jeff Ireland.
     
  2. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Was going to post this in Fin D's thread until the vultures dove in.

    Like Disgustipate alluded to, the problem is not all with talent acquisition. Ireland has put together decent acquisition, but are overshadowed by his huge whiffs this past year. Everyone knew the receiver corps was going to be bad last year and he didn't do anything about it. Everyonenknew the offensive line had a good chance of being bad this year and he didn't do anything about it. Ireland is playing that game where you press the lit up button and three more buttons light up, never able to make the grid uniform, but with our roster.

    We've had probowl quality players, whether they got voted there or not, but the problem is we keep posting below .500 seasons, and that should be the ultimate reason he goes.
     
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  3. Sethdaddy8

    Sethdaddy8 Well-Known Member

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    What is there to discuss?
     
  4. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Honestly I think all the necessary Jeff Ireland discussions have already taken place. It's just becoming more obvious that a lot of the things people have been bringing up the whole time about him are apparently correct.

    This concept that Jeff Ireland's major weakness is building a cohesive roster and making sure there aren't any glaring holes is hardly a new argument.

    There doesn't need to be any crow eaten or admissions of being wrong or anything like that. It's not about that. But I honestly think that we're a bit beyond the, "let's have an honest discussion about Jeff Ireland and come to the conclusion as to why he needs to go," thing. That's been discussed ad nauseum for years. The only difference is the polls have swayed.
     
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  5. pocoloco

    pocoloco I'm your huckleberry Club Member

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    To even have this conversation, one has to decide whether or not Jeff Ireland was the GM starting in 2009 or not.

    Since it was on his business cards, I assume he was.
     
  6. Sumlit

    Sumlit Well-Known Member

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    I still think he is average at best, most likely below average.

    His draft record is not as bad as people like to claim, he's had some good drafts and some bad ones. However his roster management from year to year has been very very poor. The continued glaring weakness in entire units of this football team are just impossible to overcome year after year.

    This is not good enough.
     
  7. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Bottom line is, we are 1 game out of the 6th seed in the WC race.

    Basically one good weekend for us.

    That said, the offensive line has been bleeding us for years, Ireland finally puts skill position guys on the field and his Achilles heel rears it's head, to me that is enough to see him replaced.

    We've heard this song over and over, time to change choir conductors.
     
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  8. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    pretty good objective analysis but its missing some discussion on irelands weaknesses with player retention. some of his best acquisitions - long, smith, v.d., b.m, etc are no longer on the team. marshall was infamously jettisoned for 2 paltry 3rd rd picks which were wasted. he has since been replaced with a very overpriced and underproducing mike wallace while marshall is back to his stud production in chicago. i believe his player retention is tied directly to his personality which is basically the personality of a dead moth.
     
  9. Sethdaddy8

    Sethdaddy8 Well-Known Member

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    I honestly don't think I am interested in backdooring into the playoffs, so we can go and get publicly slaughtered.

    This team is so impotent in so many aspects of coaching, units, players...
     
    finyank13 likes this.
  10. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Two most important things in the NFL are QB and head coach. QB is average IMO, and HC is below average IMO. The team hasn't done a good enough job with those two positions.

    It seems like Ireland struggles when he strays away from what appears to be his preferences. Signing a guy like Gibson is the type of move Ireland seems to thrive off of. Signing a guy like Mike Wallace does not. Signing a coach like Mike McCoy seems like the type of move Ireland would make, Joe Philbin does not. Jeff Ireland's performance has degraded the farther away he's strayed from what seems to be his preferences.
     
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  11. Marino420TD

    Marino420TD New Member

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    I don't think the issue is so much talent acquisition as it is roster building. Certainly some big whiffs, but he has brought in some decent individual talent. However, the roster as a whole always has huge gaps. OT position, for example, this year. As much as people want to say don't overpay Jake Long, you can't go "value" with no other NFL caliber OT on the roster. Same at WR and maybe CB in the past.
     
  12. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, for me it is one of the reasons why I'm not quite ready to flush the roster and staff and FO quite yet, that is premature.

    If we see another December where Football does not matter in Miami, then it is time to level the organization and start fresh, including Philbin.

    However we are not there.
     
  13. Onehondo

    Onehondo Senior Member Club Member

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    The main question, or should be the main question is, has Jeff Ireland Improved the Dolphins. I like to think he has with some of his acquisitions, but honestly I can't say he has. For every good player he has brought in through the draft, trade or free agency, he has made just as many bad moves and more. At this point I don't think he will ever be able to put together a good offensive line. He made a lot of moves this year, really shaking up the roster. Although a couple of them were decent pickups the shake up didn't improve the team and his moves apparently made it worse. His shakeup also got rid of all of the Dolphins leadership in the locker room.
    We can say what we want about Jake Long, whether they didn't offer him enough money, or he just wanted a new home. But the truth may be that he may have been aware of some things we didn't know about and he just didn't want to play for the current Dolphin staff. I certainly hope the mess we call an offensive line will settle the debate that has gone on in here about the importance of the offensive line and that it is not as easy as some think to find good offensive linemen.
     
  14. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    To cut to the chase , he isn't the guy .

    He isn't and imo wasn't ever going to be the GM that got Miami to where we all wanted and have patiently been waiting for. Sure he has made some good or positive moves , it would be virtually impossible to not do that imo .

    Bottom line for me is when you know or come to the conclusion that in this case Ireland isn't the answer then you do your very best to get the GM that is. Finally virtually everyone seems to agree the change is needed and coming.

    Yet again we are not where we should be ,in many areas, now almost all of us see the pattern.
     
  15. Rouk

    Rouk Well-Known Member

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    what talent acquisition I would bet the majority of dolphin fans couldn't name half of the people we drafted this year with out looking it up because they don't play
     
  16. RevRick

    RevRick Long Haired Leaping Gnome Club Member

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    I think it was early in Ireland's tenure we used to talk about turning over rocks to find acorns. And, for several years I thought that was a pretty good analogy. But, I also remember what my Grandpa said, and I think it has proven to be true for the Dolphins. Sometimes even the blind hog finds an acorn.
     
  17. Fame

    Fame Well-Known Member

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    Ultimately the problem with Jeff Ireland is that the pendulum always swung way too far in one direction in terms of his talent acquisition. His bad acquisitions aren't just bad, they're spectacularly bad.. And even though his rare good acquisitions were very, very good (Wake, Grimes, Pouncey), for every one of them there were 3-4 very bad ones that made you scratch your head.

    You can't build a winner making as many bad mistakes as Ireland has made, even though his tenure included occasional bright spots. Every GM misses on picks and free agents, but when Jeff Ireland misses, he misses very badly on key positions of high need that have little or no depth.
     
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  18. LBsFinest

    LBsFinest Banned

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    There's nothing to discuss anymore. he did a poor job, his dismissal is long overdue and league execs around the league were like many of us in that they couldn't understand how he still had a job, Ross is certainly regretting keeping him and ole Jeffy will never run a team ever again.
     
  19. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I look forward to the day that we no longer even have to discuss Ireland. I agree with you that everything possible in regards to Ireland has been stated so many times, it has become redundant. Hopefully in the very near future, we will all be discussing the prospects of the Dolphins under the direction of a new GM.
     
  20. Ludacris

    Ludacris Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    When are people going to realize that average is not good enough? Decent talent acquisition is not good enough. Any roster with holes will get exposed in the NFL. We have had decades of average GMs. Ireland has had years to put together a roster and it's clearly not good enough!
     
  21. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    For everything good Ireland has done in his career he's done it while creating more holes.

    Last year finally addresses QB. Gets rid of Brandon Marshall for nothing. Replaces him with warm bodies and a pack of gum.

    This year he gets a WR, some help on defense. Lets Long get away. Replaces him with warm bodies and half a salami sandwich. He'll never put the whole thing together properly. He's now been rebuilding his own mess for 3 years.
     
  22. TooGoodForDez

    TooGoodForDez Deion Sanders for GM

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    You have a guy who had 0 experience GMing, growing up in pro style run first Parcells system, drafting for that system for years, and now switching to WCO, in which he has 0 experience. They tried to revamp the team quickly for WCO, they failed. He failed at both systems. Now, it's a clusterbuck of philosophies, personnel and money mismanagement.
     
  23. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    That was on the coaching staff..... but Ireland bares responsibility for it b/c that coaching staff, which now seems inept, is on him. He can identify talent but seems to lack the sufficient vision to put it together.
     
  24. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    To be fair, Ireland grew up in Dallas's system, with KC and Carl Peterson prior. Parcells was enamored with his talent evaluation ability, professionalism, work-ethic, etc and arrogantly & mistakingly thought he could mold that into Parcells 2.0, which Channing Crowder once alluded to. That obviously wasn't Jeff Ireland, which is why we saw such a deviation from Parcells once Ireland took over. That's why I really didn't care about his time under Parcells and was prepared to give him his due time as GM in full control, starting from the time he was able to pick his own staff in 2012 rather than from the lame duck Sparano year which would've hindered any GM. I was objectively prepared to give him 2 full years considering the depth of scheme transition involved, but at this point I think I've seen all I need. He's a solid talent evaluator [as he's always been], but as a GM the vision thus far isn't there to tie it all together. Maybe he still has it in him, but I don't think I can trust him picking out the next coaching staff.
     
  25. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Eh tu, Todd?
     
  26. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    To be fair, we are one game out of the last playoff spot with 7 games to go, including 2 games against the only team that's currently ahead of us.
     
  27. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    yup. For the most part I like the team he's assembled, but I can't ignore his vision on how to utilize it, nor the coaching staff he signed off on that IMO has cost us 3 games that we should've won and fails to get the most from their players.
     
  28. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    We have lost 5 of 6 which is not a positive trend to be fair.
     
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  29. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    I get that.... but to also be fair, we should be at least 6-3 right now and could be 8-1. The only loss we should have is to New Orleans. The talent is there to make a playoff appearance but the coaching staff is coming up short IMO. If Ireland lacks the ability to identify a staff who can effectively bring his vision to fruition, or if his vision itself is flawed, then what good is it having a talented roster that can't win consistently? From what I've seen this year I'm not sure I can trust him to pick out another staff, especially when he and Philbin both mentioned how they shared the same vision. I'd keep him as a talent evaluator but would look for a different GM more capable of choosing a HC and implementing a better vision.
     
  30. Lee2000

    Lee2000 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This is kind of hard to defend (especially after Matthews did what he did last night), but Ireland has generally failed to hit it big enough on the offensive side of the ball. And he has missed on both sides of the ball throughout his time in Miami (e.g., Merling) and has been well, inconsistent. The question is: Has he been any more inconsistent that most general managers? I am going to get a touch emotional and say I am very tired of poor personnel decisions that go back to Wanny, and even Jimmy on the offensive side of things.
     
  31. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    I guess you could ask if you want a GM that is mediocre ( as you seem to say he has been ) , if you conclude he is that , then you move past the mistake asap imo . Or wait till it becomes utterly obvious.
     
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  32. TooGoodForDez

    TooGoodForDez Deion Sanders for GM

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    How about the defense too? He's been building it for 5 years. One step fwd two steps back. I knew the day he let go of Goodman to draft two rookie corners he wasn't the man. (I thought he sucked the day he draft a LT.) Goody had an awesome year, and wanted a decent contract, he got two rookies to start basically, and we got torched that year in the secondary following the playoffs appearance. Then, the scapegoat was the linebackers and the DC. He got rid of both, stuck with the corners, and drafted Odrick and Misi to boost up the pressure, cause it wasn't those rookies corners that sucked. Stuck with Henne, gave him no weapons. When people *****ed about it, he got Marshall for pretty penny. All this time they were building the Oline and defense. with Henne at helm. Results = nothing. Then, the head coach was bad, the system was bad, then QB was bad, everything is bad and needs his fixing except him. He's always been behind the 8-ball, chasing, fighting fires for problems he created in the first place. Drafting ok to bad, never beasts. mismanaging fee agency acquisitions. Six years were wasted. How many more years do we need to waste?
     
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  33. Lee2000

    Lee2000 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think in the opinion of fans and football people he has moved into the arena of mediocrity.
     
  34. Lee2000

    Lee2000 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    In fairness to Ross, he has likely developed a strong relationship with Ireland and it is simply difficult to discard a guy he has come to know. Probably knows his family and is aware of their efforts in advocating for their child with autism. But ultimately, you have to look at what is put on the field. Ireland has truly struggled in finding impact players on a consistent basis. Sure he had a Bess, drafted a Matthews and a Pouncey. But overall, not enough of his draft picks are making an impact and he has a terrible record with free agency.
     
  35. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's simple. He has failed. Epically, Olympically failed, by the most objective measure possible: wins and losses. Everything else is immaterial. Mr. Ross owes us, as the consumer of his product, the decency of trying someone else, despite any personal bond that he may have with Ireland. End of rant.
     
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  36. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    For some , for others it just affirms what they have seen prior to this mess. He has done some things ok , that isn't and never was the point. The point was he wasn't the guy ... he never was going to be the guy , he never moved past so so . Some wanted to wait , some didn't ... we waited ... unfortunately.
     

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