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Jim Turner, too much noise & short on experience?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by the 23rd, Oct 9, 2013.

  1. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    the offensive line has a coach who evidently is not doing his job very well
    can't help but think we already have enough talent to be at least mediocre
    got to take a serious look at what the offensive line's coach is all about...
    Jim Turner, too much noise & short on experience?
    I suspect the problem goes beyond the quality of players involved.

    I'm sure Philbin has taken a direct hand in their instruction, if not he should

    in a NFL of tremendous parity, coaching is of the utmost importance
     
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  2. LBsFinest

    LBsFinest Banned

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    I don't.
     
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  3. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    Well looking at the list of guys on the line you would think that we would be doing better than what we are. Martin had high raves coming out of college and was considered a steal where we got him. John Jerry looked as though he had turned the corner last season after struggling the first five/six games to start the season (maybe he'll come on again like this), and Tyson Clabo has been a consistant starter wherever he has played. Obviously Pouncey is a pro bowler and Incognito is doing his job, but one would think this line should perform better than it has...On paper. I think coaching, scheme takes some of the blame here. Really I think it's broken down into three areas. Tannehill is to fault for holding the ball too long 25%, Coaching/scheme I think takes a chunk of the blame 35%, and then the actual O-Line 40%.
     
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  4. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    CK has gone to great lengths to show that Tannehill specifically DOES NOT hold onto the ball too long...

    If anything, he is getting rid of it almost too fast - before he has time to hit his second or more reads. Sherman has him dropping back into the same position almost every snap. That plays him right into the teeth of pass rushers. Agree on the coaching...
     
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  5. unifiedtheory

    unifiedtheory Sub Pending Luxury Box

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    Numbers show this as false. He's getting rid of it quicker than almst anyone in the league.

    I blame 75% on the line, 25% on the coaching. The line is 60% trash.

    Sherman MUST start recognizing the shortcomings of this line and how it is capable of sinking the season. He also has to start COMMITTING to the run game. There was no excuse for why we ran the ball so little on Sunday and when we did run the ball we ran outside, not really trying anything in the middle of the field. When we are tied at the half and the game is really close after 3 quarters we should have had 20 carries. He also needs to roll Tannehill out, move the pocket, let him throw on the run. I'm starting to doubt Sherman, he's not Dan Henning yet though.
     
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  6. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=- Club Member

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    1,000%
     
  7. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    Easier said than done when your starting RB is averaging 2 yards a carry (ravens game). This team can't block in the run or passing game. Sherman is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.
     
  8. Serpico Jones

    Serpico Jones Well-Known Member

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    If you want to blame someone for the o-line mess look no further than the general manager, a man who has no clue how to evaluate players on the offensive side of the ball.
     
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  9. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    most people/fans seldom consider the grunts up front. however unglamorous, it does all start in the trenches. win the line of scrimmage & the attack unfolds, lose it & things collapse.

    few think about these behemoths as elegant or intelligent. but they are required to be both, as well as sophisticated in their movement & coordinated... a virtual chorus line of collective choreography every play.

    in addressing these unsung heroes, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts rings truest in football. it's more than simply being talented or a superior athlete, the entire offensive line must work in unison, moving as one. they must understand not only coverage but the strengths & weaknesses of each individual player in order to compliment & compensate each other.

    the timing, chemistry, technical & tactical knowledge of an offensive line is often overlooked.
    an offensive line requires serious coaching & time to develop correctly.
    we've had the time, with a pre-season, training camps & four games into the season to have become a reasonably functioning unit... I'm beginning to wonder about the quality of coaching at this point in our game.

    something to think about: "The Hogs" possibly the best offensive line in NFL history were coached by Joe Bugel without question one of the best in the business. interestingly enough, at their peak the average weight was only about 270 lbs. & they sported no first round picks that I can recall. the only one of them to make it to into the Pro Football Hall of Fame was Russ Grimm.
     
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  10. miamiron

    miamiron There's always next year

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    Sherman,Philbin,and Turner have over 40 years + of offensive line coordinator experience
    It's there job to get these players to play better not worse
     
  11. unifiedtheory

    unifiedtheory Sub Pending Luxury Box

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    We ran it 11 times, we did not get in "pass it every down" mode until the 4th quarter. Inexcusable. The Ravens were not doing anything in the run game either but they persisted and it was the key to their final drive, that won the game for them.

    You can't run it 11 times, ever. Even when Danny was in his prime we would run it more.
     
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  12. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    yep... got to at least keep the defense honest by running it. Another point on Sherman though is that if we run the ball on first down and gain less than 5 yards, we almost always throw the ball on second down. I'd like to go back and research that... but I'm pretty sure we're over 95% passing on 2nd down if we run on first down. Every once in a while I'd actually like to see us run on 2nd down as well. Just to see what happens if nothing else. Also, other than in a 2 minute situation, I'd like to see what our 2nd down run/pass mix is after we pass it on first down (and get less than five yards).
     
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  13. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I think it would be easier to grade Turner's job as an NFL OL coach if he actually had more than two offensive linemen who should even be playing in the NFL. He may or may not be a decent OL coach, but it is hard to tell based on the lack of talent he has to work with. That is on Ireland and that is why Ireland needs to be fired immediately.
     
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  14. toto

    toto Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    And you think the coaches had zero say in the players we drafted or signed...???
     
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  15. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I have never been a big supporter of the present coaching staff. I want Ross to hire a new GM and let that GM evaluate the job the coaches have done for the past two years. If this GM wants to retain Philbin and his staff, I'm okay with that, but if he wants to hire his own HC, I'm okay with that too.

    As far as what say the coaches have on the players picked in the draft and signed in free agency. Ireland may talk to the coaches to get some input on players, but he has final say over all player personnel decisions. Ireland wanted all this power and Ross gave it to him. I think the coaching staff has very little input in these decisions. Philbin is a first time HC and basically got the job because he obviously was willing to work in a system where Ireland has the ultimate power. No top tier coach would ever want to work under Ireland and that is why this team has been stuck with bad to mediocre HC's for the past six years.
     
  16. I think its fair to question Turners ability to coach.
     
  17. mcdave21

    mcdave21 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Absolutely.
     
  18. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Staff Member Club Member

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    Those numbers are ****ing crazy...
     
  19. NorFlaFin

    NorFlaFin Active Member

    The Hogs also had John "loosen up, Sandy baby" Riggins running the ball and a coach who believed in the run game.
     
  20. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    spot on... NorFlaFin!
    might I add/elaborate on your point?

    not going argue against the "new wave" offensive gurus, however, the way it has always (traditionally) worked is you get a push off the line of scrimmage, giving the running backs a point of attack. once the run is established the opposition defense has to crowd the box, rearranging the secondary... this opens the pass game. when they try to cover both, the QB uses options & now you are in the ballgame.

    a balanced attack is the winning formula in most cases. the Bears for nearly a decade had a domineering defense that landed them in SuperBowls only to come up short because an offense that could only run the ball. that was not the case with the RedSkins ( quarterback Sonny Jurgensen and wide receiver Charley Taylor set a passing records) & of course our own beloved Miami Dolphins during Shula/Griese era in Miami moved the ball on the ground & through the air.
     
  21. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Jim Turner, too much noise & short on experience?

    Defenses who don't know what the hell is coming next are going to give up a lot of yards, even if it is a "passing league." In our case, everybody knows Tanny is going to throw short. Either the offensive line gets it together or we're going nowhere, and the blame is on the GM, the OC and the OL coach as much as it is on anyone.

    Why are we so surprised that the chickens are coming home to roost? Any moron could have told the coaching staff that we had no blocking from the third preseason game on. In fact, we were desperate. Albert came. We didn't want to pay him. Winston came. We didn't want to pay him. Leach came. We didn't want to pay him. Here we sit with 20 million in cap room and no blocking. And everybody knows Tanny is going to throw short.
     
  22. PhinsRock

    PhinsRock Premium Member Luxury Box

    This was supposed to be a thread about whether OLC Turner is the problem or how much of the problem he is, or is not. I would just once like to see a thread address the issue posed instead of being taken over by the Ireland haters and putting everything in the world that's wrong, including the name of the new Prince William & Kate's baby as being Ireland's fault.

    My lord people, give it a rest and let people discuss a separate issue intelligently without diverting every thread because Ireland should be fired. I suppose it's Ireland's fault we are 3-2 after the toughest first 5 game schedule in the league? I honestly expected us to be AT BEST 2-3 at this point, dammed Ireland must be at fault for this lousy 3-2 huh?

    we all know the OL is this team's #1 problem, and our OL personnel are not top-line by any means. But this thread was supposed to be about Turner, the OL Coach, where has that discussion gone? The GM, HC, & OC all seemed to think we have sufficient personnel on the OL, or they surely would have put heavy pressure on Ireland to improve the personnel. I've seen NOTHING showing they did.

    In the draft if Ireland had sat at 12 most, if not all, the good OL prospects were already gone by 11. If Ireland had moved up to 3 like he did, but taken an OL this board would have erupted in mayhem, with the Ireland haters at the forefront. Give it a rest people and allow a thread to stay on topic once in a great while would you please?

    Sorry for the rant, just sick and tired of not one single thread on ANY topic turning into an Ireland-Hate-Thread and never addressing the topic of the thread. :tantrum:
     
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  23. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    Dang, PR... thought it was. Ireland is a horrible OLine coach. :shifty:
     
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  24. PhinsRock

    PhinsRock Premium Member Luxury Box

    My point exactly, fire the SOB! :shifty:
     
  25. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I have to admit.

    Right away when Turner was hired there was this video of him in action coaching the offensive linemen. He was all over the place, yipping and yapping. At one point he got down to the grass so he could eyeball offensive linemens' feet as they went through a certain drill. He starts yelling at a guy because his step was about a quarter of an inch too far.

    It made me shudder. It reminded me so much of what I perceived as Tony Sparano's habit of getting caught up in inconsequential minutae, which caused him to really focus on the wrong things.

    Other folks ate it up. I just kept thinking, what huge thing did you miss while you were caught up being concerned about one quarter of an inch of one step on a single drill?

    Also, during Hard Knocks...his supreme faith in John Jerry also threw me off a little bit. He genuinely thought John Jerry could be one of the best guards in all of football.

    It kind of gave me the same bad vibe that Dan Campbell gave me when he's off talking about how Pat Devlin is another Tony Romo.
     
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  26. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yeah I bought that and his personality, my feelings are this is football,and blocking the guy in front of you, it's not that complicated, motivation is the biggest enemy, and I thought he would be able to bring out the best in the players.

    Obviously though, he hasn't been given talent to work with...Jerry, Clabo, Martin suck..so maybe that's it.
     
  27. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I think feet are very important, however I don't think you should be too concerned about how high you move the feet. Choppy is good enough.

    Jerry, Clabo and Martin might suck, however I do believe a good coach can get more out of them. Tony Sparano Jr. got more out of Jerry than Turner.

    Then you look at the back ups and young people and they all look lost during preseason. In fact, they look as lost in the hall of fame game as they do later in the 5th preseason game.

    Take the DBs and the back up linebackers. Both of those groups looked pretty bad in the hall of fame game, and yet by the 5th preseason game, you can see actual improvement.
     
  28. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Footwork and balance, core strength..teach those things fundamentally, then step back and motivate..

    We need to run the ball more, I'm pretty sure as a group they are better at that then pass protection, so lets run the damn ball more, so we can balance our offense, and most importantly give our defense rests during the game, Jesus, were 28th in time if possession..
     
  29. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I would add scheme and blocking techniques, like combo blocking. With those, I agree.
     
  30. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's not rocket science Pree, which was my original point and why I felt that Turner would be a good coach, I thought he could just get the best work ethic out of them..maybe he's just to technical when he should be just challenging them to put the guys *** in front of them on the ground...idk, who the hell knows, we don't know if turner is the problem.
     
  31. maynard

    maynard Who, whom?

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    If the assistants are an issue, I really do wonder how likely it is that Philbin gets rid of them. He is a loyal guy and also seems like the kind of guy that assumes responsibility and not one to shirk it off to his coaches. In other words, I see him seeing a failure of his coaches being partially his fault.

    Philbin has known the guy a long time so I get that, but Turner was also part of the Sherman package and I think that there may be a Sherman issue in the building. I'm not saying that Sherman should be canned, but that close relationships have their good sides and bad sides. Whatever one thinks Sherman, the guy has basically done it all the NFL and I'm guessing that carries some weight in the building. What if Sherman goes to bat for Turner? Would that create an issue? I don't even want to bring up Zack Taylor at this point, I'm really not sure how Philbin would deal with getting rid of staff that he feels loyalty toward and may feel responsible for.
     
  32. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I know it is not rocket science, however it should be taught. A good double team, with one of the players sliding off to block the linebacker could be the difference between a 3 yard gain and an 8 yard gain.
     
  33. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    What is wrong with Zack Taylor? Both Tannehill and Devlin have done well with him as a coordinator.
     
  34. maynard

    maynard Who, whom?

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    You have to wonder though if that military style was masking what was not an NFL level coach. A 1/4 inch foot placement might the equivalent to how neatly a marine makes his bed. That's great, but what matters is how you command in the battlefield.
     
  35. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Gahhh, I just had bad flashback to the Sam Shields story.
     
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  36. maynard

    maynard Who, whom?

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    Nothing that I know of, but my point on Taylor is that I think its highly improbable that he was the best choice for the job. I don't think you want to take chances like that with your #1 pick. Taylor is the kid you bring in after your young QB has a couple of years under his belt. Wait a bit before you exercise the nepotism clause.

    Even so, if Taylor was doing good thus far, my larger point is I wonder how Philbin would deal with Taylor if he didn't think he was doing a good job. I'm a bit worried that Philbin is a good guy to a fault.

    I opposed hiring Taylor for 1) hard to believe he was the best candidate 2) hiring the son in law of your OC that has a well-deserved ego is problematic, imo
     
  37. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Sure, I can understand that, but like I said, do you think there is some recipe for blocking, fundamentals, technique that isn't common knowledge, isn't it more about the position coach inspiring the player to want to perfect his craft?, for me anyways his style of coaching would inspire me.
     
  38. maynard

    maynard Who, whom?

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    IDK, but what does Alex Gibbs know that Jim Turner doesn't? Beats the crap out of me, but the results are sure different. Maybe Turner doesn't have a good eye and can't prioritize or maybe his communication style sucks. I have no idea
     
  39. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This isn't the first time I've typed this on the forum, and barring a dramatic turnaround in the next 11 games, it probably won't be the last time, but I believe Joe Philbin's best course of action is going to be to hire two new coordinators at season's end...along with an O-line coach. I also agree that Philbin may be a "good guy" to a fault. IMO, the Dolphins would be better served if he were more hands-on with respect to the offense a la Sean Payton.
     
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  40. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Have you posted your detailed thoughts on this somewhere?
     

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