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Joe Philbin vs John Fox

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Paul 13, Jan 12, 2013.

  1. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    If anyone was watching the Broncos/Ravens playoff game (Marathon in Mile High).. first of all, how could you not? You missed a hell of a game. But at the end of regulation I thought John Fox went ultra conservative and cost his team the game and I wonder if Joe Philbin would have done the same thing?

    First instance, 3rd and medium from close to midfield. It's at the two minute warning and the Ravens are out of timeouts. If you run the ball, you keep the clock moving assuredly. However, if you put the ball in Peyton Manning's hands, you might win the game. So what does John Fox do? He runs the ball, they don't get the first down. The Ravens get the ball back from around the 20 yardline IIRC, and Flacco does his thing. Stupidity by Moore the Broncos' safety lets the Ravens receiver get behind him and the Ravens tie it up on a touchdown.

    Second instance, the game is now tied at 35. The Broncos have the ball back with around 30 seconds left in the game. The ball is at their 20 yard line. They have two timeouts left. Fox decides to kneel on it and send it to overtime (where anything can happen, and as we know now, the Ravens ultimately end up winning the game... there were also some curious decision to take the ball out of Manning's hands on consecutive drives.... of course, in the end Manning's INT costs them the game.

    But these two specific instances lead to a measure of conservatism by the coach and ultimately lead to the Broncos losing the game. Would Philbin have done the same thing???

    I think not. We saw a couple of big brass balls instances where he went for it on special teams this year. He's an offensive coach. John Fox is a defensive coach (he's a former defensive coordinator). Fox believes in his defense. He believes they will win him the game. IMO Philbin is not like this. He would have thrown the ball on third down in the first instance named above. He also would NOT have kneeled on the ball with 30 sec's left and two timeouts, and the Ravens didn't have any timeouts either. He might have handed it off to see what the back could get him on a draw instead of throwing it, but IMO he DOES NOT KNEEL DOWN there...

    Thoughts??
     
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  2. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    As a devout worshiper at the Church of Philbin, I don't think you can say Philbin is conservative or ballsy, which is another reason I am a believer. I think Philbin assesses each situation differently, whereas a Sparano is always conservative.

    A-Joe-men.
     
  3. Serpico Jones

    Serpico Jones Well-Known Member

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    Well we certainly know what Sparano would've done...
     
  4. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

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    I would've let Peyton throw it.
     
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  5. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    You're nuts if you think Philbin is the ultra conservative. Or even close to it.
     
  6. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    On the 3rd down play you run the clock and I think Fox is right there. With 32 seconds left and Peyton Manning and 2 timeouts I think you let him give it a whirl. At the very least I would have given him at throw (see if he can hit Thomas or Decker for a chunk play) or run a draw for Hillman...something misdirection in the run game maybe. We've all seen Peyton do that.
     
  7. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Thought it was crazy to not let Peyton try and get them into FG range with 30 seconds and 2 times outs. How many times has Peyton done just that? 30 seconds and 2 timeouts is an eternity for him when a FG is all that is needed to end the game.
     
  8. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Exactly. What's the point of having Peyton ****ing Manning if you don't use him in clutch situations? That like trolling for women in a Corolla with your Ferrari in the garage.

    A-Joe-men
     
  9. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

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    Perfect analogy :lol:
     
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  10. evz

    evz Feral Druid Club Member

    I agree the whole thing seemed weird. I kept wondering if Peyton was hurt or something. It just made no sense to take the game out of his hands. Of course he did end up throwing the pick that ultimately cost the game, but that was after another fifteen minutes in that crazy *** cold weather. Was also kind of interesting how a very exciting game got pretty boring in the OT... All the running on first down... sigh...
     
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  11. oakelmpine

    oakelmpine New Member

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    I agree I said at the time to my wife, they (Denver) could regret this, and by golly it came back to bite them in the ***.
     
  12. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    I think Fox made the right decision. The air, excitement, momentum, etc... Just got sucked out of the stadium and the team. Kneel down the ball, take a moment to let the nerves settle and refocus. They're playing Baltimore too... It's not like their D is trashy. They've got playmakers.

    The OT format allows a little breathing room in regards to being conservative in a spot like that. What are the odds of scoring with 30 seconds left? Very slim. You're most likely getting the ball in OT and will have a real chance to win rather than hurrying **** up and risking an error (with no momentum, and a dazed team).

    And let us be reality... Peyton Manning might be the biggest choke artist in the history of the playoffs. He and his brother are diametrical opposites. Peyton goes 13-3/12-4 every year and puts up MVP numbers like no one's business but chokes in big playoff games. His brother barely makes the playoffs (if at all) and statistically is very average but clutches on the big stage. Do you really trust Manning given the situation/context of the game?
     
  13. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    well, I know I don't trust that Broncos defense to win the game at the end of regulation and in OT. How many big plays did they give up today? I sure as hell trust Peyton Manning to win the game (48 4th quarter comeback victories or whatever the stat is). There is no way he is the biggest choke artist in the history of the playoffs... I can think of at least a 100 different guys who deserve the honor.
     
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  14. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    I've lived in Charlotte NC for 5 years. That is classic john fox football. Panther fans hated it. run 3 plays and punt "foxy ball".


    Put it this way, Fox would never kick an onside kick against a divisional opponent or call a fake punt. Philbin did and will again. Philbin uses his playmakers, thinks outside the box, and is innovative. Fox is stuck in the 18th century getting lucky having Peyton Manning as his QB/OC/asst HC.

    Fox is the same guy that clamored for a Jake Delhomme contract extension IJS
     
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  15. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    I wouldn't trust Denver's D either. But If I'm coaching, I don't think 2 timeouts and 30 seconds is enough to make me force the ball down the field given the team and stadium were shell shocked. Against the Ravens D, who were fired the **** up... And with the playoff format the way it is, I think it was the right call. Honestly, the only coach who doesn't kneel is probably Bill Belichick. Dude has gone for it on 4th down inside his own 30 (unsuccessfully) so I wouldn't put it past him. He also knows TB is the most clutch QB in NFL history.

    Maybe you can name 100 players who choke more than Manning (doubt it though). But you can't name one who does it with his regular season resume. He got the talent and Eli got the clutch factor. 2 rings to 1 ring. I'd also add, the year he won the SB, his defense carried him there after he sucked it up for three straight playoff games. I feel bad for the dude. They were the better team. He played well enough to get a W. But his D sucked and he threw a horrible pick at the worst time. And he's done it enough to be called a choke artist.
     
  16. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Something about fox I don't like, I feel shallow saying it, but when I hear him talk in the locker room, his demeanor as a coach just rubs me the wrong, maybe it's because I have seen the back of his throat by the way he chews his game like a fu$&in cow.
     
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  17. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He coached the game like a guy that has had Tebow and Delhome as Qbs instead of Peyton. Denver's defense crumbled, I have a hard time just pinning it all on Fox, those big plays given up on defense were just awful. The 3rd and 7 play was the one I would have went for, Peyton is going to get that about 50% or more of the time, I think thats a strong calculated risk. I do hope that we have a coach that would go for that 3rd down play it wasn't that risky and considering the way their defense was playing it was worth it, I thought so at the time.
     
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  18. PHINANALYST

    PHINANALYST Well-Known Member

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    while i'm not a big Fox fan, i think coaching had little to do with DEN losing ... Manning threw 3 picks, fumbled and their Safety played god awful .... and they still coulda, shoulda won that game. BAL should have never, ever even had a chance at the game. if Peyton were wearing a PHIN uniform, you'd be crucifying him right now .... or giving him a 'pass' and lambasting the Safety. Those 2d and 3d interceptions were inexcuseable and pitiful ... even Henne might not have thrown those passes.
     
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  19. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I don't think Peyton is well equipped anymore to mount a comeback in that situation. He's pretty much a short/mid pass guy now and with so little time and so far to go you needed a guy who could pass a little deeper. I'd think the odds of him getting them into FG range vs. making a mistake that gives the game away like he did at the end of the game are pretty even at best, maybe even slightly against him.
     
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  20. CrunchTime

    CrunchTime Administrator Retired Administrator

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    I got the impression the cold was effecting Payton.He really looked very stiff throwing the ball and that effected his accuracy.Age and all of those operations catching up with him.

    I wouldnt be suprised if he retires soon.
     
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  21. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Both calls were correct by Fox. Philbin has made similar decisions as well.
     
  22. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    There aren't many players that have his regular season resume. A, you're limiting it to quarterbacks. B, he's one of the top five quarterbacks of all time. I guess Marino was a choker worse than Manning because he loses the SB ring battle 1-0 :pity:
     
  23. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    I guarantee our fans (like any fans) would be mad at the coach first before pointing the finger at the HOF QB.
     
  24. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    Or wants to play somewhere a little warmer... like Arizona.
     
  25. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    Similar... but not the same. Not in the playoffs... not with the season on the line... not with a HOF quarterback calling the shots.
     
  26. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    I think this is true. Fox is nothing more than a serviceable coach with one of the best QBs to ever play the game.

    Peyton Manning is to John Fox what Chad Pennington was to Tony Sparano. A very cerebral and in Peyton's case great QB masking a coach's weaknesses.
     
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  27. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    To add, Peyton Manning can still rip it good enough. His arm is not an issue. That offense, with those receivers, hard to get behind a defense.
     
  28. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Serviceable coach? He went to a SB with Jake Delhomme and won a playoff game with Tim Tebow. Jon Fox is a great coach.
     
  29. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    A great coach is Coughlin. Fox is not in that stratosphere. Fox is a Fisher...average.
     
  30. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    True. But I'm glad he's not our coach. It's the conservatism that gets me. You can be conservative and win in this league. But it's not my preference.
     
  31. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Fox's record speaks for itself IMO.
     
  32. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    This is great to you?

    Regular season 94-82-0 (.534)
    Postseason 6-5 (.545)
    Career record 100-87-0 (.535)
     
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  33. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Yes anytime a coach can have a record over .500 with that type of longevity its an accomplishment IMO. Tom Coughlin being another great example.
     
  34. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    So there's really no difference between the words "great" and "good" or "solid" for you?
     
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  35. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    There is. Being over .500 over 5 seasons with Jake Delhomme as your QB makes you a great coach IMO.
     
  36. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    John Fox f*cked up big time. Nobody will convince me otherwise. Ask yourself, what would Bill Belichick do with Tom Brady and 2 timeouts? With 2 timeouts and 15 seconds he would take chances. Guaranteed.

    You don't invest in Peyton Manning, one of the greatest QB's in NFL history and kneel the ball with 30 seconds and two timeouts. If you don't trust Manning to make a play or believe he will have a turnover, then you have NO JOB coaching the man. It sent the wrong message to Manning and he responded in kind when he tried to make a play out of nothing.
     
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  37. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

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    This explains why you love Teflon Jeff.
    You are happy with mediocrity.
     
  38. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    Do you prefer a "great" mediocre coach come playoff time, or a winner?

    John Fox coached scared and the results became predictable once the game was tied.

    Wonder if Manning and Elway will have a discussion around that;
     
  39. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Being barely over .500 is not great by any stretch. There isn't even an argument to be made that it is. Good, decent, reliable, etc but great? No way.
     
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  40. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

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    John Fox:

    [​IMG]
     

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