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Josh Rosen is the future a counter offer thread

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Dorfdad, Sep 2, 2019.

  1. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

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    So everyone is assuming that Rosen isn’t the future based on our fire sale and the starting of Ryan Fitzpatrick and to be honest it might be true, or maybe just maybe the coaching staff took a hard look at this team and said we’re 3-4 years away based on what we got and decided that the veterans they let go aside from Tunsil would be making too much money or up for major extension bu the time the team would be in contention and decided to just build through the draft like all good teams do.

    That said with no left tackle and a poor offensive line put Rosen out there this year would do no good. He could get hurt and learn bad habits running for his life. What wrong with sitting him for a year let him see the game from a different perspective and probably get into the game this year for some experience.

    sign a stud LT next offseason and built the line stack with draft picks and let him progress with some good young talent? We can draft a QB next year as well but Rosen will be in the mix as starter and tua or anyone else can ride the bench and take the position away from Rosen.

    I just think the front office has decided no rush
     
  2. The Guy

    The Guy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I appreciate the alternative viewpoint, but I don’t think there is any front office or coaching staff that has been given the green light to “take their time,” such that they believe they have a franchise quarterback, which is the key ingredient in winning in today’s NFL, and nonetheless sit him on the bench and make a large number of personnel moves that indicate they have no intention of winning in the near future.

    If you believe you have a franchise quarterback, you go ahead and play him and start winning, rather than appearing to rebuild at best or tank at worst.
     
  3. You dont "play him and start winning" if you have a franchise quarterback but virtually no other pieces in place (and this was the case long before Tunsil was traded). This regime obviously has the leash to take their time, this is a long-term systematic strategic plan. Rosen will undoubtedly be part of that either as the main man in Miami for years or as one who will offer considerable competition to any new QB brought in/drafted. The actual fact is that with the right pieces put into place, Rosen will dispatch of Tua/Hebert/Fromm quite easily, he is easily as talented or more than any of them.

    Flores clearly likes Rosen and sees his talent but he is also going to protect him as well as push and test him in ways he has never experienced. Nothing the Fins have done recently indicates whatsoever that they do not value Rosen. He is an elite 1st round QB talent acquired for relative peanuts - he will be given every shot and opportunity to establish himself as a tier-1 guy in Miami. He may not succeed or may even be beat out at some point (he obviously wasnt by Fitz, there is much more to this decision than what is on face value), but this regime liked him enough to acquire him, they see his clear talent, and they know if they get this kids head right and perhaps stoke his coals some, they are dealing with a transcendent type player. Anyone who simply paints the trading of Tunsil as some type of indication of Rosen's "not being the guy" is really taking a simpleton approach. They didnt want to move Tunsil, but sometimes in business you take an offer you cant refuse - as no NFL GM would turn down what they got for a pretty good LT and a dip**** like Stills. Just because you sell your house for $500K above market value doesn't mean you have decided to ****-can your BMW in the garage because you have to find a new place to put your car. Rosen is 100% in the mix and will be given EVERY chance to develop into the Alpha role over the next 12-18 months. Thgere is NO rush here anymore, a new paradigm has begun. Sit back, light a cigar, take a nap, read War and Peace, and do not try to decipher every move this regime makes with old-fashioned perspectives and incomplete information. Enjoy Rosen's development, you finally have a big time talent at QB, now it is up to him.
     
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  4. The Guy

    The Guy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    What other pieces aren’t in place? You had a premier left tackle, a very talented receiving corps, and a talented and multi-faceted running back. If Rosen is so talented, he should be able to compensate for whatever else is missing.
     
  5. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Cut it out. The Dolphins were predicted to be what, a 6 win team before all the trades.
     
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  6. The Guy

    The Guy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    And that’s because Rosen is great and the rest of the team is terrible?

    You don’t figure their quarterback situation factored into that prediction?
     
  7. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I'm saying that if losing these players hasn't really affected the win predictions, then those guys weren't helping to win games in the predictors minds. I mean, you painted a picture there where you basically described the 90s Cowboys like Rosen had that around him potentially.
     
  8. The Guy

    The Guy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    How do you account for the quarterback position in those predictions, if Rosen is indeed the “transcendent player” the fellow above described him as?
     
  9. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Dude was a first round pick. He certainly has elite talent. You don't throw that away after one season. I mean, we'd have a crappy win prediction if we had a rookie QB that we'd just drafted, regardless of how much potential the rookie had.
     
  10. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Just using this thread to make my remarks, but is it me or does it feel like every thread is becoming the same old tired merry-go-round conversation?

    I was literally about to comment about the importance of a solid OL when it occurred to me, “how many times have I said the exact same thing about the exact same topic?”

    There’s only so many times you can go round and round before the ride gets boring.

    I’m hopping off. See you guys once the games actually start and there’s substance to discuss
     
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  11. freeperjim

    freeperjim New Member

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    Well stated!
    As a new Phan, I find it quite puzzling that so many here have chosen the "tank for tua" pathway without even giving Rosen a chance. Perhaps because Miami has had a long string of failed QBs since Marino and fans are "trigger happy" to move on to the next QB at the slightest bump in the road?
    As BCM stated, Rosen has elite skills & intellect but, before Miami, was never taught how to read a defense including UCLA & AZ. That he far outplayed a highly intelligent veteran in pre-season speaks to how quickly Rosen has progressed. He also has stated Fitz is the best mentor he's ever had speaks to his humility.
    So to this new Phan, it appears "Plan A" is to use the new draft picks to build a championship team around Rosen and his elite skills.
    As an aside...I find many of the beat writers - paper & internet - to exhibit this "trigger happy" bias in their pseudo-reporting while lacking facts to substantiate their opinions. One internet "reporter" has been jumping from Tua to the QB at Utah to yet another QB - all in the past week or so.
     
  12. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores

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    I don’t think the team has given up on Rosen. It’s up to him on how we proceed. If Tua is there we still may draft him, but that doesn’t mean Rosen will not have an opportunity to beat him out. He should look at this as an opportunity to prove the doubters wrong.
     
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  13. The Guy

    The Guy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I’m with you on hopping off the merry-go-round. At least when we were talking about Tannehill’s performance as a function of his surroundings, he was actually playing.

    Now we’re beginning to do the same thing with someone who isn’t even playing, who was traded from his first team in favor of a different quarterback, and whose current team is acting like it has no intention of winning anytime soon.

    But if only those missing pieces were in place, Rosen would be on the field and lighting the world on fire.
     
  14. Is this a serious question? The Dolphin's roster was universally believed to be in the bottom 25% of the league before Tunisl or anyone else was moved on from. But If you need a run down, the entire OL vice Tunsil, the fact they have 0 big time playmakers at DE, they have maybe 1-2 starting level LBs, they have a limited WR core with an always injured parker and a few midgets coming off of career type injuries, the TE room is OK but no one is salivating over Gesicki and Smythe, the secondary is pretty good with a very good X, but Minkah is inconsistent and young, Jones takes whole games off to pout, Tankersley, mcCain, lol whatever. This is all very pedantic as the Dolphins basically had/have no pieces to build around. Tunsil was a good LT, not great, not elite, who was just pretty good at run blocking, so to portend that the Dolphins had a bunch of franchise-building pieces in place is really just obtuse.
     
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  15. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    James graded out higher than Tunsil last season; both were borderline elite despite playing injured. And now they'll both be among the highest paid linemen in the league- I think it's safe to say they were better than "good". We did need about 2-3 more starting caliber linemen to compete...now we need 5 or 6.
     
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  16. The Guy

    The Guy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So your belief is that Rosen is a franchise quarterback at the present time, but he is being held at bay until sufficient surrounding talent is acquired on offense and defense?

    Also remember that any belief regarding the Dolphins’ ineptitude necessarily considers the inadequacy of the personnel at the quarterback position, the most important position on the field, and which includes Rosen.

    It’s as if you’re touting the widespread belief in the team’s ineptitude to support your point, but somehow divorcing Rosen and the quarterback position from that belief. Somehow Rosen is a star, and the rest of the team is such a ball and chain on him that it places the team as a whole in the bottom 25% of the league?
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
  17. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Dude, we don't know what we have in Rosen yet. He looked solid in pre-season and great in college. That's all we know so far and there's no sense arguing this. Miami sees promise in him or they wouldn't have signed him...we're all in "wait and see" mode for now.

    Maybe the better question is, "Do we want him to develop into a franchise QB?" Of course we do! That would make all the moves we've made all the more sweet.
     
  18. The Guy

    The Guy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You’re presenting that point to me, someone who readily agrees that we don’t know right now what Rosen can be, instead of presenting that point to the people who believe that we do know what he is right now, and that he’s actually a star!
     
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  19. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I mean, he's a good quarterback with a lot of promising tools...but so is every rookie that's drafted early. If this was Rosen's 1st year then everyone would be sky-high in hopes that he's the man, and since the situation is so ridiculously screwed up with his last 15 months that's how I'm personally viewing it as well. I get why you don't see it that way but it really doesn't change anything- either he'll be a stud or he won't.

    In other words, I'm telling myself he is the man until I see proof that he's not. With this line, there's simply no way that I'd put him out there in week one. I wouldn't want to start Russel Wilson behind this line to be honest, because I know he's an MVP candidate and I just don't want to lose him for 10+ years for him to try and prove himself in a meaningless game.

    Because let's face it- 2019 does not matter in any way, shape or form. So why get a prospect's *** kicked when it really won't tell us much anyway? He belongs on the bench until we at least have a little line chemistry with our "starting backups."

    If you're right, then the correct move is to bench him. If I'm right.....then guess what, the correct move is to bench him. So it's the correct call either way.
     
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  20. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

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    they may believe he is capable but needs a year to learn the offense. Why rush him out with a bad team and ruin him like Arizona basically did. Give him some perspective let the bet take the hits he’s more savy and protect Rosen for next year??
     
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  21. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

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    they also know these guys are going to want. If time money really soon and they decided they might not be ready or they were not ready to offer that up until a team is in place.
     
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  22. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    You have to realize that Rosen was a project or else we wouldn’t have gotten him so cheap. You’ve used the words great and talented in this thread. Clearly he isn’t great or we would have given up multiple first round draft picks for him. He’s got potential but that isn’t going to be realized in one offseason.
     
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  23. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Dolphins offensive coordinator: Josh Rosen isn't starting because he's 'still learning the offense'
    https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...rting-because-hes-still-learning-the-offense/

    First-year head coach Brian Flores said Rosen's preseason performance made it "harder" for him to name veteran journeyman Ryan Fitzpatrick the Dolphins' Week 1 starter, but he has also regularly downplayed the possibility of Rosen usurping his elder early in 2019.

    Offensive coordinator Chad O'Shea had similar sentiments on Tuesday, telling reporters the 22-year-old trade acquisition has yet to master Miami's offense entering the season.
     
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  24. The Guy

    The Guy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So does that mean they’re not saving him from the supposed ineptitude around him?

    I would recommend that for every external variable to which people attribute a quarterback’s performance, they nominate another two or three in their minds that are internal to the quarterback and consider those.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019

  25. To call James as "borderline" elite is ridiculous. Using salaries as an indication of anything in an inflationary league is equally dubious. By your logic Jared Goff and Dak Prescott are "borderline elite." As they will soon be the two highest paid QBs in the league. Prescott, as we know, is barely competent and Goff is just pretty good. James was not near being elite, Tunsil was closer but not there either. And stop throwing around stupidity like "they graded out," by who? Some dip****, rating service for couch potatoes? You have no idea how this new staff graded James or Tunsil in pass protection, in run blocking, in assignment recognition, in the weight room, etc etc. Unless you think Coach Flo is googling PFF grades James 2018. That is not how it works in adult level football. I would not be surprised if they thought James was a fat peice of ****, and Tunsil was a sloppy, under-strengthened lazy *** who struggled in run blocking. At the end of teh day, you have no insight into what this team thought of them.
     
  26. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    So you're saying to ignore PFF and similar metrics completely....just to take your word for it because we're all too stupid to understand adult football? That's quite the statement.
     
  27. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    If the team thought that of them they would be wrong, so I really wouldnt give a flying **** what they thought. Just like you're wrong so no-one....
     
  28. The Guy

    The Guy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    A player’s salary is an indication of his value as well as the relative importance of the position he plays.
     
  29. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    You're getting it twisted. Clearly Rosen has some work to do, otherwise, we wouldn't have picked him up for a song. That, however, doesn't mean that he doesn't have the potential to be great. But for him to learn what he needs to learn, it probably isn't beneficial to throw him out on the field before he's ready, behind this awful line. When you do that, sometimes the guy develops bad habits instead of being able to focus on the things he needs to improve.

    Not sure why you're running around crusading like this.
     
  30. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Not really. Oline play is terrible, correct, league wide? Teams will overpay for overage or above average linemen because they're hard to find. Landry got a big deal, not because he's elite...
     
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  31. The Guy

    The Guy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I have agreed with the point that he has potential and may actually become great someday. My point is that the team does not view him as great at the present time. They aren’t viewing him as great right now and holding him at bay because of his surroundings.

    What they are doing with him right now has everything to do with him internally and nothing to do with his surroundings.
     
  32. The Guy

    The Guy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I didn’t say the two variables I mentioned were exhaustive in relation to indications of players’ salaries. Certainly supply and demand is a factor and your point is well taken.
     
  33. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores

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    I am not sure how something can be a fact if it hasn't happened yet and Tua/Hebert/Fromm still have a season to develop before we can actually compare them. That said, I think Tua is enjoying playing behind a decent OL at Alabama so that may inflate his statistics a bit. I think many agree that if you give most any NFL QB enough time they can get the job done. I am not sure what Hebert or Fromm have as OL and if helps or hurts their play. I liked what I saw from Rosen in pre-season and I hope that we continue to keep him around. If we do manage to draft Tua then I hope we can have a fair QB competition and let the best man win. Tua has the intangibles and Rosen probably has more physical gifts. It would be a good battle. However, it probably won't happen though. If we do take Tua #1 then it's his job to lose and Rosen will really have to really outplay him to get a shot. If as you say he is superior then that shouldn't be a problem and either way we win because we finally have our guy.
     
  34. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree with @The Guy .

    If the franchise truly believed that Rosen was special and had the tools to step in as the guy we'd see him starting along with Laremy Tunsil protecting his blindside.

    But that's not the case. Quite the contrary. The team is stockpiling picks to draft a QB next year. They traded away their best offensive lineman to help ensure they are in place to get a QB.

    That doesn't say Rosen is entirely out of the picture. I'm sure he'll get a chance to play this season. I can't recall the last time Fitzpatrick actually played a full season anyhow. He'll start playing poorly and we'll see Josh Rosen at some point maybe before the end of September. Who knows?

    There are several ways in which Rosen may end up in line to start next year as well. Bottom line is Rosen will get his chance but the franchise isn't going to put all their eggs in that basket.

    I mean, why on earth would they? Josh Rosen has not looked all that great in his short tenure in the NFL. By all accounts his ability to read defenses is behind schedule and he seems to put the ball in harms way on a regular basis. To me, he very much seems like a guy who is a developmental project at this point.
     
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  35. The Guy

    The Guy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    And if that was the case and they weren’t doing that, they would have an even bigger problem, because it would represent a failure to recognize the key ingredients in winning in the present day NFL and field a team accordingly.

    At that point our confidence in the team’s ability to have its compass pointed the right direction in terms of fielding a winning team in the future would be seriously shaken.

    So, you either have to believe in Rosen right now, or you have to believe in the team and its ability to know what wins.
     
  36. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I just don't think Tunsil has anything to do with the Rosen equation.
     
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  37. The Guy

    The Guy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It’s the combination of three things: 1) the fact that he was traded from a team that drafted him in the top 10 overall after only one year and starting 13 games that year, 2) the fact that he isn’t starting now, and 3) the Tunsil/Stills trade that weakens the offense significantly and garners the team resources that could be used to put it in position to draft a quarterback at the top of the first round.

    Taken together, that’s an awful lot of information that suggests that the team doesn’t view Rosen as anything special right now. One has to bend over backwards to think anything otherwise in my opinion.
     
  38. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    1 and 2, aren't what I'm talking about ftr.

    I'm just saying them trading Tunsil (and Stills) had nothing to do with their feelings about Rosen. They can feel super optimistic or super pessimistic about Rosen and the Tunsil deal goes down regardless, imo.
     
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  39. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If I thought Rosen was the guy I probably wouldn't have done the deal. So I have to believe it signaled something in regards to what they think about Rosen.
     
  40. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Look at it this way- they said "NO" to trading Tunsil at least a half dozen times. They had a 1st and a solid player straight up for him- that's hard to say no to. But they did. So I think a lot of people are reading too far into this when we knew Rosen wasn't going to start day 1 anyway.
     

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