i think whats worse is continuing to run the plays you want and trying to make the players adapt... not adapting for your players...

this overuse of play action, bunch formations, ***** offensive gameplanning is not for Henne, and obviously its not working... you would think our OC would change something up seeing how that **** has worked out so far for us this year :pity:

 

Nice post brother!

Some will still ignore yet more glaring proof that Henning is in fact at least a part of the problem but most of us already knew what he's saying.

 

Are you working under the assumption that Henne is not allowed to audible? Didn't he check off from a pass to a run on the 3rd and 10 on the first drive of the Cleveland game?

 

Just remember who Henning's boss is and who has final say as to what can and can't be done when it comes to audibles. Why doesn't Sparano just tell Henning that he wants Henne to be able to do X, Y and Z? Is it because Sparano agrees with Henning? And if so, why does Henning take the heat?

 

Yeah, who was that coach who scripted plays to start the game? His name is forgettable, could not have been that good. :)

Other than that, it is a debatable topic.

 

Sarcasm?

 

Killing from a run to a pass is not an audible. Killing to a new formation with new routes is. If they are in a Cover three set and have a great D line, you want to throw to the middle of the field or curls. If all you can do is kill to a run into say Vince Wilfork, that isn't an audible. It's dumb.

 

There is a (I believe) misconception out there based on an article someone wrote that stated Henne killed the pass play on those third and long runs. I went bac and watched the game again (and please, everyone else feel free to do the same) and Henne didn't change a thing. He walked up to the line, and never motioned anything.

I think a quote from Henne was misrepresented, and now all the world believes he changed the play. Go watch the tape...he didn't.

 

I questioned a guy here who also said the same thing in another thread. I wondered how he got that idea because I too never saw him audible anything on that play. The guy never answered me. Go figure.

 

There are different variables between the 2 QBs that played a huge role in the Win Loss Column and production.
In Penny's 08 season:
1. He played arguably the weakest schedule a team could ask for over the past 3 years, where as Henne's was probably the toughest.
2. He had the benefit of a Wildcat that the league was not yet prepared for.
3. We were in a division w/o Brady.
4. We were in a division w/o Rex's re-made Jets.
5. He had a true receiving TE who helped open up the field and underneath game.
6. He had Ginn's vertical threat who helped open up the underneath game.

However, when Penny played teams (in 09 too) like Henne has faced all this year, we lost most of those games..... and the offense was more anemic than it is now.

 

Is this hamstringing of Henne all on Henning? Doesn't anyone think that Sparano is on board with it?

 

Yes. As the top dog he can either a) make Henning change some things up or b) find a new coordinator.

The fact that it has gone on for so long seems to indicate that Sparano is at least mostly on board with what Henning has been doing.

 

I think it's gotta be part Sparano too. He loves that ultra-conservative crap just as much IIRC.

It seems like they've done so much to try and control him and turn him into what "they" wanted him to become, that they completely took him away from what he "should've" become. Between this super-conservatism and the freaking practice bell, I think they've gotten so far into his head that it's killing his game.

They've literally conditioned him to become their very own Pavlov's Dog!! "One second...... two seconds..... 3 seconds..... Ok gotta hurry up and throw the ball--- the bell is sounding off in my head." "So what if there's no pressure bearing down on me during this play; I'm conditioned to hurry up and get the ball off on EVERY SNAP."

 

What are Henne's strengths that go well with a spread offense?

 

There is absolutely no proof of this. None.

 

It's called classical conditioning. It's a psychological tool that's been used, studied, and accepted for years. What do you think the reason behind the practice bell is for? :wink2:

Are you now disagreeing with accepted psychology?

 

I am disagreeing with the use of accepted psychology. There is zero proof that the coaches have conditioned Henne from taking chances. There is the exact same probability that on the bigger stage he is unable to adjust.

No one here knows how Sparano or Henning have coached up Henne. People are just speculating.

 

So what you're saying is when you burn your hand on a hot plate, that you continue to keep touching it?

 

If you're disagreeing with the effects of classical conditioning, then you're fighting a serious uphill battle my friend. It's about as accepted as the world is round.

 

This isn't even worth debating if you actually disagree with classical condition. Sparano believes in it, which is why he began using the bell in the first place. He wanted Henne conditioned to get the ball off in a certain amount of time....... or else he wouldn't have used the bell in the first place.

I'm still shocked that you believe the brain can't be conditioned, yet you yourself have been conditioned throughout your entire life.

 

Did you read what I wrote or you disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing?

Is that how you have been classically conditioned?

 

He wanted Henne to get the ball off in a certain time, that does not mean he wanted Henne to check down

 

I started a thread a few weeks ago asking if anyone else remembered when Henning was hired, it came out that he only agreed to come here if he had complete control of the O. I have tried to find it, but cant. The reasoning for this arrangement was because Sparano was a first time HC. and Henning didnt want to answer, totally, to Sparano. I got the impression that Henning was here just to do Parcells a favor. Now some of this is my interpretation of it, but I have a hard time believing I dreamed all this all up. It would explain why certain things are happening and NOT being stopped.............unless I am STILL asleep.

Does this not sound familiar to ANYONE???? Some one needs to agree with me or come WAKE ME UP. I am SURE this happened.................I think.

 

So do you not think that a lot of Henne's game looks "hurried" at around the 3-4 second mark of his decision making, where to go with the ball, etc?

Checking down IMO is a sign that sometimes you're in a hurry to get the ball off b/c you dont want to wait for a play to develop..... and in this case the practice bell has conditioned him to not wait for a play to develop even though he appears to have extra time in the pocket.

Considering we play in a 20 yard box at a time, it's pretty hard to not have to check down more often.

 

I read your post perfectly fine. You said that you disagree with the use of accepted psychology, so I responded to that. If you disagree with accepted psychology, then there's nothing to talk about b/c it would be like arguing with Galileo that the world was round.

 

Thats patently false. Sparano himself has said that Henne sometimes "needs to extend his mental clock in the pocket"

 

No you read what I wrote wrong. You read it as if I disagree with the psychology, which I did not say. If I did disagree with it I would say, "I disagree with the psychology." I am disagreeing with your use of the psychology.

It would be more like you are saying that Henne isn't a good qb because Galileo said the world is round. Then I would be disagreeing with your use of using Galileo's work.

 

That is on Henne to make the decision. It is his job to make the right decision in three to five seconds.

 

If you're conditioned to get the ball off before the "bell sounds off in your head", then you're gonna check down more times than take chances b/c checking down is the last option, where as spontaneously chucking it down field is NOT. When the bell goes off, you know where your checkdown guy is gonna be..... but you don't always know exactly where all your guys on routes will be.

The bell forces a QB into making a hasty decision when the situation doesn't always dictate it. If you're making a hasty decision, you're going to your check down guy; that's why he's there in the first place. And it's not like we have the fastest WRs/TE in the world; they ALL take time to get open.

If the bell never existed, then he would be in less of a hurry to get the ball off when his protection is strong, and he'd be able to look for more guys downfield to make plays rather than looking for his dump off receiver like the bell conditions him to do.


No bell = More time to figure out where to go with the ball when protection is strong.
Bell = I'm conditioned to get the ball off at a certain time even when protection is strong.


When the bell subconsciously goes off and his guys arent open yet, then he's dumping it off even though it appears as though he has more time to throw the ball and wait for something to develop.

This is psychology 101 stuff. It's pretty basic..... that's why even dogs can be trained to come running for a dinner bell even when there's no dinner sitting there.

 

thank you. That only proves my point all the further that his "mental clock" is going off and forcing him to get rid of the ball. That's b/c Sparano conditioned him to the damn bell to begin with.

If Tony wants him to extend his mental clock, then he should've never introduced the friggin bell in the first place. Sparano has gotten EXACTLY what he wanted: a QB programmed to get the ball off in X amount of time. The bell worked just as it's supposed to work..... just as it's worked for years and years. Now Tony can eat his ******** bell.

 

Do you realize they drill all sorts of situations?

 

No if I am conditioned to get the ball off before teh "bell sounds off in my head" then I am passing it down field

The bell forces the QB into making the correct decision. Not hasty decision.

If the bell never existed then Henne would have even bigger problems with his decision making.

NO bell = horrible decision making that takes forever
Bell = going through progressions in the correct amount of time.

If the bell goes off and he doesn't find the open wide reciever that is on him. he has to find the open wide receiver. he is failing to find the open wide receiver.

it is basic psychology 101 stuff, that is why it does not apply the way you are presenting it. It is taking a complex situation and trying to break it down into something simple. With your analysis no west coast offense quarterback taught by Bill Walsh could have a quarterback who could improvise. Since bill Walsh used steps instead of a bell.

 

you said:

so I'm not sure how else to take that. lol.

To be fair, my use of psychology is the "accepted use" so if you're disagreeing with me than you "are" disagreeing with the psychology of it.

The bottom line is this:
A. Sparano wanted to condition Henne to get the ball out quickly
B. He introduced the practice bell FOR JUST THIS PURPOSE
C. Sparano has achieved his goal of conditioning Chad to get the ball out quickly b/c we're seeing the proof on the field. It doesn't matter how smart you are, if you hear that bell enough times, it's gonna condition you.

Henne's been sacked only 17 times in 10 games; last year was 26 times in 13 games (evidence that he's getting the ball out quickly).... and he's checking the ball down prematurely at times.... and he's taking less chances down field..... more proof that the bell has conditioned him to make hasty decision during the time in which the bell "would be going off".

This is all backed by the fact that Sparano now wants him to extend his mental clock that he shortened with the bell to begin with.

 

And if he reaches that 4 second mark, he's conditioned to hurry up and get the ball off b/c that's what the bell is for.

 

I am disagreeing with the way you are using it.

"To be fair, my use of psychology is the "accepted use" so if you're disagreeing with me than you "are" disagreeing with the psychology of it. "

That is totally wrong. That is not how science works. I can agree with the psychology and not agree at all with how you are applying it to this situation. Which I do not.

#1. It is way too simplistic
#2. It assumes that this is the only drill that the coaches use
#3. It also assumes that it causes quarterbacks to check down. (Since all west coast qbs do not check down this is obviously false)
#4. It takes away all emotional aspects of Henne
#5. It disregards all other classic conditioning of Henne
#6. It disregards the mental capacity of Henne
#7. It disregards Henne's ability to read the defense (Against man he is amazing, against cover 2 he sucks)
#8. It assumes that making a decision in 5 seconds is "hasty"

 

Then it is on Henne for not making the right decision, unless the wide recievers are covered.

It also could condition Henne to run with the ball, which is what Brady does when his bell goes off.