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Kiper Re-Grades 09 Draft

Discussion in 'NFL Draft Forum' started by Gunner, Dec 23, 2009.

  1. Gunner

    Gunner Rock Hunter

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    Full story is here:

    http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft10/insider/news/story?id=4764103

    This is his Phin's regrade - his research is a little off as Smith was a 2nd round pick:

    Miami Dolphins (Spring grade: C-)
    You get two starting corners and you should be happy, right? Well, in Vontae Davis and Sean Smith (Rounds 1 and 3, respectively) Miami gets good players with low ceilings. The real disappointment that lingers is the Pat White pick at No. 44. I said then he had to play WR for this to be of any value, and they appear no closer to solving the issue. You can still land serious impact at that draft spot, and this could be a total waste based on their direction now. Oddly, Hartline bumps this, as he may be a decent late value.
    Current grade: B-
     
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  2. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Not sure why anyone would say Davis and Smith have low ceilings.
     
  3. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Davis and Smith have low ceilings? WTH constitutes a high ceiling then?
     
  4. LandShark13

    LandShark13 New Member

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    Let me first start off by saying that I think Kiper is an Idiot. Well that may be a bit harsh but the man is egotistical and opinionated, and can't escape comments he's made like these.

    or

    or

    or


    Those are just a few examples. In my Opinion Mike Mayock is way better.

    With that said however a grade of B is never a bad thing. Yes we would always love to get straight A's but that's an unreal expectation and we wont really be able to fully evaluate last years draft for a couple years.

    Personally though I agree with him on the Pat White selection. I haven't seen anything from him that even gives me an ounce of hope that he could be a good NFL QB much less a game changer. I'm not a coach though and I'm not watching this kid develop at practice. But right now he's tried to complete 3 passes and missed on all three.
     
  5. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Maybe he meant low floors? Like low bust possibility?
     
  6. Gunner

    Gunner Rock Hunter

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    :pointlol: I'll never forget that war of words he had that day ... pretty classic.

    As much of a tard as Kiper can be, he still makes for some good forum fodder
     
  7. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    One was like 75 yards down the field :lol: okay over doing it a bit but it was deep, cant fault him for that so much and his first NFL pass?

    The other two I'm pretty sure he was just throwing the ball away.
     
  8. LandShark13

    LandShark13 New Member

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    I feel ya bro, but you would have to think if he was doing well in practice he would get more opportunity's during the game. Fact is every time I read a practice report on him in wild with his passes. One of them even went out of the practice field which was reported to never have happened before....
     
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  9. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    Someone should tell Kiper that Smith was drafted in the second round.
     
  10. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I don't have a problem with a 'B' grade.

    My problem is with what could have been. I thought we should have taken Nicks, Smith and which ever of the the three LBs (Sintim, Barwin or Kruger) they preferred with our first three picks. We wouldn't have needed Turner b/c of the Nicks pick (same type of WR). And I thought there were several DBs that were available later. I was a proponent of these picks before the draft and with the benefit of hindsight I even more firmly believe it would have left us stronger than we are now.
     
  11. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    He got that part right.....but I was "crazy" for suggesting it
     
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  12. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Kiper is not very sharp at projecting into the NFL, by saying White "has to be a Wr to make this draft successful" he shines light on his opinion, but not on P White.

    As for "low ceilings", what more need be said? And if they do have low ceilings, then why the B-?

    Idiot got burned yet again with a misgrade, not unusual for Kiper.
     
  13. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    idk, I think it's balls on accurate
     
  14. azfinfanmang

    azfinfanmang Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Someone should tell that cartoon character to respectfully STFU :up:
     
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  15. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Mel Kiper's hair thanks you.
     
  16. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    Mel Kiper is pompous bag of wind. Most of the time he's wrong, and has too much of an ego to admit it. If you want NFL draft analysis, Kiper is the last one to go to. Mike Mayock is much better, as is Todd McShay. Seriously, I get pissed everytime I see Kiper and his hair on the TV Screen...
     
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  17. mroz

    mroz Fix the OL Club Member

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    I re-read the low ceiling line like 20 times... Just don't get it...

    The fact that he thinks we drafted Smith in the 3rd round is kind of funny...

    No mention of Clemons who is not a well know name when it comes to NFL players BUT any time you are getting ST play and some base defense play out of a rookie 5th rounder you have done "something" right with that pick.
     
  18. dolphan117

    dolphan117 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I honestly dont know how in the world anyone who has watched any tape of Miami thinks either of our rookie corners has a low ceiling. Consistency issues? Sure. Gotten burned deep some? Sure. Could they both turn out to be average players? Anything is possible........ But low ceiling?

    What. The. Hell.

    Both of their measurable are outstanding.... Only thing you can really pick on in terms of genuine weakness that may stay with them is that Smith is a very poor tackler.
     
  19. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Todd McShay is the worst draft analyst in the business bar none. Kiper's longeivity speaks for himself and if you read his guides or more importantly look back at his predictions on freshmen, sophomores, etc., then you'll realise exactly how good he is. The draft is subjective and whatever you think about Kiper, he watches the film and does the work. Mayock is very good, an X'sand O's type in terms of specific player conversions to the next level. Kiper IS the NFL draft and he deserves an awful lot of kudos for making it the event it is today.
     
  20. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    For some reason Kiper and Phil Simms are whipping boys on this site and FH. I don't understand either case.
     
  21. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    So Boom, what do you think Kiper meant by "low ceilings"?
     
  22. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well away from here
    O.K. I gotta say that Simms is rather annoying. I don't know what it is, but he just irritates me for some reason.
     
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  23. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    Smith is a poor tackler and he's kept out on the wing in part because he's suspect laterally. He's a good player, but I think that the talk has gone pretty far in terms of his potential. I like him, but I don't exactly see the quickest guy in the world out there when I watch him. And his tackling is sometimes pathetic.
     
  24. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    The sound of his voice is a bit annoying. I'd rather read what he has to say rather than listen to him. Simms is usually spot on to me. I agree with him that our current WR goup, as a group, is crap. At that doesn't mean that there isn't value in Cam/Bess/Hartline. It means that as a group, including the crappy Ginn, they're pedestrian at best. Same old story, but a true one- they need a #1 so they call assume they're supporting roles. Also, he was dead on years ago about Fiedler and how his wristy throwing motion was at best troublesome and at worst a death sentence. IIRC he called Fiedler a Safetie's wet dream, and he was right. Fiedler shot out more floaters than a fat man at a pie eating contest.
     
  25. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Sorry , but Elvis Kiper is not the draft in any shape or form. There were better draft gurus before him and since. He has plusses don't get me wrong , but there is no way he currently is at the top of the list for player evaluations.
     
  26. LandShark13

    LandShark13 New Member

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    Quoting this comment by Mel because a few of you agreed with this. I'm not discounting your opinion, but I'm going to tell ya why I don't agree.

    To me this is just another example of why Mel Kiper is over rated. For him to suggest that in order for a QB selection to show true value he would have to excel at ANOTHER position is truly ludicrous. You never hear anyone grade a RB by saying for this to pan out he would have to become a solid punter. White drafted as a QB so if he pans out as a QB I will call that pick success. If in the future he shows an aptitude to play WR and excels at it then all the better and again I will call that pick a success. If in the next couple years he shows he can be a quality QB and is now running our "white package" or as I like to call it "whitecat" with success then again I would call the selection a success.

    NOTE:
    I have already gone on record for questioning the selection of white and my opinion there hasn't changed. This doesn't mean that it couldn't change. In fact, all that it would take would be for white to excel at anything that helps us win games.
     
  27. Gunner

    Gunner Rock Hunter

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    I think Boomer was referring more to his "style" of draft coverage that has helped in making the NFL Draft coverage what it is today than only his ability to evaluate talent. Can he be irritating at times? Yep, no doubt about it ... but you can't deny his appeal to the average draft groupie either. If he was bad at promoting the NFL Draft product, ESPN would have canned his butt a long time ago ... because as we all know, a majority of their focus is about ratings ... even at the expense of journalistic credibility sometimes.
     
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  28. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I think it underlines the mentality of some people Jim. Kiper is an easy target for a generation of draft fans who think that it's all about the mock draft. If I went into the loft and got out 15 or 20 years of Kiper publications and looked at his rankings for players that weren't seniors, he's hitting the nail on the head with kids three years from graduation and I don't just mean the Super Blue Chippers.
     
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  29. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    If it wasn't for Mel Kiper, the business of the draft would not be what it is today. His name is synonomous with the selection meeting. Joel Buchsbaum and Kiper are the two grandfathers of the draft. I don't want to repeat myself but if you read his literature on a consistent basis then you'd realise how good he is. I am a fan of the draft because Mel Kiper made me one and his opinion is the one I trust more than anyones on player rankings, etc. I don't mean the watered down nonsense on ESPN where he has to share a stage with that douche McShay after Mel made an issue about his wages. I mean the work Mel does 365 days a year scouting, watching film, attending practices, and using his remarkable contacts. I think it's naĂ¯ve not to see him as a very important reason why the draft is as popular as it is. Is he going to sit there and break it down like Mayock? No because that's not Mel's game. The proliferation of TV coverage and the internet which has led to a million 'draftnik wannabees' of which I myself am one, owe a great debt to Kiper who was doing this before the internet and before NFL Network.

    With that in mind, Kiper encompasses everything that's good about studying the draft.
     
  30. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Exactly Gunn
     
  31. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Completely agree with Simon on Mel Kiper. The more I've studied what he does, the more you realize he knows what he's talking about.

    Also agree on McShay. I laughed so hard when I read this one blurb on Pro Football Talk about a personnel guy talking with Florio about how McShay is completely clueless and has no idea what he's talking about, how he contributes to juniors making the mistake of coming out because agents tout his word and convince prospects and their families that McShay does know what he's talking about, etc.
     
  32. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Kiper is good at what he does but when your in that position making "matter of fact" comments are microscoped. I mean look at what he said about Faulk and the Colts...even if he is right 4 out of 5 times people will remember that seemingly arrogant comment instead of talking about the 4 he hit on.

    Nature of the buisness.
     
  33. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    For every comment about Faulk, I could reel off 10 comments about players he got right from so far out of left field. Nature of the business - no-one is right all the time.
     
  34. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    You just said exactly what I did...he does get it right more than not but its the publics nature to focus on the negative rather than the positive.
     
  35. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Yeah I know, I was just re-inforcing your point. ;)
     
  36. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    bump...curious as to your take
     
  37. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Sorry mate, I'm not sure. I know he rates them both. He had VD as his number one rated junior defensive back, calling him in Jan 'extremely gifted with a very bright future' and said of Smith that he was a fast riser and that once he learned the position, the sky was the limit. Perhaps he thought they were low ceiling in terms of risk? I dunno.
     
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  38. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I thought it just meant straight up that he doesn't see either player getting much better than they are.
     
  39. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    CK, do you believe that too? I just dont see how Top round draft pick ROOKIES have hit a CAREER ceiling that is indicative of ROOKIE play.

    Cant believe it, actually I think Kiper will/would back off this statement and claim typo or something like injuries (which I dont understand that label being applied to either)....but low ceilings for growth, potential, success?

    It just doesn't make sense being less then one year removed from his praise during the draft.

    It has to be an error - typo - type stuff.
     
  40. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I don't see how anyone could look at Davis and Smith and not see that they had a lot of growth in their games.
     

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