Against Cleveland in game 1 last season he was targeted 5 times and had 1 catch for 15 yards when facing Joe Haden, whom he called out before the game. http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/12601/mike-wallace It was unclear exactly what he was sulking over after the game considering we won, but he was targeted 11 times in game 2 against the Colts. Lazor seems to be making more of an effort to make him feel "featured" than Sherman did, though Sherman didn't seem to be ignoring him.
Good point. Piggy-backing on your second paragraph- It's not a random coinkydink that Lazor is doing what he's doing here, moving Wallace around and so forth. It's because he flat out believes it will be MORE PRODUCTIVE/SUCCESSFUL than telegraphically leaving Wallace on the right boundary ad nauseam. He saw the impact FIRST HAND when he joined a sputtering offense that went Top 4 overnight. So in essence, Pate is arguing against Lazor and his knowledge of what works, and works better than Sherman's way of cementing Wallace on the right perimeter and limiting his potential as much as possible. I think it's silly to believe Wallace stuck in one spot all the time can be as productive and efficient as a Mike Wallace who is moved around more. That's like saying every situation in the NFL is exactly the same, that play X, Y, Z with Wallace in the slot would have no different outcome than the same plays with him on the right boundary, and vice versa. It just won't happen.... and I guarantee that Wallace is NOT and WOULD NOT be the worst receiver from the slot for every possible route run there. Actually, there's just no way someone will convince me that there are no instances whatsoever where Wallace wouldn't make for the best possible option out of the slot. I can put this all to bed with one example even though there are many behind it. There are instances where a go route needs to be run from the slot, either to clear out/create hesitation or to serve as the primary target. Is there anyone on the roster better suited than Wallace at getting deep? Nope. If you wanna run and out and up from the slot like Philly occasionally does with DeSean, who on the roster has the speed to convert that long-developing play faster than Wallace? No one. Which receiver is best equipped to take a screen? Wallace. If you wanna run a hi-low stretch to clear out the underneath or flat, who's gonna pick up the most real estate catching a drag underneath with some green in front of him? Wallace. Not a guy on the team who could run a better speed-out than Wallace where, for all intents and purposes, the receiver has to beat the safety to the spot for the reception. How about a corner route from the slot where you're hoping for a big play? That's not crazy route running or mega timing, you throw to a spot and let him go get it. Anyone on the roster better doing so than Wallace? No, not many in the NFL are. But nooo, in Sherman's offense or Disgustipate's offense where they think it's irrelevant to move Wallace around, Mike would be on the outside twiddling his thumbs on these plays while they're being thrown to Gibson, Matthews, or Landry. Gee let's see- Gibson, Matthews, or Landry running a vertical, corner, speed-out, screen, or drag from the slot as the primary?... or Wallace running it as the primary? Is it even a question of who the best option is unless Wallace is being used to clear out? Yeah, there are no doubt instances or specific offenses or specific receivers where it doesn't matter as much if they're moved around or not.... but obviously that's NOT the case in Kelly/Lazor's offense that uses movement, confusion, unpredictability, etc to score a lot of points, even without Brady, Manning, Brees, or Rodgers at QB..... and it's not the case with a guy like Wallace who commands extra attention. Would Pate have an argument if we were instead talking about a non game-changer like Hartline whom defenses don't pay extra attention to? absolutely.
All that above, and the fact that it's just about making athletes who are big strong fast and sometimes dumb, making them think and hesitate before they release their athleticism.. Same reason Why I believed in the read option when most did not, why it works, and why I want to run the piss out if it.
What?? DeSean Jackson had a year's experience under his belt when Wallace entered the league in '09. One of those two receivers didn't average 1000+ yards and 8 TDs for the next four years..... and his name rhymes with LeSean Lackson. Here's Jackson's career without Chip Kelly compared to Wallace's 5 year career avg: [TABLE="class: grid, width: 850"] [TR] [TD="align: center"][/TD] [TD="align: center"]targets[/TD] [TD="align: center"]catches[/TD] [TD="align: center"]%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]yards[/TD] [TD="align: center"]avg[/TD] [TD="align: center"]TD[/TD] [TD="align: center"]TD%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]1st Downs[/TD] [TD="align: center"]FD%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]TD-FD%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]20+[/TD] [TD="align: center"]40+[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Jackson 5 yrs pre Kelly[/TD] [TD="align: center"]105[/TD] [TD="align: center"]55[/TD] [TD="align: center"]52.2%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]957[/TD] [TD="align: center"]9.1[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.6[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]37[/TD] [TD="align: center"]37%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]39.4%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]17.6[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.4[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Wallace 5 yr avg[/TD] [TD="align: center"]109[/TD] [TD="align: center"]62[/TD] [TD="align: center"]56.4%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]997[/TD] [TD="align: center"]9.1[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]42[/TD] [TD="align: center"]41%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]45.3%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]15.6[/TD] [TD="align: center"]6.4[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] *** With the 20+ and 40+ stats above, keep in mind Jackson's first 5 years were spent in Andy Reid's vertical attacking system. Wallace wasn't afforded that luxury the past 2 years under Sherman & Haley and his production took a hit because of it. However, in Wallace's 3 yrs in Arians' vertical, play-action heavy scheme that better used Wallace's rare ability, the stats change markedly. [TABLE="class: grid, width: 880"] [TR] [TD="align: center"][/TD] [TD="align: center"] targets[/TD] [TD="align: center"] catches[/TD] [TD="align: center"] %[/TD] [TD="align: center"] yards[/TD] [TD="align: center"] AVG[/TD] [TD="align: center"] TD[/TD] [TD="align: center"] TD%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]1st Downs[/TD] [TD="align: center"] FD%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]combined TD-FD%[/TD] [TD="align: center"] 20+[/TD] [TD="align: center"] 40+[/TD] [TD="align: center"]combined 20-40+[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Jackson 5 yrs w/ Reid[/TD] [TD="align: center"]105[/TD] [TD="align: center"]55[/TD] [TD="align: center"]52.2%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]957[/TD] [TD="align: center"]9.1[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.6[/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.4%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]37[/TD] [TD="align: center"]37.0%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]39.4%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]17.6[/TD] [TD="align: center"]5.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]23.0[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Wallace 3 yrs w/ Arians[/TD] [TD="align: center"]95[/TD] [TD="align: center"]57[/TD] [TD="align: center"]60.0%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]1069[/TD] [TD="align: center"]11.3[/TD] [TD="align: center"]8[/TD] [TD="align: center"]8.4%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]43[/TD] [TD="align: center"]49.4%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]53.7%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]20.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.7[/TD] [TD="align: center"]27.7[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] ***Keep in mind Wallace started just 4 games as a rookie.... and he caught 4.7 more 20-40+ yarders in 10 less targets. Anyone wanna argue that Wallace was astute and crafted his first 3 years in the league than he is now as a veteran? Let's go one step further and compare their best two years [minus Chip Kelly]. [TABLE="class: grid, width: 880"] [TR] [TD="align: center"][/TD] [TD="align: center"] targets[/TD] [TD="align: center"] catches[/TD] [TD="align: center"] %[/TD] [TD="align: center"] yards[/TD] [TD="align: center"] AVG[/TD] [TD="align: center"] TD[/TD] [TD="align: center"] TD%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]1st Downs[/TD] [TD="align: center"] FD%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]combined TD-FD%[/TD] [TD="align: center"] 20+[/TD] [TD="align: center"] 40+[/TD] [TD="align: center"]combined 20-40%[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Jackson best 2 season avg[/TD] [TD="align: center"]107[/TD] [TD="align: center"]55[/TD] [TD="align: center"]51.4%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]1106[/TD] [TD="align: center"]10.3[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.5[/TD] [TD="align: center"]7.0%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]37[/TD] [TD="align: center"]38.7%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]41.6%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]19.5[/TD] [TD="align: center"]9.5[/TD] [TD="align: center"]29.0[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Wallace best 2 season avg[/TD] [TD="align: center"]107[/TD] [TD="align: center"]66[/TD] [TD="align: center"]61.7%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]1225[/TD] [TD="align: center"]11.4[/TD] [TD="align: center"]9.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]8.4%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]51[/TD] [TD="align: center"]52.0%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]56.1%[/TD] [TD="align: center"]22.0[/TD] [TD="align: center"]8.5[/TD] [TD="align: center"]31.5[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Why stop there. Jackson is coming off a ridiculously productive season, and what did he command on the open market as a reflection by the league of his perceived value? $8.0M/year for 3 years. Wallace came off a down year in Pitt yet landed $12.0M for 5 years..... and turned down $10.0M from Pitt..... and reportedly turned down $12.7M from Minnesota.
I think Disgustipate meant "more" as in more on the field as a WR, not just production. Hence the word repertoire. If Wallace ran just one route, the go route, all year and had 1400 yards, the point still remains Desean is a more complete WR. I agree, minus attitude I love Desean. When people were slobbing over the Brandon Marshall trade calling him top 3 in the NFL, I pointed to Desean as someone I liked more just because I felt Brandon's strengths just aren't desirable to me for a top tier WR (low ypc which means dink and dunk all the way down the field, no quick strikes).
Marshall is a great WR. But he's not a game breaker. He can catch 21 passes and you still lose. 21 passes, ypc 9.5 long of 23. What the crap is that? That's just a great game for a running back. And his team scored 16 points. Him + Alshon though ... that's a combo I take all day. Him plus Wallace too. I do like Brandon, just thought he was overrated. Didn't want to trade for him, but at the same time didn't want to trade him away.
If Brandon Marshall isn't a "game breaker" at the WR position, who is? Guy is legit top 5 in the NFL.
I agree for the most part..150 catches on 7,000 attempts 9.4 average.... No play offs....lol. You know what I love about that dude, every year he tries to make people think he's fast, he did the ole I'm gonna time myself on the treadmill trick.. Dude is a comeback route face the LOS player, look closely, watch when he catches, he will always go laterally because in his mind he knows he doesn't have the speed, dead giveaway for a player who lacks it, and boy does he lack it. Two years with us up close and personal, completely overrated.
Marshall's only real flaw is dropping passes. Marshall is still a monster regardless and a big time playmaker. Suggesting his time in Miami is indicative of his overall talent is a ridiculous statement when he's had unbelievable success sandwiched between.
Two years during his prime is no small sample size, he isn't some other player now, he's 30..he has more flaws then dropping passes, he's slow..that's a pretty big one. He's the best body up receiver in the game, that's what he is, I'm not saying he sucks or isn't good, relatively speaking, salary, perception, I just have him as a bit overrated and not elite.
Yeah pretty much, and currently is not top 5 imo. Calvin Johnson D Thomas AJ green. Dez Bryant Larry Fitz Andre Johnson Sammy Watkins...yup I know he's a rookie, but who's more of a threat to a defense and who would you take on your team if you had to choose?... It ain't Marshall. He's lucky Josh Gordon is a Putz. I often wonder how many targets it takes for Marshall to gather his production relative to the elite receivers in the game..I'd be willing to bet it's a fairly large discrepency.
Sampling: Marshall 2013 - 100 rec, 163 tgts, 1295 yds, 13.0 avg, 44 lng, 12 TDs (career high) Jeffery 2013 - 89 rec, 150 tgts, 1421 yds, 16.0 avg 80 lng, 7 TDs Johnson 2013 - 84 rec, 156 tgts, 1492 tds, 17.8 avg, 87 lng, 12 TDs Green 2013 - 98 rec, 180 tgts, 1426 yds, 14.6 avg, 82 lng, 11 TDs Bryant 2013 - 93 rec, 160 tgts, 1233 yds, 13.3 avg, 79 lng, 13 TDs
IMO moving a WR around is a huge advantage. I wouldn't want Wallace in the slot every play b/c I like using size in there in certain situations, but that speed threat can be huge from the slot as well. If the D backs up it's an easy 5 -10 yard completion that negates even a crappy OL. Or you run Wallace deep and have that hard to cover crossing pattern underneath it. Those are easy ways to get receivers in space. Basically there are situations where different skill sets create an advantage for your offense. If you refuse to move those skill sets into position to take advantage of the D you're simply not using your player's talents to their maximum advantage. I don't hate Sherman and even see an advantage in having him here to ease the transition for RT particularly that first year. But last year he clearly didn't use the offensive talent on this team as well as he could have. At best he was average last year when there were several coaches who were difference makers. It didn't use to be that way. Historically most coaches outside of a Shula were six of one, half dozen of another. But nowadays with some coaches embracing the more unique skills of their players and some not, the coaches are making a difference. A decade ago a Kaepernick is a third stringer with potential. He's just a guy with a strong arm who struggles reading defenses. You put him in a traditional offense and you're going to see that weakness hurt the team. His strength as a runner will only be seen occasionally. The fan base will complain, the team just won't be as good. Today his ability to run can be used by a smart coach and he's good enough to help get you to three straight NFC championship games while you teach him to read defenses. You're masking that weakness and you're getting all those big plays from his strengths. The difference is the ability of the coach to maximize his strength and hide his weaknesses. It's the same thing with a WR like Wallace. You keep him in one place and you're seeing both his strengths and weaknesses. But if you move him around, you're masking his sloppy route running and lack of physicality on contested balls and more often getting him in space where his speed translates to more big plays. Add half a dozen big plays over the course of the year and how different does last season look? A few big plays is often the difference between a mediocre team who misses the playoff and playoff team or even a championship team. The talent gap in the league is just that close. A coach who maximizes his talent can make all the difference.
It should be obvious to you that even these stats aren't going to change the opinion of the Marshall haters on this forum. They will just never admit that trading Marshall away was a bad idea. The fact is that he is still far and away a superior WR to any WR now on the Dolphins, but they will continue to argue that he was a bad influence on the Dolphins. Funny how the teams record has remained mediocre even with him being traded away. He obviously wasn't the problem when he was with the team. It was the talent around him which was the reason for the mediocrity of this team over the past five years. Marshall was the one player on the offense over that time period who was an actual pro bowl caliber player at his position. You know how bad the hatred for Marshall happens to be when someone like DJ ranks a rookie WR, who has yet to play a single down in the NFL as being a better WR than Marshall. That is so absurd, it is laughable.
That's not accurate. Mike Wallace this year was targeted deep more than he ever had been in his career, and more than Jackson has ever been in his. They're totally comparable in other years. I would still very much like to see who claimed Mike Wallace was double teamed to such an extent.
I'm a big Marshall fan, but like any player you need to put complementary pieces around him and you need to use him in ways that maximize his strengths and hide his weaknesses. I think Miami failed in both of those regards while he was here.
You're forgetting that the Marshall that is now in Chicago is not the same player who was here. He is one of those guys who must have a support system and complimentary pieces around him and he has that now in Cutler, Jefferies, and Trestman. Going back to DJ's point, you'll note that Marshall, even with his career year in TDs, has the lowest average and shortest long play of any of those guys. Like JDang, I didn't want him, but didn't want to trade him away either. That said, I understood that Philbin wasn't going to put up with his off field antics and why he may have considered him a detriment to rebuilding a team. I also think that what DJ was getting at was that Landry may be a better team fit and team player who is more interested in contributing to wins then personal targets or stats.
That is basically the problem I have had with Philbin from the start. He comes in and decides that he can't coach a certain type player. So Marshall is traded away and Davis is traded to the Colts before they play a single season under Philbin. Next the entire leadership counsel for the Dolphins in 2012, Long, Bush, and Dansby are either cut or not resigned in free agency. The problem is each and everyone of these players were replaced by players who were inferior players at the position these players occupied while with the Dolphins. So instead of building the team around a solid core of players, the Dolphins under Philbin decided to get rid of these players and replace them with players who weren't as talented. It should also be noted that after each of these players left the Dolphins, they all had more success with their present teams than they had in their last season with the Dolphins. So obviously other head coaches are able to get quality play from the same players Philbin didn't think fit what he was looking for in a player. As far as Landry being a better fit for this team than Marshall. If Marshall had just been traded in the past few months and Landry was drafted with one of picks received in the Marshall trade, this argument might make sense. But because Marshall was traded before the 2012 season and Landry wasn't taken until the 2014 draft, the trade of Marshall obviously had nothing to do with the drafting of Landry, two years later. I think Landry was drafted this year because the coaches weren't satisfied with the WR's they now have on the roster and not because of anything to do with Marshall. Personally I think that if the Dolphins had a quality head coach, they could be a winning team this coming season. I just think that Philbin is a below average head coach and that he just doesn't have what it takes to get this team to the next level. I see this team going 7-9 or possibly 8-8 again this coming season and hopefully Ross will finally come to the realization that Philbin just isn't cut out for the job. The perfect scenario for me would be that Harbaugh refuses to sign a contract with the 49er's after the 2014 season and Ross once again makes a play to sign him as the next HC. Only this time he should NOT force Harbaugh to only take the job, if Hickey remains the GM. If Harbaugh wants Hickey to remain as the teams GM, I would be fine with that. I just want Ross to give Harbaugh the opportunity to have input over who the GM will be if Harbaugh decides to come to the Dolphins. Getting Harbaugh as the next HC for the Dolphins probably won't happen, but I don't see Philbin making it past the 2014 season as the Dolphins HC.
I'm not sure I agree that the Marshall trade wasn't what the team needed at the time with him coming off a average season and a stabbing arrest; we turned the 2 third round picks to OV and Egnew. Now, in hindsight knowing the type of season Marshall had, it's easy to say we screwed up. I didn't think letting Long and Bush walk at the time was a bad idea, with Long having constant injuries and a sub par season and Bush was not used well in our offense. I do however agree with you that Philbin is not a good coach, based on the staff he brought with him namely Sherman. Now that he doesn't have full control, we'll see how he manages as just a head coach.
It's like you only read the bold and didn't read the rest of my post. What other top 5 WR will catch 21 passes, with the longest being 23, and your team only scores 16, and you lose? Name me one other WR where that is more likely than not. Marshall is a great WR, I'd take him on my team every day if he wasn't a head case. But he's doesn't break games wide open with a great day. When you need 15 passes to get him to 150 yards that's not ideal for me. Vincent Jackson makes 20 catches and he's close to 300 yards probably. The only time Brandon breaks one is where the defense just forgets where he's at, or someone misses really badly. You only get so many offensive plays a game. He had a decent YPC year finally his last year in Miami. But we got rid of him. Top 5? Guys I'd take over him: Calvin Gordon (without the suspension obviously) AJ Green Alshon Vincent Jackson Dez Bryant Antonio Brown Torrey Smith Desean Jackson D Thomas (I'd like to see him produce without Peyton though). Then there are guys I'd have to think long and hard about just because they haven't done it for long enough. Michael Floyd, Keenan Allen.
I don't agree with all of the moves, but I do know from years of managing staff myself that it sometimes takes a while to find the type of people you want if you're to have a robust and cohesive group, even moreso in the constraints of a system like professional football. I have inherited other people's headaches and bad hiring decisions in the past myself, so I understand why Philbin didn't want a certain type of player and don't fault him for that. I do fault him for not being as versatile with his players as someone like Shula was and for allowing Sherman too much control of the offense. As for replacing receivers, that is still a work in progress. I expect to see us draft a big playmaking receiver/redzone threat in the 1st round next draft. One without personality issues preferably. Regardless, at any position, you should always be looking for an upgrade whenever possible... Back on topic, like the coaching staff or not, getting Wallace mentally engaged and keeping him that way is vital to the offense and the season. Hoping Wallace has a vastly better 2nd season. Would love to see him put up better numbers than his second season in PB with Rothliesburger when he posted 10 TDs and 1200+ yards.
I read the whole post. I bolded the part that summed up what you said. I don't agree... You post one game's stats and dictate that as the summation of Brandon's career. It's not true. And I don't think DeSean Jackson, Antonio Brown, and Torrey Smith are even debatably on the same level as Brandon Marshall... Neither is Gordon, because he's an idiot and can't get on the field. If past behavior is any indicator of future behavior, who knows when we'll see him again. I'll leave it at that.
That one game epitomizes Marshall's ability. He is not a game breaker. He's still great. I consider game breakers someone who can score on any given play. Someone that can take a screen or a slant and take it home. Marshall isn't that. He's big, he's strong, but he isn't winning any foot races or breaking anyone's ankles. As for Desean/Brown/Smith yeah that's certainly your right to have opinions. I just think it's harder to find those guys than say, a possession receiver on steroids which is Brandon. Marshall doesn't even catch an inordinate amount of passes thrown his way, which is surprising because he's never that far from the LOS, so it takes a lot of targets to get his production. I do like having someone like him in the RZ though. BUt lets not forget he has a ton of drops every year. I'm taking Antonio Brown over him every single day. Desean too. Torrey ... less so perhaps.
Some ankle breakers for ya. [video=youtube;9q52pUl8vZM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q52pUl8vZM[/video]
strange in almost all those games with the Marshall highlight reel, Denver was losing and Miami was winning.
That's because your a wait and see kinda guy, which in terms of the NFL, will get you nowhere, your a fan, I get it, I'm obsessed with film study and projection, so if you think I'm the only one that would take Sammy Watkins over Brandon Marshall, I'd be willing to bet I'm not the only one your laughing at, bet ya the majority of GMs would agree with me. The game is risky..must be willing to risks to gain and pass, get it.. Who would trade Sammy Watkins strait up for Brandon Marshall? I sure as hell would, laugh all you want..how many times your boy made it to the playoffs?, he does nothing for offensive impact on the other players..he's an easy cover who catches the ball in short areas by body ing up his receiver, he's great at that..very slow football player..I'd say prolly in the low 4.6 range, maybe lower.
