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Legimate question for my Christian friends.

Discussion in 'Religion and Spirituality' started by Pagan, Apr 16, 2009.

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  1. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I hear you and understand but I would approach this point with caution. The key to understanding the Spirit speaking to you is the Holy Spirit and not an imposter is to check what the Spirit says against an authoratative standerd and for two millenia that has been the Bible.

    I am cautious about letting my free will have too free a hand in interpretation. I want an authoratative text and a community to rein me in because I know I can try and rationalize or justify my behavior if I try hard enough.
     
  2. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I know this are written with your toungue in your cheek but I want to use them to make a point.

    One is not saved by what one does, likewise a person is not condemned simply because of sin. That puts all the emphasis on us.

    We are made one in Christ through Baptism and thus die to sin and rise to newness of life. Because of that we are empowered by the Holy Spirit to live new lives but those lives While they should be sin free, will not be because even though we are saved we are still by nature sinners. It is an eternal struggle.
     
  3. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    so what determines whether or not one is going to hell?
     
  4. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    The way I describe it is that in Romans ch.1, Paul describes same sex activity as the prima facia example of the brokeness of God and the creation He made. It is for me the most important text pointing out the inherant sinfulness of same sex, sexual activity.
     
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  5. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    the "adultery" used in exodus 20:14 "thou shall not commit adultery"
    is the hebrew word na^'aph (naw-af') a prim. root; to cmmit adultery; fig. to apostatize:-- adulterer (-ess), commit (-ing) adultery, woman that breaketh wedlock.
     
  6. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Most people who visit the ladies lounge are as well (assuming you believe in hell).
     
  7. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    i agree. the way to discern what you're hearing is to test it with the written word of God, but i'm just saying that if all the bibles were destroyed the Holy Spirit would teach it to us, but it would be up to us to make sure it is the Holy Spirit talking to us. Satan is quick to throw out scripture and miss interpret it.
     
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  8. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    God does.

    The one New Testament story where someone is in Hell, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man is in hell presumtively because he was non responsive to the poor and needy at his door.

    Strangely enough, while scripture talks about hell (in differing ways depending on the books of the Bible you are reading), it pays no heed on how one ends up there only on how one enters into relationship with the Creator.

    It has been inferenced over time that if one does not follow the ways of being in that relationship then you are perforce going to Hell but strangely the Bible is largely silent about that. In fact the whole text goes out of its way to see to it that Hell is ultimately empty. Whether that happens or not is up to God.

    That is not to say God is either arbitrary or capricious. God is loving and desires all to be in relationship with Him. My reading of scripture is that God mourns those who ultimately reject Him and even sent Jesus to preach to some of them during the three days between Good Friday and Easter suggesting they may have had some kind of second chance.
     
  9. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    the answer is wheter or not you have a relationship with God and have confessed with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believed in your heart that God raised Him from the Dead (Rom 10:9-10)

    We all know this one: For God so loved the world that he gave His only Son, that whoever BELIEVES in him shall not parish , but have ever lasting life! (John 3:16)

    but what most people don't know is that the word BELIEVES in ths verse is the Greek word pisteuo meaning to have faith in, to entrust one's spiritual well being to Christ; to trust and obey.

    the problem is that the word BELIEVE to us, just means to believe something exists. The bible also uses the word that we know (believe) when it says James 2:19 (New International Version)
    19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

    But the word believe in John 3:16 doesn't mean to believe something exist, it means to trust and obey.
     
  10. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    i don't agree with the 2nd chance thing you're talking about. some people believe that but that's open to interpretation. i would use the same story you started out with to argue that there is no second chance after you die, unless you are raised from the dead. The story you started out with, explains that there's a chasm seperating heaven and hell and that it could not be crossed. in other words, once you're in hell, there's no coming out. the people in that story were begging abraham to give them a drop of water but it was explained that nothing could penetrate that chasm that kept people there.

    God gives us several chances to get saved while we're alive, once you die its too late my friend.
     
  11. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    Perhaps. I certainly don't want folks to depend on that later chance but...............

    It is possible both accounts are in play. The Petrine reference talks about the souls held captive from before the flood. It is possible that they are in some different category than the folks post Abraham though it is ultimately unknowable this side of eternity and would not effect people today in any case. It is, for me, a valuable example of how deep and far God's love runs that even those folks get to hear Jesus in some fashion.
     
  12. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    the bible speaks about eternal damnation, if what you're saying is true, why does the bible talk about eternal damnation?
     
  13. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    Dear anglp,

    These two quotes represent the orthodox edges of the answer to your question. There would be some far more liberal than me who would talk of universal salvation and others right of Ricky who would add more criteria based on their reading of scripture.

    A lot depends on how "believe" is understood. Is it a work or is belief itself a gift of the Holy Spirit? Both? Neither? Something completely different?

    One thing Ricky did not include in his excellent summary is the prepesition used with pisteuo, the Greek word for "believe". When someone believes something in the Bible they believe "in" just like in English EXCEPT when it references Jesus and then they beileve "into". The preposition trys to pick up what both of us are saying that belief is neither an intellectual assent to a position nor an independent work on our behalf that is required to add to the cross. It describes a merger, a dying to one life and being raised to a new life.
     
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  14. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    It also speaks about how not even death can seperate us from the love of God. Again, I think the Petrine reference is likely to be seen narrowly as refering only to those sould "held captive from before the flood".
     
  15. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    this is because God loves everyone in Hell. Doesn't mean they're gonna have a chance to get out. there's another verse that says something like where can i escape your prescence, if i go to the depths of hell, you are there. this is just talking about God's omniprescence. He's every where, this still doesn't mean we have a way out of Hell.

    I don't wish to get into an argument. I just don't want people to think they'll have a second chance then find out they don't. I'm sure we can both agree that its better to get saved on earth then take a chance that there might be a second chance while you're burning in hell.
     
  16. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I've seen 2 answers so far that explain adultery to mean a married woman having extramarital sex. I guess its not covered in the 10 commandments then.

    That would imply that God didn't see the "problem" coming, which would mean he isn't infallible...no?
     
  17. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    lol. you'll find out one day. every knee will bow down and say Jesus is Lord. You'll either do it here on earth or after you die. i suggest you do it here on earth.

    p.s. notice i said the word maybe before i made that statement.

    The bible doesn't say that i can't pee on someone's face, does that means its okay to do it and/or God didn't see that coming so he must be infallible? give me a break! LOL
     
  18. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I always proclaim God's love as if it were the last time some one would hear of it, so I suppose on that we are happily in agreement!
     
  19. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Hold the phone here. First of all, FTR, this forum is different than all the others. I haven't been condescending to you and would appreciate the same in return.

    We're not talking about simple wrong or right, we are talking about a sin. A sin so "bad" that many are willing to deny, protest and fight to keep from happening to this day. There are MANY sins mentioned in the old and new testaments that do not carry the same outrage this one does, or are even considered sins anymore.

    So, if it is such a major issue with your God, enough that it is ok for mortals to judge others by, then why wasn't it a Commandment? It is a very valid question.

    As far as the bold part goes, you didn't say maybe, so I'm not sure what you are trying to say, please explain.
     
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  20. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    i said maybe in the post you originally replied to. i said maybe that wasn't a problem at the time so God didn't address it until it was a problem, much like we do when someone does something wrong that our laws don't cover. or something to that affect.

    what's your deal with the 10 commandments? it sounds like you think the 10 commandments is more important than the rest of the bible. the 10 commandments is just part of the bible. plus we don't live by the law anymore. We don't have to offer a sin offering if we break a commandment b/c jesus became a sin offering for us. the law has turned into this, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul and love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus fulfilled the law for us b/c it was impossible for us to fulfill it. I don't get caught up with being legalistic and following all the do's and don'ts of the bible. i just try to have a relationship with God and eventually i'll end up doing the do's and don'ts of the bible b/c i'll love the things he loves and hate the things he hates.

    as far as the condescending thing goes, i believe you were being condescending to my God by saying he was infallable b/c he didn't see something coming. i was just taking up for him. not that He needs it.

    Homosexuality is a sin just like any other sin. Homosexual's are the ones making it an outrage b/c they don't want to accept that. In God's eyes, a sin is a sin. any sin could be the reason for someone going to hell if they don't have a relationship with God and live a life of repentance. Although sin is sin in God's eyes, there's a big difference in the amount of bondage certain sins will entangle someone.
     
  21. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Oh ok.

    So then why didn't God foresee it being it a problem then?

    I don't think I need to answer this question again. I made a very clear and concise point and question as to why I brought up the 10 Commandments.

    I didn't say he was. This was also clear and concise. I said if the premise that YOU are putting forward is accurate, then it would imply he is not infallible. Please read it again, to see what I meant.

    There is no difference between violating the 10 Commandments and committing any other sin? Why aren't there a 1000 Commandments then? Why can fat people get married?
     
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  22. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    the entire statement i made when i said maybe just came off the top of my head. there's no biblical reasoning for it as far as i know. therefore i won't discuss that.

    as far as fat people getting married, i see where you're going with this question. The bottom line is that gluttony is a sin, so is homosexuality. marriage is between a man and a woman.

    the only problem i have is people trying to make their own rules to christianity. if you're deliberately living in sin, you're not a christian. i don't care how many times someone says the sinner's prayer, you can't be saved if you're deliberately sinning. the homosexual christian (oxymoron) is no more saved than the alcoholic christian (oxymoron). a sinner can't have the best of both worlds. if someone is gonna be a christian, they've got to play by God's rules (the bible) not their own rules.

    Hebrews 10:26 "26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,but only an expectation of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."
     
  23. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    So, then you would agree, it is your God's job to decide and judge homosexuals and not yours or any other man's job?
     
  24. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    That explanation would not be the same for every Christian. I think you would better serve the faith to say that is your understanding of scripture. It would not be mine.

    God is ultimately the only judge.

    That said, it is a principle of the Christian faith to love one's neighbor. Sometimes the most loving thing to do is say someone is wrong or the actions of someone are harming themselves, either with their neighbors or with God.

    What is sometimes looked at as being judgemental by Christians is instead admonition to a better life as we understand it.
     
  25. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Thank you. However, when there's votes and protests, I think we can we consider that a little different than love. Besides, you never hear that homosexuals need to be saved from themselves, you always hear about the "homo agenda" or how they destroy someone else's marriage, etc. Its very personalized and selfish it seems.
     
  26. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    Sometimes love is harsh.

    That said, I think we can all agree that what we see in the public sphere is driven by mass media and that has a way of sensationalizing and marginilizing whether it has to do with this topic or another. Media also looks to extremes for voices and the voices heard on this rtopic arely resemble the Church folk I work with every day (or at least it doesn't quote them very well) nor the gay folk I have come to know both inside and outside the Church.

    It is much easier to set up straw men which demonize an opponent than to try and carefully listen to another's opinion and try to develop understanding. We have seen that throughout American politics in the past twenty years, should we be surprised to see it on the topic of homosexuality?

    Oh well back to my late worship service.
     
  27. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    I Corinthians 5:9-13
    5:9 I wrote you in my [previous] letter not to associate [closely and habitually] with unchaste (impure) people--

    5:10 Not [meaning of course that you must] altogether shun the immoral people of this world, or the greedy graspers and cheats {and} thieves or idolaters, since otherwise you would need to get out of the world {and} human society altogether!

    5:11 But now I write to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of [Christian] brother if he is known to be guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater [whose soul is devoted to any object that usurps the place of God], or is a person with a foul tongue [railing, abusing, reviling, slandering], or is a drunkard or a swindler {or} a robber. [No] you must not so much as eat with such a person.

    5:12 What [business] of mine is it {and} what right have I to judge outsiders? Is it not those inside [the church] upon whom you are to pass disciplinary judgment [passing censuring sentence on them as the facts require]?

    5:13 God alone sits in judgment on those who are outside. Drive out that wicked one from among you [expel him from your church].
     
  28. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    no one is without sin, but as a christian you can't go on knowing the bible says something is a sin and decide its not and keep partaking in that sin. The thing that seperates a christian sinning and a lost person sinning is that the christian realizes what sin is and ask for forgiveness and turns from that sin. Hebrews 10:26-27 is very clear.
     
  29. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    So, what were the context of these letters, who was the author, and how does this translate to homosexuals getting married in the eyes of the government?

    Further, you made a good point earlier, about how fat people and gays getting married aren't the same thing. After some thought I'm inclined to agree with you. However, I thought about it more though and realized that what would be EXACTLY the same thing, is forcing fat people to diet and exercise. Since the act of gays getting married is a sin and must be stopped, then the act of becoming fat is also a sin and should be attacked with the same vigor. Since you're for Christian doctrine to stop one segment of the population from sinning through secular legislation, then would also be for the same thing with a different part of the sinning population?
     
  30. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    At what point is someone considered a non-Christian?

    Take Ted Haggard. He didn't sin just once. When he first sinned, he knew then it was a sin. Was he not a Christian then? What about after that, once he kept sinning? Did he only become a Christian after he repented? How many times, specifically, does the Bible say a person may sin before they are no longer a Christian?
     
  31. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    the author was Paul and he was writting the letter to the church of Corinth. The church of Corinth was a new church that was started by Paul but ran by new christians. They had a lot of problems with sinful people trying to take over and do what ever they wanted.

    Paul's whole point was that we should not judge those outside the church (sinners) but we are suppose to judge those inside the church (believers). earlier you asked me if i agreed that God is the one that's suppose to judge. my answer to that is what the scripture says in the passage i posted. it depends on if we're talking about people inside the church or outside the church. Ultimately God is the judge specially if we're talking about someone's eternal well being. But as far as sin goes, we're not suppose to judge a non christian's sin, b/c they don't know any better b/c their lives haven't been transformed through Christ. But if we're talking about someone in the church, part of being a christian and being discipled is having someone disciple you and let you know if you're doing something wrong and help you through it.

    as far as attacking gluttony with the same vigor as homosexuality i don't believe in attacking anyone for their sin, b/c they'll never get saved. But i don't believe in legalizing sin b/c i don't want God to judge the nation. it rains on the just and the unjust.
     
  32. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    there's no clear answer to this question. Some believe you can't lose your salvation. I believe that you can. But i'm definitely not the judge on when that happens. i think the individual that loses his salvation knows when it happens. i believe its happen to me a couple of times. In my personal experience i believe it happened when i stopped caring and asking God to forgive me of my sin. There's was a point in my life where if someone asked me if i was a christian i would say no b/c i didn't want people to see how i was living and think all christians lived like that. I believe it happens when you give up on the war against the sinful nature.

    Romans 7:15-30 (New International Version)

    15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

    21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
    So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
     
  33. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I have tried to step back from this one but I just can't. RNI, I know where you are trying to go and what you are trying to say. I don't want to start an argument but I have asked you a couple times in this thread to preface your comments with something like "in my view of the Christian faith" or "according to my understanding" but instead your comments have become more and more dogmatic and absolute.

    And now Fin D has driven a semi through your point!

    My problem with this discussion has been from the beginning that sin has been equated with actions of commission or ommission typically around moral points. That is too narrow and in my opinion not adaquately explaining the length and breadth of the Biblical witness.

    There are a number of images for sin in the NT but the three major ones are debts, trespasses, and missing the mark. If you look at all three in toto to get a view of sin you get the sense we are in debt to God beyond our ability to repay and Jesus has to "redeem" us, that is buy us back. We are never out of that debt. Trespassing is going into places where we are prohibited. Some are often spoke of in the Bible like murder, greed, theft, etc. and others are much less frequently mentioned such as, for the sake of this thread, homosexual behavior (always the act, not the internal inclination). Missing the mark describes those times when we try and fall short of God's epitome of self-sacrificing love.

    We are never free from them. We are forgiven, led to a new life by the work of the Holy Spirit, (advocate, counselor, paraclete, etc) but never free from our nature.

    Sin is our nature. It is a struggle we will always fight with. Public sinning is particularly frowned on not just because it may lead a person to stop trusting God but also because it can bring disreput upon the faith for a non-Christain. If we look at sin as a condition, a cancer on our souls which is constantly being fought rather than a slate that is written on and periodically wiped clean I think we will have a fuller appreciation of the dimensions of sin in the NT. At least that is my reading.
     
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  34. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    The problem is that in my understanding it is not your job as a human being to bring judgement upon your species. It is the job of your God. Part of being human is the freedom to sin and make your own mistakes. Also realize that what is a sin according to your particular beliefs may not be to another. This is where my point comes in.

    While you may believe what you do, and have the right to do so, others do not. You're free to try and bring them into your beliefs and to lecture and persuade to your hearts content. However I do not believe that under ANY circumstances should you try and take away someones freedom to do something that is not directly harmful to you. A gay marriage is no more harmful to you than a regular gay couple.
     
  35. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    I totally disagree. Only b/c God judges entire nations b/c of sin. God's mercy has kept this from happening so far, then again if you consider all the earth quakes, tornadoes, droughts, and hurricanes, maybe not. But from reading the bible i know that God has done much worse than tornadoes and hurricanes as far as judging an entire nation b/c of sin. I believe that when we legalize sin we're pushing God closer and closer to bringing his wrath on us.

    I'm trying to keep this thread on topic but i want everyone to know i feel the same way about other legalized sin like abortion, alcohal, tobacco, ect...
     
  36. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    the Word of God is absolute. i take scripture for what it says. I have greek and hebrew study books so i know exactly what was meant when i read the bible after i do my due dilligence in studying it. i make it clear if i have an opinion and i don't have scripture to back it up.
     
  37. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    You don't know that. You may think you know that, but a belief is simply what the word implies. A belief. Besides I could never believe in a God who punishes many for the needs of the few. Even if I knew for fact that God existed I would never worship him, because that God is undeserving of any praise.

    Not that I don't think you should. As people I think we all need to follow what we believe and offer it to others, but never force.
     
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  38. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    LOL. you don't know that i don't know that.

    God has done plenty for us. He created the world you live in and mankind so that you could be born. Not to mention redeeming us by giving his Son's life for us. He can do what he wants, including punishing many for the sins of the few.

    You'll find out God is real one day.

    If you're wrong i just cease to exist. If i'm right heaven is the reward and hell is the punishment. i don't want to take the gamble that you're taking. specially since all i have to do to get to heaven is:

    Romans 10:9-10 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe (trust and obey) in your heart that God raised Him from the dead then you'll be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
     
  39. Pagan

    Pagan Metal & a Mustang

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    Don't mind me stepping in here, but yes...I DO know you don't know that. Unless God himself came down and told you that everything in the Bible is true, you are relying on faith. You do NOT know for sure. No one does.

    How arrogant of you. Your behavior is exactly why I created this thread. You're telling everyone else that they're wrong and only your God is the correct one.

    Okay, is this Dolphan7 using another name? This is the same LAME logic that he used to use on the old site.

    And again...how ARROGANT!

    By saying "If I'm wrong I just cease to exist," you are completely and totally ruling out the idea that ANY other God might exist but yours. How do you not know that if you're wrong, some OTHER God might kick YOUR *** the way you say yours will do to those who don't believe in him?

    Again, you are relying on faith. Unless of course, you had coffee with the Romans the other day. :wink2:
     
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  40. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    Mar 15, 2009
    Alabama
    i speak from experience. I've seen things in the bible happen in front of my face. For instance, the bible talks about demons and casting out demons in the name of Jesus, i've done this and i do it on a regular basis. you're the one that doesn't know God is real and his Word is true. I know it!
     
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