Making a Case for Ryan Tannehill

"djphinfan wrote:

Key..

What is the sense of keeping a qb unless you trust that he can go out on the road, in a hostile environment, in the playoffs, and win..

broken record here but he cannot feel, see, or deal with a compromised pocket..

When you are on the road the apex of pressure is going to inevitably be there, winning qbs will make an individual play on the road when the fans are screaming and the pocket collapses at critical times, which then flips the pressure onto the home team.That’s how you win big games on the road in hostile environments..

Tannehill does not possess these abilities and therefore it’s not a coincidence that we haven’t seen what I’m talking about in 7 years, hence being horrible on the road, hence being a horrible third down qb, hence not going to the playoffs or, winning those big games on the road.

When your on the road, it’s harder to play strict script football..

I would doing jumping Jacks if we could get a fourth round pick for him..that’s what backup QBs are going for.

Here's how I see it....and I'm using the perspective of fans like you, Resnor and others who were once very high on Tannehill-

When Gase came to Miami, we were all excited. He could fix RT's footwork in the pocket to get the most out of him. And that's mostly what we saw....after a 1-5 collapse, we were one of the better teams in the league until Tannehill went down.

In 2017, our excitement was over Tannehill returning healthy....it would finally be the year we could fully evaluate him and silence all the doubters. Yet he never made it out of pre-season and we suffered through the Cutler era. We heard that year on the bench helped Tannehill mature though and really see the bigger picture, so it was exciting going into 2018. No more excuses!

Only, down he goes again after starting 3-0 and having one God-awful game with the hurt shoulder. We once again saw what an average QB looked like in Osweiller, and Tannehill's return has been SOLID for the past month besides a single pick-6. Now, we haven't been aggressive with him at all and a lot's been held back as he got back into game-shape, but the kid has been the same dependable QB that you guys saw in 2015. Same problems too behind a patchwork line....but he's done pretty darn good under the circumstances considering our top two receivers are out of commission.

With all that said, how can you say you were wrong about 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018 when you never got a full season of Tannehill/Gase? Every great QB in the league has spent several years with their coach and built a chemistry with his favorite targets. Tannehill has none of that- Amendola and Stills are his only targets and they're both WR3's at best in this league. Stills working the middle of the field just doesn't work....which has been plainly obvious lately.

I personally think I need to see one full season with RT/Gase to pass judgement. If the linemen fall next season then so be it. If our top receivers get hurt then I'll live with it. But after 7 years of waiting, I think we deserve to see four solid months of game-planning and execution like you'd give any other coach/QB combo.

After all, how can you expect consistency when NOTHING has been consistent? I just don't see the logic on calling something broken before you give it a fair shake.

I'm just finding it a bit funny we are the people who say "Brady folds if you pressure him" and shit like that, but Tannehill is supposed to shake off 6 sacks, reverse field 7 times and throw a hail mary TD every play.

"AGuyNamedAlex wrote:

I'm just finding it a bit funny we are the people who say "Brady folds if you pressure him" and **** like that, but Tannehill is supposed to shake off 6 sacks, reverse field 7 times and throw a hail mary TD every play.

There is no doubt in my mind that I believe Gase and our OL have failed Tannehill. However, a lot of it he brings upon himself. The guy has practically zero pocket presence and can't see a blitz until it is in his face and by then it's too late.

I’m pretty much in line with keyfin.
In my lifetime I’ve seen inferior QBs than Tannehill win superbowls, Mark Rypien, Trent Dilfer, the 2015 version of Peyton Manning, and Jeff Hostetler for example. What did all of those guys have in common? The rest of the team performed at elite levels. You also have QBs like Eli Manning and Joe Flacco who I would consider to be generally inferior but have gone on wild hotstreaks during the playoffs while supported by a very good defense and run game.

For me that’s the kind of talent/support that Tannehill needs to win a SB. He won’t win a barnstormer when the defense doesn’t show up, he won’t extend plays like crazy with jailbreaks, he won’t read a broken route and throw to an uncovered receiver.

I firmly believe that in a disciplined environment, like NE, Tannehill would put up numbers that would be considered elite.

The problem is that
1) it’s a harder to find and keep an elite team than it is to find and keep an elite QB.
2) Coaching/FO in Miami are not condusive to a disciplined environment.

Wow.. I get off the plane and see this thread lol.

OK, first thing. KeyFin, you gotta make up your mind man! It's like every week (or less than that) you wobble from one position to another. Not long ago you said you were completely done with Gase and Tannehill, and since then you've wobbled back and forth lol. So I guess this thread is just what you think at the moment and not necessarily in a few days. Will be interesting to see what you think after Buffalo.

Anyway, as already stated many times before it's certainly possible to build a consistent winner around an average QB like Tannehill, but almost no recent SB winner has done that. Really, in the last 25 years only the 2000 Ravens, 2002 Bucs and 2015 Broncos won with a below average QB. Otherwise, the SB winning QB was either elite or played elite in the playoffs.

What does that tell us? That playing the odds implies we need to replace Tannehill if you want to win the SB irrespective of any other positive qualities he has. And in case it's lost on some people, that SB-winning QB stat says it's easier to find that prototypical SB winning QB than it is to build up the rest of the team to SB caliber. I've said this before but if we had only gambled every 3 years or so on finding that QB since Marino retired, we'd be set, contrary to where we're at right now.

Oh, and let's not entertain the idea that Tannehill is likely to play elite in the playoffs like Flacco or Foles did. This is the guy that has often crapped the bed in big games, like against the Jets and Bills in 2013 where all we needed to do was win one and we make the playoffs. Same thing (not as bad as 2013 though) happened against Minnesota and Jacksonville this year.

Sorry man, if you want to play the odds get rid of Tannehill. And if you want to play the odds, get rid of Gase too.

"The_Dark_Knight wrote:

Can you tell me ONE top 5 or even top 10 draft pick in Dolphins history that alone resulted in a Super Bowl championship?

I’ll even go one better and expand that to the entire NFL but be aware, you need to be able to articulate your opinion clearly as to why...

Unless this is a strawman question with the use of the phrase "alone resulting in a SB", I'd say the best example is Peyton Manning who was picked #1 in 1998 draft. I don't think any deep argument is required here. Indy doesn't turn into a consistent playoff team, nor would it likely have won a SB without Manning. Just imagine had they chosen the QB that was picked right after Manning: Ryan Leaf lol.

I'm looking forward to not having to discuss this QB any longer.

"adamprez2003 wrote:

I'm almost at the point that I want Gase and Tannehill go so they can succeed for a normal franchise. Lets go back to spending another decade searching for a QB that doesn't flat out suck. Can't wait for the next Joey harrington.

The dolphins have to be the only team in the history of the NFL who can go a decade without being able to build an average oline for more than a few games. We have had a poor below average oline for almost a decade now. That is mind boggling.

I'm starting to think that the reason our fans so easily dismiss this as a problem is because they forgot what a good line looks like.

If it's me I keep Tannehill until he has one season behind a line ranked 16th or better and one that lasts through the entire season not a couple of games. Or unless he gets injured again and I keep Gase around until he has one season where half our team isn't in a hospital

You know what's funny. The saints lost their lineman armstead week 11. Immediately the offense tanked for the next three weeks. The guy who replaced aemstead....jermon bushrod..... lol. That's how toxic Miami linemen are. Add just one to a new Orleans line and turn Brees into Keenum

"Fin-O wrote:

I'm looking forward to not having to discuss this QB any longer.

For a few it seems they will take the stance that it’s not about him, he’ll be successful once he leaves..

"djphinfan wrote:

For a few it seems they will take the stance that it’s not about him, he’ll be successful once he leaves..

If he goes to the right system then sure.

I won't say he will ever be a top level QB, but he can be serviceable with a handful of solid NFL coaches.....also something he has never had.

Dude may retire for all we know, it's no secret he has a passion for the medical field and I have no doubts he has been smart with his money.

"Dolphins1372 wrote:

I look forward to bragging about my qb.

What would you be bragging about?

I think we should keep Tannehill next year and I'm ready to draft a replacement. I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive. We may end up with a worse quarterback, but Ryan is 7 years in and we'll never be a dangerous offense with him. There's too many examples of younger QBs having success in the league to continue investing in Ryan. Time to start playing the lotto and see if we can hit on a QB that'll turn the prospects of the franchise around.

"Surfs Up 99 wrote:

There is no doubt in my mind that I believe Gase and our OL have failed Tannehill. However, a lot of it he brings upon himself. The guy has practically zero pocket presence and can't see a blitz until it is in his face and by then it's too late.

The thing is, I don't really believe this though I usually do agree with you.

I've seen Ryan avoid pressure a lot in his career. People talk about a QB feeling the pocket but there is no 6th sense. It's all about anticipating where the pressure will be based on your weaknesses, the play, and the defense.

Its not possible to anticipate pressure that comes from all angles. I believe PFF only put 1 of 9 sacks on Tannehill against Minny for example.

When there are free rushers you're just going to lose that play 9 of 10 times regardless of QB.

"AGuyNamedAlex wrote:

The thing is, I don't really believe this though I usually do agree with you.

I've seen Ryan avoid pressure a lot in his career. People talk about a QB feeling the pocket but there is no 6th sense. It's all about anticipating where the pressure will be based on your weaknesses, the play, and the defense.

Its not possible to anticipate pressure that comes from all angles. I believe PFF only put 1 of 9 sacks on Tannehill against Minny for example.

When there are free rushers you're just going to lose that play 9 of 10 times regardless of QB.

I remember reviewing the tape of 2013 or whenever it was Tanny got hit for 60 or so sacks, which is when the “Tanny has bad pocket presence” became an entrenched belief. What I couldn’t believe was the number of times unblocked rushers had a direct line to him. It’s something that we’ve improved on as a team, but I still see Tanny suffering from unblocked rushers coming straigt at him far more than is acceptable. This year you loom at how a supposedly professional OL refuses to pick up stunts.

I’ll never argue RT has good pocket presence, just that breakdowns in protection allowing unblocked rushers should not count as “poor pocket presence”.

"Pauly wrote:

I remember reviewing the tape of 2013 or whenever it was Tanny got hit for 60 or so sacks, which is when the “Tanny has bad pocket presence” became an entrenched belief. What I couldn’t believe was the number of times unblocked rushers had a direct line to him. It’s something that we’ve improved on as a team, but I still see Tanny suffering from unblocked rushers coming straigt at him far more than is acceptable. This year you loom at how a supposedly professional OL refuses to pick up stunts.

I’ll never argue RT has good pocket presence, just that breakdowns in protection allowing unblocked rushers should not count as “poor pocket presence”.

Same. I'd never argue Tanny is elite in the pocket or otherwise. I'd just argue he's on the same level as guys like Flacco, Stafford, and so forth I keep seeing thrown around as replacements.

Edit: Also want to add I think if Tanny had gone in the 2nd round we'd be talking about what a steal and how to protect him. Something about the first round makes people go into elite or nothing mode.

Im not against finding a better QB I just think it's dumb to regress for the sake of change.

"cbrad wrote:

Wow.. I get off the plane and see this thread lol.

OK, first thing. KeyFin, you gotta make up your mind man! It's like every week (or less than that) you wobble from one position to another. Not long ago you said you were completely done with Gase and Tannehill, and since then you've wobbled back and forth lol. So I guess this thread is just what you think at the moment and not necessarily in a few days. Will be interesting to see what you think after Buffalo.

Anyway, as already stated many times before it's certainly possible to build a consistent winner around an average QB like Tannehill, but almost no recent SB winner has done that. Really, in the last 25 years only the 2000 Ravens, 2002 Bucs and 2015 Broncos won with a below average QB. Otherwise, the SB winning QB was either elite or played elite in the playoffs.

What does that tell us? That playing the odds implies we need to replace Tannehill if you want to win the SB irrespective of any other positive qualities he has. And in case it's lost on some people, that SB-winning QB stat says it's easier to find that prototypical SB winning QB than it is to build up the rest of the team to SB caliber. I've said this before but if we had only gambled every 3 years or so on finding that QB since Marino retired, we'd be set, contrary to where we're at right now.

Oh, and let's not entertain the idea that Tannehill is likely to play elite in the playoffs like Flacco or Foles did. This is the guy that has often crapped the bed in big games, like against the Jets and Bills in 2013 where all we needed to do was win one and we make the playoffs. Same thing (not as bad as 2013 though) happened against Minnesota and Jacksonville this year.

Sorry man, if you want to play the odds get rid of Tannehill. And if you want to play the odds, get rid of Gase too.

As I said at the start of the post, I think it's probably time to part ways with RT. I just argued the opposite viewpoint because nobody else was and I have a feeling that he's going to be back either way.

However, I do 100% believe that Tannehill will be NE's next quarterback and he will be successful there. That's my only real fear.

"KeyFin wrote:

As I said at the start of the post, I think it's probably time to part ways with RT. I just argued the opposite viewpoint because nobody else was and I have a feeling that he's going to be back either way.

However, I do 100% believe that Tannehill will be NE's next quarterback and he will be successful there. That's my only real fear.

Yeah, it would totally suck if Tannehill went to NE. I have to give them credit, for the most part their OL can protect Brady and give him time to throw. Must of us agree that Tannehill would thrive if we could do that. Why is it that they can find decent linemen, and we struggle year after year? Their OL coach Dante Scarnecchia must be a miracle worker. I am sure they have had their fair share of injuries and they hardly miss beat. We lose a key guy and everything falls to shit (guys getting beat, missed assignments, etc.).

Change for the sake of change is just change. No better. No worse.

"Pauly wrote:

I remember reviewing the tape of 2013 or whenever it was Tanny got hit for 60 or so sacks, which is when the “Tanny has bad pocket presence” became an entrenched belief. What I couldn’t believe was the number of times unblocked rushers had a direct line to him. It’s something that we’ve improved on as a team, but I still see Tanny suffering from unblocked rushers coming straigt at him far more than is acceptable. This year you loom at how a supposedly professional OL refuses to pick up stunts.

I’ll never argue RT has good pocket presence, just that breakdowns in protection allowing unblocked rushers should not count as “poor pocket presence”.

In addition, our line is so bad that even when there aren't free rushers our linemen get beat so bad that there's instant pressure anyway. There's now way for Tannehill to predict which of his terrible linemen will whiff a block on each play.

"Fame wrote:

Change for the sake of change is just change. No better. No worse.

You don't know that. If you don't change, you're likely to end up .. "no better, no worse". If you do change (for whatever reason) there's a much higher probability you end up better OR worse.

And unless you want the team to hover around 8 (+-2) wins in perpetuity, we need change! Gotta gamble here, on coach and QB.

"KeyFin wrote:

However, I do 100% believe that Tannehill will be NE's next quarterback and he will be successful there. That's my only real fear.

I wouldn't worry about it. Tannehill isn't Brady. Sure he's accurate and can make the throws, but he does NOT have Brady's football intelligence. Most importantly Tannehill processes information MUCH slower than Brady. You're not going to see the elite game management with Tannehill. I predict NE would average 9-10 wins (expected for them given an average QB) rather than the 12 with Brady. 9-10 wins might be enough to get them into the playoffs but they're not getting a 1st round bye and thus no SB.

Besides Belichick is getting up there in age too. At 66 he's older than most coaches have been in the NFL so I'm fully expecting both Belichick and Brady to retire in the next 2 years. And without Belichick our path to the division title is MUCH easier.

Wow 99 QBR that's really impressive but let's dive a bit deeper. Lets compare Tannehill to a rookie QB, a teammate and a relative equal.

Below are 3rd down stats for the 2018 season.

Ryan Tannehill--65 3rd down attempts--18 1st downs= 27.7 1st down %--72.9 QBR--5.9 y/a
Marcus Mariota--97 3rd down attempts--45 1st downs=46.4 1st down %--93.8 QBR--7.4 y/a
Baker Mayfield--118 3rd down attempts--46 1st downs= 38.9 1st down %--99.1QBR--7.9 y/a
Brock Osweiler--54 3rd down attempts--23 1st downs= 42.6 1st down %--110.8 QBR--8.7 y/a

Bonus just to emphasize that a rookie QB on a bad team like the bills converted a higher 3rd down % than our very own Tannehill.

Josh Allen--86 3rd down attempts--27 1st downs= 31.4 1st down %--39.2 QBR--5.0 y/a

Fun fact Tannehills 5.9 y/a on 3rd downs is 32nd in the NFL. When you consistently throw it short on 3rd downs it tends to make it difficult to convert those 3rd downs. Also fun fact Tannehill has a 112.8 on 2nd down which is 4th best in the NFL while his 7.9 y/a on 2nd down is 10th best.

4th QTR

Tannehill--33 of 57 57.9%, 443 yds, 7.8 y/a 4 TD 4 INT, 76.9 QBR, 11 sacks
Osweiler--33 of 46 71.7%, 414 yds, 9.0 y/a, 4 TD 0 INT, 128.4 QBR, 5 sacks
Mayfield--80 of 121 66.1%, 936 yds, 7.7 y/a, 6 TD 3 INT, 95.6 QBR, 2 sacks
Mariota--44 of 66 66.7%, 498 yds, 7.5 y/a, 3 TD 9 INT, 104.2 QBR, 10 sacks

Fun fact Tannehill's 76.9 QBR in the 4th QTR is 32nd in the NFL. While his 2nd QTR QBR which is 135.0 is 1st in the NFL. Tannehill imo is the most inconsistent QB in the NFL. Not just game to game but QTR to QTR, down to down, throw to throw. How does a QB have a 58.1 drop in qb rating from the 2nd to the 4th qtr? That's ludicrous! In conclusion Tannehill will never be chill in the 4th qtr, on 3rd downs, in Buffalo and in important games. Time to move on.

"mooseguts wrote:

Wow 99 QBR that's really impressive but let's dive a bit deeper. Lets compare Tannehill to a rookie QB, a teammate and a relative equal.

Below are 3rd down stats for the 2018 season.

Ryan Tannehill--65 3rd down attempts--18 1st downs= 27.7 1st down %--72.9 QBR--5.9 y/a
Marcus Mariota--97 3rd down attempts--45 1st downs=46.4 1st down %--93.8 QBR--7.4 y/a
Baker Mayfield--118 3rd down attempts--46 1st downs= 38.9 1st down %--99.1QBR--7.9 y/a
Brock Osweiler--54 3rd down attempts--23 1st downs= 42.6 1st down %--110.8 QBR--8.7 y/a

Bonus just to emphasize that a rookie QB on a bad team like the bills converted a higher 3rd down % than our very own Tannehill.

Josh Allen--86 3rd down attempts--27 1st downs= 31.4 1st down %--39.2 QBR--5.0 y/a

Fun fact Tannehills 5.9 y/a on 3rd downs is 32nd in the NFL. When you consistently throw it short on 3rd downs it tends to make it difficult to convert those 3rd downs. Also fun fact Tannehill has a 112.8 on 2nd down which is 4th best in the NFL while his 7.9 y/a on 2nd down is 10th best.

4th QTR

Tannehill--33 of 57 57.9%, 443 yds, 7.8 y/a 4 TD 4 INT, 76.9 QBR, 11 sacks
Osweiler--33 of 46 71.7%, 414 yds, 9.0 y/a, 4 TD 0 INT, 128.4 QBR, 5 sacks
Mayfield--80 of 121 66.1%, 936 yds, 7.7 y/a, 6 TD 3 INT, 95.6 QBR, 2 sacks
Mariota--44 of 66 66.7%, 498 yds, 7.5 y/a, 3 TD 9 INT, 104.2 QBR, 10 sacks

Fun fact Tannehill's 76.9 QBR in the 4th QTR is 32nd in the NFL. While his 2nd QTR QBR which is 135.0 is 1st in the NFL. Tannehill imo is the most inconsistent QB in the NFL. Not just game to game but QTR to QTR, down to down, throw to throw. How does a QB have a 58.1 drop in qb rating from the 2nd to the 4th qtr? That's ludicrous! In conclusion Tannehill will never be chill in the 4th qtr, on 3rd downs, in Buffalo and in important games. Time to move on.

Hard to excuse his overall play in key situations no matter who the coach is.

That being said, I’d rather fire Gase, draft a QB, keep Ryan for a year and hope that guy takes over the reigns in 2020

"mooseguts wrote:

Wow 99 QBR that's really impressive but let's dive a bit deeper. Lets compare Tannehill to a rookie QB, a teammate and a relative equal.

Below are 3rd down stats for the 2018 season.

Ryan Tannehill--65 3rd down attempts--18 1st downs= 27.7 1st down %--72.9 QBR--5.9 y/a
Marcus Mariota--97 3rd down attempts--45 1st downs=46.4 1st down %--93.8 QBR--7.4 y/a
Baker Mayfield--118 3rd down attempts--46 1st downs= 38.9 1st down %--99.1QBR--7.9 y/a
Brock Osweiler--54 3rd down attempts--23 1st downs= 42.6 1st down %--110.8 QBR--8.7 y/a

Bonus just to emphasize that a rookie QB on a bad team like the bills converted a higher 3rd down % than our very own Tannehill.

Josh Allen--86 3rd down attempts--27 1st downs= 31.4 1st down %--39.2 QBR--5.0 y/a

Fun fact Tannehills 5.9 y/a on 3rd downs is 32nd in the NFL. When you consistently throw it short on 3rd downs it tends to make it difficult to convert those 3rd downs. Also fun fact Tannehill has a 112.8 on 2nd down which is 4th best in the NFL while his 7.9 y/a on 2nd down is 10th best.

4th QTR

Tannehill--33 of 57 57.9%, 443 yds, 7.8 y/a 4 TD 4 INT, 76.9 QBR, 11 sacks
Osweiler--33 of 46 71.7%, 414 yds, 9.0 y/a, 4 TD 0 INT, 128.4 QBR, 5 sacks
Mayfield--80 of 121 66.1%, 936 yds, 7.7 y/a, 6 TD 3 INT, 95.6 QBR, 2 sacks
Mariota--44 of 66 66.7%, 498 yds, 7.5 y/a, 3 TD 9 INT, 104.2 QBR, 10 sacks

Fun fact Tannehill's 76.9 QBR in the 4th QTR is 32nd in the NFL. While his 2nd QTR QBR which is 135.0 is 1st in the NFL. Tannehill imo is the most inconsistent QB in the NFL. Not just game to game but QTR to QTR, down to down, throw to throw. How does a QB have a 58.1 drop in qb rating from the 2nd to the 4th qtr? That's ludicrous! In conclusion Tannehill will never be chill in the 4th qtr, on 3rd downs, in Buffalo and in important games. Time to move on.

When a person cherry picks stats they get silly things like Brock Osweiler being a better QB than Mayfield, Mariota, and Tannehill. I mean, you proved that looking at JUST 3rd down attempts is pretty much pointless if you have Brock with a 110 passer rating (I write passer rating because I'm assuming that with the numbers you've shown they are not QBR?) and leading the pack. Sad

To top it off you ignored Allen's passer rating and decided that because the % was better Rosen somehow played better on 3rd downs with a 39 passer rating. So you're moving the goalposts against yourself in the same post. Sad

When you're consistently at 3rd and 20 because of false starts, holding, etc it's hard to throw it long. It surprises me how many people can't figure that out.

You also didn't factor in actual game context in other places. For example, when the Dolphins are behind by 8 or less points RT has a 126 passer rating. When he's behind OVERALL he has a 100 passer rating.

Oh look, I can do the same thing:

When Mariota is behind by 8 or less he has a 67 passer rating. RT is a better QB

When Mahomes is behind by 8 or less he has a 120 passer rating. RT is a better QB

When Drew Brees is behind by 8 or less he has an 88 passer raring. RT is a better QB

Work on your stats....Sad

"cbrad wrote:

Unless this is a strawman question with the use of the phrase "alone resulting in a SB", I'd say the best example is Peyton Manning who was picked #1 in 1998 draft. I don't think any deep argument is required here. Indy doesn't turn into a consistent playoff team, nor would it likely have won a SB without Manning. Just imagine had they chosen the QB that was picked right after Manning: Ryan Leaf lol.

Peyton Manning was indeed a beast but where would Manning be without Dungy? Or for that matter the running game he had with Marshall Faulk and without Harrison to throw the ball to...or the anchor of that offensive line in Jeff Saturday...do you see where I’m going with this?

Peyton Manning ALONE was not the end all be all draft pick that brought a championship to Indianapolis. He was the final piece of a puzzle that consisted of many players that made Indy’s offense great.

Some of you put way too much stock on high draft picks, especially at the quarterback position.

"The_Dark_Knight wrote:

Peyton Manning was indeed a beast but where would Manning be without Dungy? Or for that matter the running game he had with Marshall Faulk and without Harrison to throw the ball to...or the anchor of that offensive line in Jeff Saturday...do you see where I’m going with this?

Peyton Manning ALONE was not the end all be all draft pick that brought a championship to Indianapolis. He was the final piece of a puzzle that consisted of many players that made Indy’s offense great.

Some of you put way too much stock on high draft picks, especially at the quarterback position.

I agree that it takes a team to win a Super Bowl...Or else Manning would have 10 rings.

However, he was most certainly a bigger piece to that puzzle and without him I doubt they have half the success they had. I can't think of any other QB, (maybe Rodgers?), that could have carried those Colts the way Manning did. But that's why Manning should be in consideration for the GOAT.