Mariota > Winston..

"djphinfan wrote:

Why try to conform this prospect, you don't have to sit in the pocket to win in this league anymore, even though I believe this kid is as effective with his arm as he is with his legs, if you draft this kid you set him up in his style of offense that captiolizes on every once of this amazingly talented player.

He's twice the prospect Bortles is, better prospect then cam newton, much better passer then newton, has every bit the talent from the waists below, more speed..

He was 19 years old last year..lol, and he tore college football up..he's now put on 10 more lbs of muscle, gained some speed,and is looking to do whatever's necessary to Perfect the craft, his precision in all movement on the field truly blows me away.

Easy breasy blue chip prospect..

I like Marcus as much as anyone here, but that is definitely not a fact, that is merely an opinion.

"djphinfan wrote:

Not all qbs respond to pressure like David Carr, some thrive on it, some it brings out the best in their skillset..noone said he has to be rushed in to stop, but you can rest assured if I need a Qb, and Mariota is on the board in the first, no matter where it is, the prospect is elite, you make the pick.

This is an elite Qb prospect at 20 years old..all the better..

Whenever a team drafts a QB in the top 10 there seems to be more pressure and or inclination to get them into the starting lineup sooner rather than later. How well MM would respond to a situation similar to what Carr faced is anybody's guess. You can say he'd handle it better but that is just speculation. I am glad MM decided to get another year of seasoning and development at the college level and IMO in the long run he will be better off for having done so. If he did get drafted by a team smart enough to let him be the #2 and hold a clipboard for a year or two, there is no way I believe that would be better for him than starting at Oregon. Look at what the best QBs of the past 15 yrs do. Peyton and Luck for example, they maximize the amount of time they spend developing at the college level. Not getting into some all fired hurry to declare for the NFL asap.

"MrClean wrote:

I like Marcus as much as anyone here, but that is definitely not a fact, that is merely an opinion.

I thought it was clear is was my opinion, I didn't say fact.

"MrClean wrote:

Whenever a team drafts a QB in the top 10 there seems to be more pressure and or inclination to get them into the starting lineup sooner rather than later. How well MM would respond to a situation similar to what Carr faced is anybody's guess. You can say he'd handle it better but that is just speculation. I am glad MM decided to get another year of seasoning and development at the college level and IMO in the long run he will be better off for having done so. If he did get drafted by a team smart enough to let him be the #2 and hold a clipboard for a year or two, there is no way I believe that would be better for him than starting at Oregon. Look at what the best QBs of the past 15 yrs do. Peyton and Luck for example, they maximize the amount of time they spend developing at the college level. Not getting into some all fired hurry to declare for the NFL asap.

I'm fine with him going back another year, good for him, doesn't change my stance where he would of gone if he were in this draft.

I assume you don't have Manziel rated very high then...

"ILDolPhan wrote:

I assume you don't have Manziel rated very high then...

not following you?

It's not that I disagree with heading this direction. It's pretty clear the NFL is phasing out some of the pocket passers that could survive and thrive in yesteryear. You've still got guys that can win and be incredible players that way but those guys are sort of grandfathered in because they've been playing the game so long their depth of understanding and the thorough understanding the coaches have of them makes up for the shortfall in ability to make defenders miss. New players that play the game that way are finding the barriers to entry too hard to overcome.

But I think when change is happening and people recognize that, the quick shift in priorities can lead people to marginalize issues that are still of critical import, or to make other issues more important than they actually are.

Mariota's future may be to develop into the kind of passer that survives and thrives in the NFL. But right now, as of 2013 anyway, he was not that.

The pro style offense is being phased out because teams have finally, finally figured out that for a successful transition of college QB to the NFL, a team must let that QB do what he did successfully in college, rather than changing that QB to fit the OC's scheme.

"djphinfan wrote:

not following you?

I was referring to the below post.

Originally Posted by KB21
When I see Mariota sit in the pocket and pick a team a part with his arm and not his legs, I will rate him high.

"ckparrothead wrote:

It's not that I disagree with heading this direction. It's pretty clear the NFL is phasing out some of the pocket passers that could survive and thrive in yesteryear. You've still got guys that can win and be incredible players that way but those guys are sort of grandfathered in because they've been playing the game so long their depth of understanding and the thorough understanding the coaches have of them makes up for the shortfall in ability to make defenders miss. New players that play the game that way are finding the barriers to entry too hard to overcome.

But I think when change is happening and people recognize that, the quick shift in priorities can lead people to marginalize issues that are still of critical import, or to make other issues more important than they actually are.

Mariota's future may be to develop into the kind of passer that survives and thrives in the NFL. But right now, as of 2013 anyway, he was not that.

While that may be true, that he wouldn't of quite been ready to excel on the pro level at 20 years old, my point is he played outstanding in his Sophmore year, which was easy to project after his freshman year, and if he did come out after last year, I don't believe any GM let alone 32 would of passed in this dudes talent twice making him a third round pick..

Your evaluation is baffling to me, I might be wrong, but I believe he would of went top 3 this year, and will do the same this year..

Last year I stated there was just something up with Winstons personality I don't trust, I questioned when most were drooling..and was right to do so.

"djphinfan wrote:

Last year I stated there was just something up with Winstons personality I don't trust, I questioned when most were drooling..and was right to do so.

He is certainly showing very questionable off field traits that make his judgement and personality very suspect. Will be interesting to see how the other QBs step up this year though.

Crab legs will never amount to much in the nfl!

SENT FROM MY LG G-FLEX ON SPRINT........LIFE IS GOOD

Right now there's not a single quarterback that is guaranteed to go Top 15 from next year's prospects, at least from my point of view... someone will surprise though and be that guy but it likely isn't any of the top 5 prospects people are talking about.. unless they make a huge jump in all facets of their skill...

"Vertical Limit wrote:

Right now there's not a single quarterback that is guaranteed to go Top 15 from next year's prospects, at least from my point of view... someone will surprise though and be that guy but it likely isn't any of the top 5 prospects people are talking about.. unless they make a huge jump in all facets of their skill...

wanna bet?

It'll be interesting to see if Jameis Winston comes out next year anyway despite his protests that he won't. It wouldn't shock anyone to see him change his mind. All eyes will be on he, Brett Hundley and Marcus Mariota.

But I think it's just foolish to make claims about where Mariota would've gone this year.

"His strengths are leadership, size, athletic ability. He can run, he's a dual threat, he's strong-armed," one scout said. "His weakness is the accuracy part. That's got to be studied. He's a great kid and all, but can he read the defense?"

That tells me the scouting process with Mariota never got beyond the inch-deep analysis. They see that he's big enough, that he's definitely fast, he's very productive, and throws a good ball. But that's pretty much all they know because they've not even begun to analyze the tape and find out if he throws the ball accurately or if he reads defenses. You can't make claims about a guy going #1 overall or top 3 overall or something like that if you haven't even begun to digest that stuff.

Particularly what I always wondered about Mariota is whether he's really all he's cracked up to be under pressure. He's going to play another year and that gives him time to improve but for all this guy being a great athlete and having quick feet and everything, he's really quite average (or worse) when pressured in the pocket.

Sometimes he makes good plays when pressured. Most times he doesn't. Sometimes he makes really bad plays.

Just look at the Washington State game. A lot of people are going to be dazzled by the overall production in the game, 23 of 32 for 317 yards, 2 TDs and 0 INTs with a big TD run on top of it.

But a lot of that production was definitely college stuff that doesn't translate well to the pros, even if you're watching Nick Foles run similar style offense in Philadelphia. The thing that impresses you when you watch Foles run the Kelly offense at the pro level is how much pocket presence Foles has and the ability to sense the rush and do something about it. If you're going to run that style of offense with Mariota I think it's fair to say he's going to need to do the same.

But when defenses like Washington State and Stanford actually collapsed the pocket and got to him, they sacked him 6 times in the two games and he fumbled the football on 4 of those 6 sacks. He also fumbled the football against Arizona in that loss. He fumbled the ball twice in the bowl game against Texas when he faced productive pass rushers Cedric Reed and Jackson Jeffcoat. He fumbled the football when Anthony Barr sacked him in the UCLA game too.

A lot of people would look at the fumbles and focus on them as the problem and indeed they are a big concern, but I think it goes deeper than that. It's the fumbles relative to the overall pressure he faced in the pocket at Oregon. He didn't face a ton of pressure. He mostly had clean pockets and plenty of time to execute the quick throws they favored. But when he didn't have those thing it's always sack-fumble, sack-fumble, sack-fumble, sack-fumble, sack-fumble.

He's actually right now pretty similar to how Blaine Gabbert was when he came out of Missouri. Both have the pure tools to potentially be good at dealing with pressure. But both show bad tendencies. Blaine Gabbert used to scramble away from ghosts and you see a lot of that with Marcus Mariota as well.

Now that I'm looking closer, I'm having trouble finding games where he DIDN'T fumble the football at least once.

Tennessee - Fumbled on a 5 yard loss
Arizona - Fumbled on a 1 yard run
Oregon State - Fumbled on a 3 yard loss
Washington State - Two sack-fumbles
UCLA - Two fumbles, one a sack-fumble
Stanford - Two sack-fumbles
Texas - Two sack-fumbles

I've got 11 of them so far.

And the way he runs from ghosts in the pocket is eerily reminiscent of Blaine Gabbert. Luckily he's young and there's plenty chance for him to improve.

"Vertical Limit wrote:

Right now there's not a single quarterback that is guaranteed to go Top 15 from next year's prospects, at least from my point of view... someone will surprise though and be that guy but it likely isn't any of the top 5 prospects people are talking about.. unless they make a huge jump in all facets of their skill...

Quarterbacks are always guaranteed to go top 15 in the draft, even if they are not any good

"Coach wrote:

Quarterbacks are always guaranteed to go top 15 in the draft, even if they are not any good

The 2007 NFL Draft disagrees with you.

Bryce Petty will sneak in and be the #1 pick in 2015. This is my bold prediction. Last season, over 4400 yards of offense (passing and rushing), 46 tds, and only 3 ints. I expect his numbers to be even better this upcoming season, which is scary.

When i look at QBs, i like to always find how they did when their team was either tied or losing by 7 points. Shows me how he handles adversity.
Last season in those situations, Petty completed 60% of his passes for 1549 yds, 14 tds and 0 ints, 166.36 qb rating.
By comparison, Winston completed 80% of his passes for 916 yds, 8 tds and 1 int, 205.20 qb rating.
And, Mariota completed 60% of his passes for 791 yds, 6 tds and 1 int, 150.82 qb rating.

Before i found out how dumb Winston is, I would have called him the best QB for sure. I think he's a hell of a locker room leader and i like his cockiness. Plus, his stats are off the charts. But, I can't trust this guy. Too many red flags for me (and it takes a lot for me).

So, now it comes down to Petty and Mariota (I take Hundley out because i have never seen him). Mariota has nice stats, but i just see a great athlete. I don't see a leader. He admitted in USA Today,

"I'm kind of shy by nature, kind of quiet," Mariota said. "Some of those things I've gotta kind of remind myself like, 'Hey, you've gotta speak up.."

I don't like shy/quiet QBs...I need someone who can be a leader of men. He has that Teddy Bridgewater personality, which is why i think Teddy will fail in the NFL.

Bryce Petty plays with fire and has the stats to back it up. I watch Baylor games and I've seen this guy on the sideline getting after his teammates. I love it. I think NFL teams will start taking more notice too.

"phinswolverinesrockets wrote:

Bryce Petty will sneak in and be the #1 pick in 2015. This is my bold prediction. Last season, over 4400 yards of offense (passing and rushing), 46 tds, and only 3 ints. I expect his numbers to be even better this upcoming season, which is scary.

When i look at QBs, i like to always find how they did when their team was either tied or losing by 7 points. Shows me how he handles adversity.
Last season in those situations, Petty completed 60% of his passes for 1549 yds, 14 tds and 0 ints, 166.36 qb rating.
By comparison, Winston completed 80% of his passes for 916 yds, 8 tds and 1 int, 205.20 qb rating.
And, Mariota completed 60% of his passes for 791 yds, 6 tds and 1 int, 150.82 qb rating.

Before i found out how dumb Winston is, I would have called him the best QB for sure. I think he's a hell of a locker room leader and i like his cockiness. Plus, his stats are off the charts. But, I can't trust this guy. Too many red flags for me (and it takes a lot for me).

So, now it comes down to Petty and Mariota (I take Hundley out because i have never seen him). Mariota has nice stats, but i just see a great athlete. I don't see a leader. He admitted in USA Today, I don't like shy/quiet QBs...I need someone who can be a leader of men. He has that Teddy Bridgewater personality, which is why i think Teddy will fail in the NFL.

Bryce Petty plays with fire and has the stats to back it up. I watch Baylor games and I've seen this guy on the sideline getting after his teammates. I love it. I think NFL teams will start taking more notice too.

Hundley is a very nice prospect.

"ckparrothead wrote:

It'll be interesting to see if Jameis Winston comes out next year anyway despite his protests that he won't. It wouldn't shock anyone to see him change his mind. All eyes will be on he, Brett Hundley and Marcus Mariota.

But I think it's just foolish to make claims about where Mariota would've gone this year.

That tells me the scouting process with Mariota never got beyond the inch-deep analysis. They see that he's big enough, that he's definitely fast, he's very productive, and throws a good ball. But that's pretty much all they know because they've not even begun to analyze the tape and find out if he throws the ball accurately or if he reads defenses. You can't make claims about a guy going #1 overall or top 3 overall or something like that if you haven't even begun to digest that stuff.

How sure of a thing is Mariota? The Houston Texans may have made him the first pick if he were available, according to an NFL official familiar with the team's thinking. That doesn't faze Mariota, who followed the path of Andrew Luck to stay in school for a fourth year over potentially being the No. 1 pick.

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20140508/inside-read-marcus-mariota-myles-jack/#ixzz33bK59ecv

Said another NFL scout of Mariota: "I'd take him over Manziel. He's more accurate. He's bigger and I think he's faster, not as elusive, but more durable. A lot of upside there."


Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20140508/inside-read-marcus-mariota-myles-jack/#ixzz33bKn66sx

he suffered a partially torn MCL in his left knee against UCLA in late October -- for the slide. It significantly limited his mobility against the Cardinal and required him to wear a bulky knee brace, which he finally shed for Oregon's 30-7 blowout of Texas in the Alamo Bowl.

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20140508/inside-read-marcus-mariota-myles-jack/#ixzz33bL08RHf

While there will be some divisive prospects in the 2015 draft (see below), Mariota has shown no red flags. For the last three years, he has made weekly visits to the Boys & Girls Club of Emerald Valley. Mariota plays basketball, kickball and soccer with the kids, but dodgeball is the most intense. "It gets pretty competitive," Mariota said. "They tend to win."
A year from now, don't be surprised if Mariota wins the NFL draft derby and ends up in the top spot.


Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20140508/inside-read-marcus-mariota-myles-jack/#ixzz33bLvdi9a

Call me foolish..

I'll tell ya what I think is foolish, after seeing the kid play at 18 and nineteen years old, that at anytime a third round grade would enter the mind.

"djphinfan wrote:

Hundley is a very nice prospect.

Yeah, that's what i'm hearing. I plan on watching a few UCLA games this year to check him out. I don't watch many PAC 12 games unless it's Oregon or Stanford. I'm in Texas, so they don't show many West Coast games here...just SEC and BIG 12. I'm a Michigan Wolverines fan, so of course i watch many B1G games too.

"phinswolverinesrockets wrote:

Yeah, that's what i'm hearing. I plan on watching a few UCLA games this year to check him out. I don't watch many PAC 12 games unless it's Oregon or Stanford. I'm in Texas, so they don't show many West Coast games here...just SEC and BIG 12. I'm a Michigan Wolverines fan, so of course i watch many B1G games too.

what's your sig all about, you coach ball?