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Matt ryan with the first

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by marco_r31, Dec 18, 2007.

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  1. brent

    brent New Member

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    I just don't think Beck or Brown are ever going to be top players in the NFL.
     
  2. brent

    brent New Member

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    Cameron joined the Chargers after five seasons (1997-2001) as the head coach at Indiana University.

    Okay, If Ronnie Brown was in this draft no way either he nor Alex Smith would be sniffing the top ten selections. Also Beck has far less upside than any of this years top 5 QB's.
     
  3. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Okay, I looked it up, and you're right: I goofed. Cameron became the Chargers' OC starting with the 2002 season. However, he was preceded by... Norv Turner, who runs the same system Cameron does. (That's one reason the Chambers trade went through so easily.) It's safe to say Cameron had no issue with Drew Brees' presence. Heck, remember the emotion Cameron showed in an offseason press conference when asked about Drew Brees?

    Both of those statements are your opinions. You're probably correct on Alex Smith, but if we're applying current perceptions of players to their draft status in 2005, there's no way Ronnie falls out of the top five. I can think of maybe two teams who wouldn't instantly covet Ronnie after looking at tape of his 2007 performances.

    Saying that Beck has less upside than this year's top 5 QBs--at a time when we don't even know who the top 5 QBs are--is only your opinion. The fact is, Beck is on this team, and he's going to be its quarterback. Matt Ryan will not be. For better or worse.
     
  4. brent

    brent New Member

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    Why would the Chargers draft Phillip Rivers if they didn't at that time have some questions about Brees? And they were more than prepared to take ELI as I recall.........
     
  5. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Although the combines and all star games have yet to be played Beck would probably fall to 6th QB on most scouts rankings if he came out this year.
    Ryan, Brohm and Woodson will all have higher grades than Beck had last year. Brennan and Flacco probably also. Brennan and Flaaco we wont know until after the all star games and combine

    Upside is based strictly on physical attributes however. It doesnt take into account heart and the intangibles which we all hope Beck possesses. Those five all have better physical attributes than Beck
    It also doesnt mean that they will ever reach that upside. Ryan Leaf had off the wall upside and was out of the league in three years
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2007
  6. brent

    brent New Member

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    Its pretty simple the Chargers (cam included) had a top 5 pick and used it on a 6/4 220 QB from a very large College Program.
     
  7. azstryker

    azstryker New Member

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    I highly doubt Mueller will be back. Almost every single move he has made has been disasterous. I still have no idea why any of you believe Beck will pan out especially with this dubious history. Honestly though, Ran/Cam must be in "oh crap" mode in regards to Beck. He is not NFL ready and is already 26. He looks at least a year away from being mediocre. THey are living on borrowed time and Ryan is younger and more NFL ready than beck (ok the bar isn't exactly set very high there).

    Hopefully we get a new coach and GM and we draft what our franchise needs--a franchise QB.
     
  8. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Brees didn't break out until 2005. Who knows if it was the pressure of having Rivers there behind him, or if he just needed the time to get it all together.

    Either way, this year, San Diego doesn't look too smart in letting Brees go.

    That's probably correct. Beck flew under most teams' radar.

    This I disagree with. Beck put up great combine numbers. His arm strength was second only to JaMarcus Russell's. He has NFL QB height and looks the part physically. He may be a little thin for some, but he doesn't look like he'll break in half when hit head-on by a charging DT.
     
  9. brent

    brent New Member

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    Wow The Chargers Got a Kings Ransom for ELI and then still turned around and Drafted Rivers.
     
  10. azstryker

    azstryker New Member

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    Seriously, have you ever seen Beck?? He looks like a Junior High kid. He does not even come close to looking the part. He is too short and does look frail. Besides his poor physical stature, He also looks scared with no confidence in himself. Good lord man, all of your future arguments are tained by this laughable and completely inaccurate assessment.
     
  11. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    I'm well aware of what he looks like. But not all NFL QBs are or need to be monsters. Here's what I'm looking for in a QB's physical talent:

    Height: does he have the height to look over the cluster of bodies in front of him and see the field? Can he throw over the raised arms of defensive linemen and linebackers who are trying to tip the ball?

    Build: can he take the punishment of being hit repeatedly and get up as if nothing happened? Was he injury-prone in college? If he doesn't have ideal size, does he at least have the pocket awareness to avoid some hits?

    I think if you look at what Beck did in college and in the three games he played in this year, nothing I've said is "laughable." The offensive line let Beck get smacked around like a rag doll out there, and the only pain Beck suffered was to his pride. He's clearly got the arm, too.

    If you actually look at Beck on the field--look at what he's doing, don't just give him a glance--then he looks just fine. He's one inch shorter and one pound lighter than Trent Green. He's the same height and one pound heavier than Cleo Lemon. He's two inches taller and several pounds heavier than Drew Brees.

    Beck's physical features are just fine for an NFL QB. He only needs to adjust to the speed of the NFL.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2007
  12. my 2 cents

    my 2 cents Well-Known Member

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    I do not know if people believe what they read without watching tape or live games...but , and I have continually said this since his AS game coming out of college...Beck has very poor pocket awareness and ball handling ability. His arm for all I have read to be wonderful...I have not seen it....zero, nothing. He lacks zip on intermediate routes and and deep ball hang. I AGAIN say this...I have ot seen a thing that makes me think Beck is anything above mediocre in the future and he is piss poor right now.
     
  13. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Beck had the second-strongest arm at the combine, throwing at 61.1 M/ph. And one of the criticisms of his game against the Eagles was that he was throwing the ball with too much zip, especially on the short/intermediate routes.

    His pocket presence looked fine to me in all but the Jets game. I consider that an aberration since the offensive line was giving him almost literally no time. David Martin, Lorenzo Booker, and Chris Liwienski were getting Beck killed out there.

    We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
     
  14. Awsi Dooger

    Awsi Dooger New Member

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    Well, I'm obviously certified nuts because I distinctly remember betting on and against Cam Cameron frequently at Indiana in 2001, months after Drew Brees was drafted. Indiana ran the ball very often that season, which is something I take note of. You can win many wagers by significant margin either way, when a college team has settled on a heavy dose of running the football.

    Maybe Indiana head coaches consult the Chargers on their draft needs. Like a sister city planning a parade.

    Ronnie Brown is anything but an elite top 3 RB. Sheesh, that guy has brainwash capacity for some reason. Reminds me of the goofs at Football Outsiders.com, who continue to apologize for Ronnie and insist he's something special, even when their own long-studied numerical rankings place him much lower than where they subjectively want to put him.

    I wonder what other top 3 RB would have shared time with Jesse Chatman? :lol:
     
  15. Awsi Dooger

    Awsi Dooger New Member

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    Okay, I continued reading the thread and noticed that someone else pointed out that Cameron was still at Indiana in '01. I would have softened the beginning of my previous post somewhat if I'd known that.

    However, describing Brees as a franchise QB coming out of college is a wild reach. He went in the top of the 2nd round, which is not franchise territory, by definition.
     
  16. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I got my date wrong. I was already corrected.

    How exactly do you rank the NFL's top running backs, then? I'm going in the order of Tomlinson, Westbrook, Brown.
     
  17. Awsi Dooger

    Awsi Dooger New Member

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    That's absolutely correct, and very astute. Give me early evaluation almost every time, above overreaction to recency.

    The only exceptions can be when the early ratings are somehow bizarre. Like the case of Calais Campbell. I'll never understand how he got a big reputation. I was posting on Canes sites early in '06 and subsequently that he was nothing special. Guy has no clue on running plays and the play has to develop perfectly for his pass rush to be a threat.. He'll probably make some money based on stature and physical ability at the combine, but I'll be praying for the Dolphins to avoid him.
     
  18. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't think its out of the realm of possibility that we take Ryan or another Qb. Just because we took Beck doesn't mean we won't take another Qb this year. The coaching staff has been around Beck all year, maybe they feel like he's a backup caliber Qb. I think the fact that the guy isn't playing this late in the year on a team that will pick number 1 overall says something, maybe maybe not.
    But the people just acting as though its written in stone that Qb isn't even a consideration are out there. I don't believe Mueller or Cam felt like this team would be picking top 3 this year and if they see one of the Qbs coming out as a Allpro caliber/Franchise Qb they would be stupid not to take him.
    People act as though the draft is one round long, we can take a lot of defensive help in the draft even if we go offense at #1, between the rest of the draft and free agency we can improve the defense tremendously even if we go offense at 1.
     
  19. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Same here. The Hurricanes fans are going to complain, but I seriously don't see how he's considered by many to be a first rounder. The DE position is NOT that lacking for talent this year.

    Campbell needs to stay at UM and have a big 2008.
     
  20. mmikel30

    mmikel30 New Member

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    i think the fins take Chris long and trade J.T for a second
     
  21. Finsolari

    Finsolari New Member

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    I've seen Chris Long going to the Dolphins with with #1 pick in some mock drafts and plenty have raved about him. Can someone convince me to join the bandwagon? Thanks :)
     
  22. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    What's not to like?

    Hard-worker, productive, team player. This kid has everything you can want. I haven't watched enough games, but he was far and away the best player on that defense, and was always double and triple teamed. Even with that, he put up amazing numbers.

    Though right now I want Dorsey, I would not frown for a fraction of a second if we got Long instead.
     
  23. FinSane

    FinSane Cynical Dolphins Fan

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    Dorsey makes sense only in terms of need, but he's got that injury plus if Capers or a heir to Capers is calling the defense next year, Dorsey won't fit our scheme. With Jt possibly on the way out and Matt Roth looking lost out there, I think Chris Long would be a good pick. Yes, we can't shut down the run, but there are DT's such as Kentwan Balmer(who I have in my mock) who I think is better than Dorsey and would be available in the 2nd-3rd round. Chris Long is the only DE who is dominating in my opinion. Plus, we dont want NE to have anymore DL's.
     
  24. Motion

    Motion New Member

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    I really, REALLY hope we stay away from Ryan. I don't wanna take a QB in the first to begin with. There is no QB even remotely close to #1 overall value.
     
  25. azfinfanmang

    azfinfanmang Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Absolutely agree with Motion...
    I dont think there is any QB worthy of a top 10 pick...
     
  26. FinSane

    FinSane Cynical Dolphins Fan

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    We might have to wait until next year to find a franchise QB in the draft. Otherwise, Id hate to say it, but Matt Ryan is the closest there is.
     
  27. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Agreed. If we go QB, make it Brennan at the Chargers pick or rd3.

    I'm a Brennan lover after all, right Motion? :thumbup:
     
  28. azfinfanmang

    azfinfanmang Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Nope, if we go QB, let it be in 09 after we have filled a miriad of other glaring needs first....

    :up:
     
  29. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    I think Roth is getting a bit of a bad rap this year, because as far as I knew he has been playing through a groin injury all season long. I don't think he has looked lost, rather he has just dissappeared completely. I hope it is due to injury and not the fact that he isn't playing in rotation.
     
  30. FinSane

    FinSane Cynical Dolphins Fan

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    Hey I was a fan of Roth when we drafted him back in '05 fropm Iowa, but what about maybe moving him to OLB? Playing in the 3-4, Have Roth and Porter on the outside, Zach and Channing in the middle. Chris Long and JT playing the ends. OR, pickup Quentin Groves in the second, have Roth and JT on the DEs, with Porter and Groves playing on the outsides, with both switching from standing up to lining up at DE.
     
  31. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think we need a game changer if we stay at No. 1. I like Long, but he just looks like a guy who will be "ok" or "good" but never anything spectacular. Dorsey may be a game changer.

    The guy I'm keeping an eye on is Vernon Ghoulston. KB brought him up as a fast riser. A DE is more important that DT, espescially with the no. 1 pick. A d-lineman is more valuable the better his is at getting to the passer. You can find run stuffers later.
     
  32. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    I am gonna be keeping my eye on Ghoulston too.

    lol, I live in OH and the first time I even heard of the guy was two weeks ago on here. All I hear about is Laurenitis(and I knew of Jenkins too).

    Granted I abhore the Buckeyes, but I have no problem with them as pros. It just means I don't usually pay attention when people ramble on about how "great" the buckeyes are.
     
  33. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

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    As far as the San Diego situation it was far far different.

    Brees was regressing in his 2nd year to the point he only had a 67.5QB rating in 2003. It's honestly amazing he turned it around.

    As for those that question if Beck can turn it around I give you this 4 game stretch of Brees in 2002: 0 TD's, 4 INT's, 1 Fumble. A 4 game stretch of 60.2, 79, 40.6, 72.9 (the 70's were the 2 games he didn't throw INT's, but no TD's either).

    This team needs to bring in a proven veteran who can take the reigns if Beck fails. This team will be drafting high for a few years so there will be other opportunities to take QB's so the team might as well rebuild it's D, get a TE and a couple WR's while finding out if Beck has 'it'.
     
  34. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Brees had actually been a pro for 3 years before they drafted Rivers.
     
  35. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I've already got my eye on Cullen Harper/Ryan Perilloux for the 2009 draft, lol
     

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