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Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Vertical Limit, Jan 3, 2019.
Just giving everyone else a head start. It's only fair.
This is the problem with the rhetoric and hyperbole that is tossed around simply because we are disappointed by results.
If Gase sucks. And Tannehill sucks. And Grier sucks. And Tannenbaum sucks. And the scouting department sucks. And Ross sucks. And the assistant coaches suck....then how are we consistently average?
Are we a disappointing franchise? Yes
Does being average make it hard to break free from being average the way the draft is set up? Absolutely.
Do we suck? No.
We are average, but we the fans, the media and ultimately the team, respond to average with actions that apply to teams that are horrible. We gut coaching staffs, we change power structures like we were pre-Mayfield Browns. It is nuts.
When team is average for as long as we have been, we should be making bold moves in the draft to acquire blue chip talent to lay over that average base. We should be maintaining an average base while trading numerous picks to get into the Top 5 of the draft for otherworldly skill guys. (I know we tried that with Jordan, but that is part and parcel to the gamble.)
All we effectively have done is start over every couple of years and not improved our results. We should be coming at this from a different direction, then fire everybody.
Agreed- As much as we can hate on the Jets and Bills they had a plan and executed. We need to do the same. Even if Darnold and Allen wind up failing, at least they tried. They used draft capital to give themselves a chance. Will Miami act in a strategic matter to do the same? If 2020 is the year for QB's, does Miami have the long term vision like the Jets did to position themselves properly?
I agree completely. If you're good at something but want to be great, that doesn't mean to ignore all the positive stuff you already have going. The answer is to build on it and most people seem to completely miss that aspect.
I mean. What’s different than Miami taking Tannehill and ultra talented Devante Parker? And bringing in weapons? I’d say Miami has done a good job through the draft. And supposedly that points to Grier. If we drafted really well and sucked in all other aspects, averageness remains. We didn’t hit on the QB. It happens. We drafted an average very talented QB. We could of done a lot worse.
Generally don't agree with you but damn I couldn't have said it better myself.
My only disagreement would be Im not sure this is the year to do that.
I'd almost rather take a flyer on Bridewater and if a prospect you like drops at QB...take him.
Aside from QB do you see any prospects you feel we should be trading up for this year?
I am still of the opinion this team has good talent at skill positions, excluding QB. The problem is the lines are so bad it undermines everything else. We have two good tackles, 1 actually since they did not lock up James and who Davis? The rest of the line is scrap heap material and they keep making the mistake of bringing in old vets that get hurt easily.
The defensive line has had little better attention. Who do you REALLY have there? Godchaux, Taylor and an old Wake? After that it's the same situation as the offensive line.
We are rotten at the core and I truly believe if we fix that this team will improve greatly.
One of the best posts I have read in the last couple months here.
Hmmm, let’s see, in the last twenty years let’s say, how many seasons have we seen above average qb play and leadership.?
And coincidentally that year we were not average.
How many teams have done this effectively?
I'm not sure I've ever seen a team apply this tactic.
How many teams have been effective constantly rotating their staff every three years when he average record stays 8-8?
31 teams don't win the Super Bowl every year. That's 96.9% of the league. So by many people's standards here, 97% of NFL teams suck. Last year, everyone sucked but Philly.
It might be an interesting strategy to test, but I doubt it will ever happen. I think the belief would be that one player won't impact your team heavily enough to be worth the investment of capital you seem suggest, and with bust rates being what they are, it's essentially putting all your eggs in a basket (as with Jordan). Another example of a negative would probably be the Ricky Williams draft by Ditka and the Saints. That cost him a job. A variant on the "buy ****loads of free agents" that teams do sometimes try.
The big one to hit on is and will remain QB, especially now. There is a reason teams with young and cheap QBs are winning - they can afford to build a quality team before their QB hits a gigantic payday. Then when that paycheck finally needs to be made, they hopefully have been able to determine either he's a high end star who can sustain with less, or that it's time for another shot. That's where we have failed. We have either had utter garbage, or we brought in a rookie who required too much time to 'develop' and then never really did, but we doubled down on anyway.
Yeah QB is the big one for sure, but Thill was good enough to win with.
I just think we've been cautious in the past two or three drafts...waiting for the draft to come to us. And then when we do strike, there's no theme or specific goal. I'd rather see boldness like when we went for Jordan. Yes, that didn't work out, but bold moves don't always work.
I just see an average team in need of special talent in some key places.
We're always basically an average team, which tells me that we are one great quarterback away from being a great team. We're definitely stuck on the mediocrity treadmill and have been for quite some time, but that is due mainly to the fact that we haven't had a good quarterback on this roster since Dan Marino. He retired in 1999....That's twenty years ago. We're due for a change at the position. We made the playoffs with Chad Pennington in 2008 and it was because he had a great year as our QB. He was absolutely fantastic that year for us.
We are worlds apart on the qb, so maybe I’ll pass on this debate
Let me ask you...what makes a great team? Is it wins? Because if it is, allow me to pose this question...
How many games did we lose during the Gase era because the defense simply couldn't close the game? Allow a team to drive down for a game winning score with time running out? Does the quarterback play defense?
Because we've put so much focus on offense, without puttng as much focus on building a powerhouse defense that we've been mediocre for so many years
The problem comes down to drafting. We traded up to get Jordan who was supposed to be a franchise DE. We took Harris in the first round who’s been a no show. 7 out of our last 12 1st/2nd round draft picks have been defense.
The problem is that we’ve missed on too many picks both offensively and defensively. We’ve had offenses that sputter and keep our D on the field too long, which makes it tough to close out games on D. We’ve had offenses that can’t do anything with turnovers, field position wins or couldn’t help us close out games.
How many times has the patriots defense given up a go ahead score? Mean while Brady still marches them down to get into a position to win. OR, and I know its crazy talk for Miami fans, when the Patriots are up one score, they don't go 3 and out twice in a row to give the opposing team multiple chances, they tend to go down and score to go up two scores and make it out of reach, or at the very least gain some first downs and keep the ball away from the opposing offense. To just blame the defense as giving up the lead is extremely short sighted on what actually goes on in the game.
I still think our biggest problem after QB is the offensive line closely followed by the defensive line. It doesn't matter who you have at QB if as soon as they take the snap there is a guy ready to pound them. If your oline cant hold blocks or open holes It doesn't matter how good your Receivers, TE's or rb's are. The play is blown up before it gets started. Same thing on defense if your line can't get penetration on their own or keep guys off your linebackers.
By my estimation we have Two OT's, assuming we get James resigned, and 1 Guard. On defense we have Godchaux, Taylor and an old Wake. Every one else needs to go. Every one. Thats gonna take a minute to get done.
Yeah I think always waiting on the draft to come to you is not always the best move, but rather than moving up, moving down usually seems the better course. It affords more chances to hit on impact players high and get contributors low. If you stock capital well enough, it lets you control some of the draft moving and get you into better position to select the people you want and need.
I do agree our "theme" for lack of a better word has been off. We haven't seemed to commit to anything in particular, just kind of scattering picks across all positions. This doesn't really let us build a position of strength or an elite unit (see Dallas OL, Rams DL, Chiefs DL). I also think we have the old issue of selecting talent without a clear plan for that talent. Jordan was partially a victim of this. Minkah could be a great pick eventually, but it's clear we didn't really know what to do with him in relation to the existing talent on the team. Could he be a better pro than, say, Leighton VanderEsch or Frank Ragnow? Yeah probably. But both of those guys would have clear roles and probably would have excelled on us as they did for their respective teams. Hopefully Grier can fix that issue.
As for THill, I'm with DJ on that. No, he isn't good enough to win with. He's probably good enough, given a superior team, to maybe reach the playoffs, but I don't see him as being a good enough or consistent enough QB to win 3-4 playoff games in a row. We can get "decent but inconsistent" from a much much cheaper option imo, though I'd rather set sights higher. Hopefully Grier can fix that too.
My wife often does that, answers a question with a question, goes on and on and on about the question SHE asked and never answers my question.
I don’t think it’s the lack of talent on defense. We’ve had some awesome talent on defense. I just feel that our DC’s as of late have been huge busts.
Had we made an effort to get Wade Phillips or Jim Swartz, our defense would be forcing 3 and outs on a regular basis...and giving more opportunities for the offense.
With Gases offensive scheme not being a high flying, fast scoring system, the defense needed to be extraordinary. Sadly, the bend don’t break wide 9 is a broken concept and needs to be shot in the face with a bazooka...TWICE
Means you bring up invalid things, exactly like you're doing here...
Not me. We have some pieces here an there, but IMO we have some serious holes to fill at several positions. We need a legit DE in the worse way among others because our pass rush was a nightmare.
Oh really? And do tell how asking about our inept defense is an invalid point?
Gotta agree to a point. Our defensive coordinators and schemes have been awful. I am almost giddy that the Wide Nine is dead and buried here. I do feel way better about our young linebackers now than I did at the beginning of the season and our secondary has some great pieces, but the line is a mess. Whoever the new coach is, he and Grier are going to have to address that quickly.
There were six games this season our defense gave up 32+ points....four of those games were 40+. So it would be pretty easy to argue that the defense led to 6 of our 9 losses. The average score this season league-wide was 23 points so we were way behind the curve there.
How many times did we score 23 or better? 7 times...and we won all 7 of those games. That means there's plenty of blame to go to the offense as well.
One other thing that jumps out in my mind was penalties...how many drives did we extend after making a crucial 3rd down stop and then the yellow flag came out? Just dumb penalties alone led to a few of those losses.
To me, the season came down to not being able to stop the run. It was a problem all year and once Howard became hurt and we couldn't stop the pass either, our odds of winning were basically zero. Couple that with Stills/Amendola as our top two receivers down the stretch and it's not hard to figure out how we became 7-9.
League leaders in something. All right Miami!
I just watched Schwartz' wide 9 absolutely destroy the Chicago bears in an offensive snooze fest. On our end it seems more like a personnel issue than a scheme issue.
It does suck that we have been so gosh darn average though.LOL.
No doubt they have success. The get great push up the middle. Fletcher Cox is a beast! I don't know the answer to this, but the question I have about the Dolphins is would the personnel we have fit a better scheme and should they have changed it?
No, it’s all Tannehill’s fault lol
Its time to change how teams set up their scouting departments.
We need to stop having guys specialize in regions of the country and start having guys specialized in units on the field.
The old (but still current) way of doing things is built on a pre internet and less televised college team exposure world. Because of that, there's an entire scouting culture built around finding that diamond in the rough, which to me is silly.
You want to be relevant? Hit on your first 3 picks every year and to hell with finding that star player from East Gibip State A&M in the 5th round. The best way to do that is have guys specialized in certain aspects of the game. There is just simply no way there's enough scouts who can spot talent in every position group.
Who thinks it’s all Tannehills fault? I think most people I see know that we have issues on both sides of the ball. Difference being that many like myself have seen enough out of Tannehill to be ready to move on and find something better.
Reality being we need DL, OL and a QB
I've accepted the fact I'll see a championship probably when I'm an old man.
So what do you guys think? I have a long standing $500 bet with a Bengals fan that the Dolphins will win the SB before the Cincinnati Reds win the World Series. Good bet or bad? lol.