I agreed with him during the Bills game whilst I was watching. I've seen nothing since to make that opinion change. Oppositions Defensive backs can cheat on routes and our receivers dont warrant any double coverage.

 

This should fit real well with everyone's hope that Ryan Tannehill will one day become a franchise QB.

 

Translation: Hartline is a possession receiver, not a vertical threat guy.

With all this "in a redzone for 100 yards" practice we seem to be getting you'd think Hart & Bess would be more productive when we're actually inside it. :lol:

 

I agree with Mayock's assessment here. I think that if we had two additional receiving threats that balanced the offense we'd be pretty well stocked. Obviously, there are other places we could use improvement in, but I think that if we had those two speed threats to balance out the receiving corp that everything else would look better. I also think that is the issue on defense. I like our speed and play making ability in the front 7, but I think it's lacking in the secondary. I think that if we had a safety with ball skills back there our TO totals and our overall record would look very different. I think that if we add a vet WR like Bowe, Wallace or Jennings and draft one speed WR (even with a later pick) then the offense could turn the corner depending obviously on whether those are hits and on the development of Matthews, Clay, Egnew). On defense if we added one of the stud pass rushers and a safety like Elam that the defense would also turn a corner (from good to very good). Obviously RT has to continue to develop, but I see no reason to believe he won't. A little more consistency in hitting some of those deep passes would make our offense look completely different. Better timing (which should come in time) and a more balanced receiving corp could easily make that happen. A few more plays from the safety position would likewise make our D much better. I don't think Clemons has been horrid, but he's also missed a ton of opportunities to make or prevent plays that a more instinctive S wouldn't have.

 

Its also easy to cheat on routes when the majority of them are out routes to the sideline. How many came close to being picked because we are too predictable, especially when throwing to Hartline.

 

I don't really agree with Mayock. At the end of the day faster receivers wouldn't make Tannehill a more accurate QB. It wouldn't help with the issues that Tannehill has been having. It would help mask them up but Tannehill still has to improve.

 

Or shoot down some peoples' hopes that Jeff Ireland has built an offense filled with talented skill position players....

but it won't. I mean, what the hell does Mike Mayock know?

 

oh lawdy lawd. these 2 .....times a billion.

A man can dream.

 

Don't think anyone has suggested that to be the case.

 

So you admit we lack sufficient WR options? Because there are posters who are not doing that.

 

Of course he has to still improve; he's a rookie..... but there's zero reason to force your QB to constantly throw into tighter windows when you can obviously surround him with a cast capable of improving it. Do you think Aaron Rodgers faces tight windows all game long? His guys create space and separation, and when they don't, they can still create it with their body by shielding defenders.

There's not a QB in the league who, under our circumstances, would say, "Ehh, I'm fine with the windows & separation I'm currently afforded." Every QB would benefit from better receiver separation as well as NOT having to "play in redzone mode for 100 yards with defenses compressing us". That "compression" is on our WR personnel, namely their lack of speed and big play ability, not the QB.

 

I think we need to add talent, but I think its more an issue of depth than Hartline/Bess. Also goes beyond the WRs. If Egnew turns out to be a good player, then that changes a lot.

 

...What?


Now i'm not saying RTH doesn't have to improve, he has been and still has a long way to go, but Speed equals seperation atleast looking at it simplistically in this sense which is moreso the basis for the argument. RTH can't throw the ball and catch it too, nor can he throw the ball AND create seperation AND catch it for that matter.

If you wanna compare how many times one of our WRs/TEs have completely blown an easy opportunity (For points or not) vs how many times RTH has just thrown a completely BAD/inaccurate/disgusting pass, i'd be willing to bet the ratio would be something like 4:1 or 5:1.

this whole notion that Tannehill is really inaccurate is mind boggling. The kid has some of the most amazing touches on some of his tight window throws, especially earlier in the season. and his bombs are 1 step or a decent WR from being points.

 

There are still holdouts.

 

Do you really believe Mike Mayock has the ability to know whether the play of a rookie QB is not a problem, when rookie QBs typically play so comparatively poorly, and Tannehill is playing no better than a typical one?

Mike Mayock knows a lot, and he certainly knows a lot more than me, but this ability he does not have IMO, nor does anyone else.

 

Who? Please link a post to someone saying that the offense is "filled with talented skill position players". They don't exist.

 

..... but he knows receivers and can assess talent, making your "rookie QB argument" irrelevant. :wink2:

 

Not much, he also said THill was a fine Qb after the Bills game, couple of weeks and losses later, with Tannehill not playing well and of course it is the speed on offense

Not poor accuracy, spotty OL play etc.

 

Nope, pretty much the same offensive players that MMoore had more success with, but do go on with the with the usual "We need a Qb" followed then by "we need better Wr's" chant.

Omar Kelly, of all people, had a solid article about the actual why we've been losing, and it has nothing to do with speed at Wr.

 

I'd really like an in-depth analysis on what you think 'inaccurate' means, sometime.... And maybe accurate too, for that matter. At times it feels like we are watching two different people with the way you describe the kids play, but atleast you toned down sanchezesque "wildy inaccurate" to just "poor accuracy"

 

I know you know this, we won't get one of the stud pass rushers AND Elam..

Rafs I think we have to go offense in a big way..To get two players that will win positions on this defense I think your going to have to spend hi draft picks to accomplish that, I don't think our offense can afford losing that top talent.

I think you have to identify the elite defensive talent in the draft, T'eo, Jones, Barr, Werner, those players will be better than any other offensive player on the board not named Eiffert, if one drops, then sure, go for it, but if not, start the offensive rebuild right there with Eiffert..

 

Padre, you can't be serious here can you?

Mat Moore had Brandon Marshall in addition to what Tannehill has.

And spare me the "oh but do go on" garbage. I never absolved Tannehill of ANY blame.

 

A.) Omar Kelley is an idiot with an agenda.

B.) Same receivers Moore has? Really didnt know what Marshall was on this team. What were Bess and Hartline's number last year as compared to this year?

C.) Matt Moore played one game this year and threw for 140 yards or so.

D.) I like Matt Moore but I want him off this team, there is this myth about his play last year which is ridiculous.

 

Also I cant imagine how you can watch AJ Green, Calvin Johnson, and other receivers like that where you just throw the ball up and they get it and not thing that it would help Tannehill TREMEDOUSLY to have one.

 

I'm hard on RT right now but two things I'm not worried about when it comes to his future, accuracy and touch..it's in his skillset..

 

Speed helps, yes. A more accurate QB with better ball placement and anticipation helps even more.

Not sure how to take that last comment. Hartline and Bess never had a chance with you.

 

maybe Tannehill is really inaccurate. maybe the other NFL QBs are just better than him (IMO it is too early to say, but someone with much more knowledge could make a reasoned assessment)... but watching the other NFL games, I see WRs making plays for their QBs: not always, of course; not all at the same rate, of course. but...it happens!!!


short passes trasformed in loooooooong gains, even TD
bad throws transformed in catches and/or big plays
average/not perfect/not so special passes in End Zone that became TDs
catching some jump balls (we just don't have anyone capable of that!)


how many times we can say something like that happened with RT? for sure, the Fasano TD was one of these moments, when a bad/not good ball was transformed in a TD by the receiver's effort&skill, but I can't remember many other situations... (but maybe I am wrong: memory can be very selective sometimes)

 

I don't think you'll find many posters that think Hartline and Bess are not worthy of being starting caliber WRs on just about any team.

The point is that they are the only options and because of this they're being asked to do things they aren't good at. It's the old jamming a square peg into a round hole issue.

Hartline and Bess are good at what they're good at. They're useful on just about any team. But when your entire unit relies almost entirely on these guys, then the group as a whole is completely insufficient.

EDIT: And Egnew needs to be active before there is even a single expectation of him. At this point pinning any hope on him becoming anything is optimistic.

 

Right on the money, Deej.

 

Agreed, but the same could apply to anyone that is drafted this offseason.

 

And herein lies the problem. There's pretty much no evidence that if Dolphins fans "be patient" (i.e. shut up, don't complain, but pay a lot of money to go to games to watch losses, bad offense and a promising quarterback prospect drown in roster insufficiency), that there will be a payoff. Specifically, there's no evidence that this front office will be able to find the receiver to complement the kid, without simultaneously ripping open some other hole that ends with the same result...drowning. Next, we'll have the receivers, but no ground game. "Be patient, have faith that this staff will find the kind of tailback that provides the ground game that keeps the kid out of all these 3rd & Long situations." Then, we'll have the ground game but terrible pass protection. "Be patient, have faith that this staff will find some people that can protect the kid long enough to actually get a pass off to one of these receivers." Then, we'll be back to having no receivers.

This isn't pure speculation. It's been very literally how things have proceeded for five years from 2008 to 2012. All people want is a little evidence that something is actually changing. They're not getting that evidence. And so they're unhappy. They're impatient. They're complaining. And most damning of all, they're not spending money.

 

I think when we watch a WR break a routine pass 15 yards for a first down or a WR out-muscle someone in the end zone or watch a WR stay on his feet until sufficient contact it is our imagination. It has to be

 

This sums it up. I've lost faith that Ireland can and will accrue talent faster than we bleed it away.

 

What would be your response to this then when factoring in that our lack of speed throws off the very aspect a WCO is predicated on which is timing?

But Mayock also said that Tannehill could benefit long-term from the offense’s struggles this year, particularly if they are able to add one or two receiving threats this offseason.

“As a matter of fact, I think the experience of having to play this kind of football is going to help him,” Mayock said. “He has to fit it in tight windows. He’s got to be physically tough because he’s going to take a little bit of a beating right now. And once you start to get some speed out there and some wide receiver separation, it’s going to look like he’s got huge windows compared to what he’s dealt with this year.”

The lack of speed correlates directly to some peoples opinions that Tannehill is inaccurate which is simply not true but rather that hes throwing to a spot where the receiver is expected to get to...and our receivers consistently fail to get to those spots.

 

I don't agree with that. That's just taking into account the deep balls, which he's been good on this season even thigh he missed Hartline twice against NE. He's been inaccurate, especially lately. He's had poor ball placement, as well.

 

Bold- QBs are going to miss, Brady missed on us SEVERAL times. but you are constantly pointing out some missed throws like it is the sole GIANT, GLARING, CONSISTENT PROBLEM. It isn't. When has he had more poorly placed passes than any other QB on an average? (especially in an abundance like you seem to be implying). I still don't have the faintest idea where this is coming from. Accuracy and ball placement are near the bottom of the list of things he needs to work on, matter-of-factly those are actually some of the biggest things he has going for him in his repertoire...especially for such a young/raw/inexperienced QB. For every 5-6 dropped / blown catches that touch the WRs hands, he might have 1 bad throw you could call completely inaccurate. and i believe i'm being way generous, but if even half of those catches are made by the WRs, then that one missed/"inaccurate" pass is an excusable irrelevance in this instance.... which takes it back to the Talent he has around him.

edit: Also as far as the underlined goes, when mentioning 'speed' on WRs no one is talking about "only deep balls". That is not to say that isn't ONE of the factors, its just not the only thing people mean when speed is brought up. speed is almost everything when broken down even into simplistic timing and route running. Speed gets you seperation, aids in deception for routes AND gets you the deep ball on top of it. it is an 'and' like a plus, not the only basis. Speed is the foundation of the Position...