Mike Wallace..showing signs of life?

"jim1 wrote:

You've proven nothing. I saw a post earlier where you said the issue is all on Wallace. You're either blind or delusional. and I doubt that you're blind. Your determination to be right has overridden your sense of logic- unfortunately for you, when it comes to the issue of the lack of efficiency on deep balls to Wallace this year, you're clearly wrong. You also have every excuse in the book- Tannehill has said that his deep balls to Wallace aren't good, the coaches have said the same, analysts and most fans can see it clearly. But for you, Tannehill admitting to his own failure on deep balls to Wallace is just him being self deprecating. What a convenient spin as you try to sustain your argument.

What's hypocritically ironic about this is KB has consistently and vehemently stated the QB makes the receiver. :lol:
If Tannehill were able to connect on an acceptable level of those opportunities and Wallace's production were noticeably improved b/c of it, we'd be hearing from KB how it was all Tannehill and how Tannehill made Wallace. It's a heads I win, tails you lose argument from KB on this. It doesn't matter that Tannehill has said it. Doesn't matter than Philbin has said it. Doesn't matter that the plays themselves say it as Tannehill has left downfield opportunities on the field time after time after time. It's still all Wallace's fault. KB is arguing as if we're talking about Davone Bess's vertical ability rather than the NFL's most productive downfield receiver since 2009. Just absurd.

"KB21 wrote:

Tell me how is he going to lead Wallace to the left of the endzone when Wallace doesn't even locate the ball till he has done opened up to the RIGHT? Do you think Wallace is so good that he can open up to the right, spin around 180 degrees, and still catch the ball in the left part of the endzone? Particularly with a safety that has already located the ball before him if Ryan throws it 2 seconds sooner

First of all Wallace was blowing past the Safety. Wallace, from what I can see, opened up to the right because the pass was pretty much over his head, and it was also short. I'd like to see a different angle of the play, because it isn't as if I haven't noticed and questioned to myself how Wallace chose to open up his hips on the play.

I would have rather seen Tannehill throw the ball sooner and on target as opposed to waiting until Wallace was already around 50 yards down the field. No matter how you cut it, Wallace would have blown by the DB if the pass wasn't short, and it was short because Tannehill threw it late. I'd rather take my chances on Wallace outrunning the Safety to the ball on the well timed and well placed ball than throw one short and late.

One of my problems here is that your stance is that all of these deep ball issues are on Wallace, as evidenced by your comment in post # 455. In this particular play I don't see anyone saying that Wallace probably should not have made that catch, but you take it a step further and say that the RT throw was nearly perfect. If you really think that "It is just Mike" in terms of the deep ball issues between Wallace and RT, it's kind of hard to take you seriously.

"KB21 wrote:

Why? Because Ryan has not shown problems with hitting other receivers on throws of those distances. It is just Mike.

And those receivers do not possess the same skillset, the Qb has to adjust to his weapons skillset..the speed Wallace possesses take an adjustment by the Qb to synchronize the play..

"Fin-Omenal wrote:

No. Again I've said I didn't expect him to make the throw. It would've been an incredible toss. Please do your research

Do my research on what? Ridiculous expectations? Tannehill literally lets it fly as soon as Mike Wallace turns his head around for the very first time (when he's at the 25 and in the middle of field). Tannehill gets destroyed half a second later, and yet he puts that ball at the only place where his WR can make the play and the safety cannot.

"KB21 wrote:

The weak argument here is this idea that Ryan Tannehill struggles so much on deep throws and is the only reason Mike Wallace isn't productive. The burden of proof is on you to prove that Ryan misses wide open receivers more than any other quarterback in the NFL. It's not on me. I've already proven that Mike Wallace is an inefficient deep ball receiver across two consecutive seasons with two different quarterbacks.

I've said before that Ryan has the talent to be a good deep thrower, but the adjustment period takes some time, this is a different receiver that he's never had to adjust to in his short Qb career..

On the deep stuff, Wallace may not have the strength in his hands to be a jump ball guy, but that's not the only way to beat your man with his skillset.

"jim1 wrote:

I would have rather seen Tannehill throw the ball sooner and on target

Then you'd have seen a very incomplete pass because Mike Wallace only turns his head at the 25 yard line. Which is right when Tannehill lets it fly.

"Vendigo wrote:

Do my research on what? Ridiculous expectations? Tannehill literally lets it fly as soon as Mike Wallace turns his head around for the very first time (when he's at the 25 and in the middle of field). Tannehill gets destroyed half a second later, and yet he puts that ball at the only place where his WR can make the play and the safety cannot.

That's not the case imo, if Wallace is even....he's leaving. Im not upset at RYAN for that play. But the ball could've 100% been placed better.

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"djphinfan wrote:

I've said before that Ryan has the talent to be a good deep thrower, but the adjustment period takes some time, this is a different receiver that he's never had to adjust to in his short Qb career..

On the deep stuff, Wallace may not have the strength in his hands to be a jump ball guy, but that's not the only way to beat your man with his skillset.

His skill set is speed. He brings nothing else to the table. We could have that speed on a much cheaper contract and a player you do not have to change your scheme to fit.

"KB21 wrote:

I didn't call anyone delusional.

Here is the formation the Dolphins were in at the start of that play.

It is 3 wide with the TE off the line on the left. Including the TE, this is 3 on one side and 1 on the other. Notice the defense. The linebackers are 10 yards off the LOS. Carolina is in a prevent defense....a defense designed to not let the opponent beat them down the field.

Here's a pic of the action down the field after the ball has been thrown.

Notice the guy circled very poorly in red. That's the deepest defender. The ball is in the air, and Mike IS NOT BEHIND THAT DEFENDER yet. If this ball is thrown any sooner, that defender can ignore Mike and go for the ball. Ryan pumped the ball to see if he could draw that safety up. Unfortunately, I can't see the action down the field on this youtube view when Ryan is pump faking. My guess is, the pump fake kept the deep safety from back pedaling to the goal line and allowed Mike to run by him.

Here is the problem with the play.

Wallace opens up the wrong way.

Agreed on this topic..

"Fin-Omenal wrote:

That's not the case imo, if Wallace is even....he's leaving. Im not upset at RYAN for that play. But the ball could've 100% been placed better.

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yeah. Ryan should have anticipated that mike would look the wrong way for the ball.

You are not going to win this argument. This argument has already been won, and you have to look no farther than the numbers Mike Wallace has put up to see this. Mike Wallace was a horrible signing by this organization. He is overpaid, and he will not be here just as soon as the team can save money by cutting him. That die has already been cast.

Why isn't it both? Maybe Ryan should've thrown it better AND Wallace could have played it better? I swear some people SEEM. to just argue to show how smart and objective they are and once a stance is taken that's it, no other possibilities exist. Football is a combination of factors.

I haven't seen clear video of the route. If Wallace opened up the "wrong" way, what is the indication that opening left is the right way? Did he peek a few times?

"Fin-Omenal wrote:

That's not the case imo, if Wallace is even....he's leaving. Im not upset at RYAN for that play. But the ball could've 100% been placed better

When Tannehill makes the throw, Wallace is shy of the right hashmark and going at an 45 degree angle towards the endzone with the safety coming over from the right side. Unless Tannehill develops the uncanny ability to slice it 75 yards to the back of the endzone, there's no way he's making a play to left there. Not with being hit half a second later. I literally see no other spot he could've put that ball. None.

"KB21 wrote:

You're right. I haven't proven anything. Mike Wallace is the one that has proven that he isn't worth his contract.

You haven't proven anything.
Ryan Tannehill directly stated he's to blame for not converting open deep passes all year to the NFL's most productive downfield receiver of the past 5 years. Our QB went to the extent of saying WALLACE HAS GOTTEN TOO WIDE OPEN, and there's plenty of all 22 film to back it up. So please, show us all how Wallace is at fault for all the deep plays left on the field rather than superficially pointing to one hail mary as if it somehow suffices for the other 30 occasions.

Hmph, which one seems more logical and likely, that Tannehill is lying and it's really the NFL's top vertical threat who's at fault for all the missed opportunities.... or that Tannehill is telling the truth?

"phinsational wrote:

You haven't proven anything.
Ryan Tannehill directly stated he's to blame for not converting open deep passes all year to the NFL's most productive downfield receiver. Our QB went to the extent of saying WALLACE HAS GOTTEN TOO WIDE OPEN, and there's plenty of all 22 film to back it up. So please, show us all how Wallace is at fault for all the deep plays left on the field rather than superficially pointing to one hail mary as if somehow suffices for the other 30 occasions.

Hmph, which one seems more logical and likely, that Tannehill is lying and it's really the NFL's top vertical threat who's at fault for all the missed opportunities.... or that Tannehill is telling the truth?

Wtf have you proven? Nothing

It's one thing to be down on Wallace, but to not put any blame on Tanne or, especially, the OL is crazy. Tanne did miss him on a number of occasions. Was Wallace supposed to dive five yards out of bounds on that one play when he was wide open? Even Gruden was like: "Yikes!". It's also very hard to judge how Tanne and Mike can be together given the fact that Tanne is the most sacked QB in the league. Mayock said it during the Thursday night game. He said to take advantage of his speed skills, you have to have time and Big Ben is great at extending the play and getting time for Wallace to get open deep. Here, Tanne just has no time. He has to drop back and often hit his first read. The point is really moot until we fix the OL. However, blaming everything on Wallace and not putting any blame on Tanne and most importantly, the OL is just nuts, but whatever.

"Fin-Omenal wrote:

That's not the case imo, if Wallace is even....he's leaving. Im not upset at RYAN for that play. But the ball could've 100% been placed better.

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The thing is, how would Wallace have opened his hips if the ball wasn't short and pretty much directly in line with him. I've looked at this play time and again from the angle provided, and although I'm not a big fan of how Wallace played this one, he had the DB catching up to him on a late, underthrown pass and the ball wasn't in front of him to the left heading toward the open left half of the endzone.

Again, this is being discussed iirc because it was mentioned that the throw was nearly perfect, which to me is a head shaker. Of all the lousy deep balls that Tannehill has thrown to Wallace, this is by no means one of them. It's a late desperation throw that was imo thrown late and didn't lead Wallace away from the DB and to the open left half of the endzone. Far from a perfect throw, but there have been so many other piss poor deep throws to Wallace that it hardly makes sense to focus on this one.

"JMHPhin wrote:

Why isn't it both?

Because that would be patently false. I've just wachted that play in HD for roughly 20 times. I don't see any other option for Tannehill on that throw. None at all. If Mike Wallace turns his head around at the 40 or 35, maybe Tannehill could've led him to the left. He was certainly staring him down. But once that safety was in play, he had to throw behind him.

"Sceeto wrote:

It's one thing to be down on Wallace, but to not put any blame on Tanne or, especially, the OL is crazy. Tanne did miss him on a number of occasions. Was Wallace supposed to dive five yards out of bounds on that one play when he was wide open? Even Gruden was like: "Yikes!". It's also very hard to judge how Tanne and Mike can be together given the fact that Tanne is the most sacked QB in the league. Mayock said it during the Thursday night game. He said to take advantage of his speed skills, you have to have time and Big Ben is great at extending the play and getting time for Wallace to get open deep. Here, Tanne just has no time. He has to drop back and often hit his first read. The point is really moot until we fix the OL. However, blaming everything on Wallace and not putting any blame on Tanne and most importantly, the OL is just nuts, but whatever.

CK has already proven that Ryan DID NOT throw that ball out of bounds, that it was in fact a poor effort by Mike Wallace to make that catch.

Mike Wallace is exactly what I thought he was prior to coming to Miami, and those of you who continue to want to argue me over this fact simply are doing so because you don't want it to be correct. Deep down, most of you are seeing what you want to see simply because the team paid so much money to get him. I take solace in the fact that I knew this was how it was going to be in this system. I said it before he was signed, and I haven't been proven wrong yet.

"jim1 wrote:

The thing is, how would Wallace have opened his hips if the ball wasn't short and pretty much directly in line with him. I've looked at this play time and again from the angle provided, and although I'm not a big fan of how Wallace played this one, he had the DB catching up to him on a late, underthrown pass and the ball wasn't in front of him to the left heading toward the open left half of the endzone.

Again, this is being discussed iirc because it was mentioned that the throw was nearly perfect, which to me is a head shaker. Of all the lousy deep balls that Tannehill has thrown to Wallace, this is by no means one of them. It's a late desperation throw that was imo thrown late and didn't lead Wallace away from the DB and to the open left half of the endzone. Far from a perfect throw, but there have been so many other piss poor deep throws to Wallace that it hardly makes sense to focus on this one.

I honestly don't see how anyone can look at that and say the throw was late when if it is thrown any earlier, the safety simply tracks right to the ball and picks it off. You are seeing what you want to see because you only want to blame Ryan Tannehill for Mike Wallace's short comings.

"KB21 wrote:

His skill set is speed. He brings nothing else to the table. We could have that speed on a much cheaper contract and a player you do not have to change your scheme to fit.

There's no doubt in my mind that we must figure out how much production we are not getting because of the fact that Ryan is not in bens class at this point, there's no doubt in my mind that's what Ben is and is directly responsible for a lot of Wallace's production..

So I get why you feel we overpaid, which I think most of us agree with, but were trying to also project what this receiver could project into if our Qb grows and take a substantial jump in play, and whether then could he be closer to his value..

"KB21 wrote:

I honestly don't see how anyone can look at that and say the throw was late when if it is thrown any earlier, the safety simply tracks right to the ball and picks it off

Not to mention the fact that if was thrown to, say, the 35 with a lot of open field in front of Mike Wallace, it would've sailed 10 yards behind him, because Wallace wasn't tracking the ball until Tannehill threw it.

"KB21 wrote:

His skill set is speed. He brings nothing else to the table. We could have that speed on a much cheaper contract and a player you do not have to change your scheme to fit.

I'll post this again.

Since 2009
Wallace: 35 TD on 509 targets
Fitzgerald: 40 TD on 732 targets
Marshall: 39 TD on 764 targets
A Johnson: 28 TD on 672 targets

List of receivers to average 1000+ yards and 8 TDs the previous 4 years
Wallace
Calvin Johnson
Larry Fitzgerald

Now, since you strongly believe the QB makes the receiver, by default that means you must also believe Wallace should be capable of replicating his overall previous 4 year success if Tannehill allows him to. End of story.

This is all pointless however b/c no matter what Wallace does you'll feel he's not worth the contract b/c you feel it's ALL about the QB and that receivers are basically worthless.

"KB21 wrote:

CK has already proven that Ryan DID NOT throw that ball out of bounds, that it was in fact a poor effort by Mike Wallace to make that catch.

Mike Wallace is exactly what I thought he was prior to coming to Miami, and those of you who continue to want to argue me over this fact simply are doing so because you don't want it to be correct. Deep down, most of you are seeing what you want to see simply because the team paid so much money to get him. I take solace in the fact that I knew this was how it was going to be in this system. I said it before he was signed, and I haven't been proven wrong yet.

This sounds too much like shouright- the whole "prove me wrong" defense. That could easily be done, as your position is that the deep ball issues between RT and Wallace are all on Wallace, if we could get a clip of every deep ball thrown to Wallace this year. Again, the coaches, analysts, fans, writers and Tannehill himself have acknowledged that his deep balls to Wallace just aren't good enough. The film will show that, what we need is a clip of all the throws to put this issue to bed.

"phinsational wrote:

I'll post this again.

Since 2009
Wallace: 35 TD on 509 targets
Fitzgerald: 40 TD on 732 targets
Marshall: 39 TD on 764 targets
A Johnson: 28 TD on 672 targets

List of receivers to average 1000+ yards and 8 TDs the previous 4 years
Wallace
Calvin Johnson
Larry Fitzgerald

Now, since you strongly believe the QB makes the receiver, by default that means you must also believe Wallace should be capable of replicating his overall previous 4 year success if Tannehill allows him to. End of story.

This is all pointless however b/c no matter what Wallace does you'll feel he's not worth the contract b/c you feel it's ALL about the QB and that receivers are basically worthless.

what are you proving with this? this all just noise