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More talk of putrid Run D

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Fin-Omenal, Mar 18, 2014.

  1. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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  2. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Barr shouldn't be in the conversation, this team has enough edge defenders. Dion Jordan should be playing the SOLB position if you wanna go in that kinda direction.
     
    PhinGeneral and Steve-Mo like this.
  3. 54Fins

    54Fins "In Gase we trust"

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    over there
    Too much $$ invested into those LB's for this season. They will play and hopfully someone will bite and trade for one of them after we're out of the playoff race.

    :couch:
     
  4. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Or we could hope one plays better.

    I would expect Wheeler will. I have watched him in the past, always liked him, and he can be very effective if used correctly.

    Also the trade deadline is well before we can be out of the race. Unless we are a steaming pile of turd.
     
  5. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Not much faith in that guy these days.
     
  6. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Misi to MIKE.... Jordan to SAM... and draft either Kony Ealy or Stephon Tuitt as a more appropriate, more scheme-versatile base DE who is stronger against the run and capable of 2-gapping to allow the defensive front to be more multiple than what Vernon allows. That way Jordan can be covered up and have bodies kept off him to allow him and his great athletic ability more opportunities to make plays just as Aldon Smith is afforded by his DE bodyguard Justin Smith. Part of spending high picks and top dollar contracts on players is the ensuing responsibility of making sure you maximize their potential. We moved to draft Jordan. The buck doesn't stop there b/c that alone isn't enough. It's time to maximize that #3 pick by pairing him with a stud DE capable of allowing Dion to shine.

    The cherry on top would be Miami having its own potent NASCAR package with Wake, Jordan, Ealy, and Vernon. Plus it'd ensure the D-line remains the strength of the team, as should be the case. IMO that's enough to make it a first round draft priority.
     
  7. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    I like that line of thinking, we drafted Dion to have an Aldon Smith like impact as a pass rusher. Accommodating that would make sense.

    Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
     
    ToddPhin likes this.
  8. Phoenician Fan

    Phoenician Fan Well-Known Member

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    A DE like Ealy or Tuitt taken that early in the draft is unlikely, but Taylor Hart or Brent Urban later on could happen.

    Hart blew up his pro day, and Urban is still rehabbing I think.
     
  9. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Yup, and to add to that- I'd rather see Dion having an opportunity to play in space and showcase that great athleticism while a 5-tech capable DE is occupying the left tackle for him keeping him clean. That way he can affect the game in more facets and to a greater degree than he could at DE where he'd be engaged with the left tackle the majority of the time. Plus, at DE he'd likely need to gain weight which could potentially hinder his athleticism, and it would limit him to being more of a downhill player with a greater focus on rushing the passer and stopping the run. Why would you wanna do that with a guy who possesses a rare combination of size, speed, and athleticism who can play forward, backward, and side to side? Why limit what he can do on the field?

    What I think could be some amazing forward thinking would be to draft Anthony Barr now so that a year or two from now when Wake is ready to transition to situational pass rush duties, the defense could seamlessly transition to a 3-4 defense that employs an impressive left-right OLB scheme rather than the typical strong side/weak side deal where the linebackers have to flip sides and move around depending on the offensive alignment. That's what San Fran does with Aldon Smith & Ahmad Brooks b/c both linebackers can do it all. Aldon stays on the right, Brooks on the left. If the offensive strong side is to Aldon's side, he becomes the SOLB. If the strong side lines up to Brooks' side, Aldon becomes the WOLB. It makes it all the easier to disguise coverages and allows greater flexibility. Barr & Jordan would make a wicked pair of left-right 34 OLBs that the entire defense could run through. Misi & Ellerbe can be the ILB's. Odrick, Starks, and Mitchell form a capable 3 man front. Vernon would be more than capable of dropping a little weight and being the backup OLB.
     
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  10. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Me and you are thinking a lot on the same level (I would love Barr) and the 3-4 has the potential to be lethal. Not to mention with that shoulder do we really want Dion in a grapple with the LT every play?? I don't. Space is what he needs, and I think Ellerbe could be pretty effective next to Misi as an ILB.

    If we thought any more alike, we would both be banging your sister. :knucks:
     
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  11. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Then that defeats the purpose. The purpose would be to draft a player with the type of flexibility to allow the defensive front to be multiple. That requires an end who can effectively play both off the edge and head up on a tackle. A player of that ability typically requires an early draft pick, and that's not Hart or Urban. If your answer is to draft a standard 5-tech end later on who offers little edge capability, then you're welcoming mediocrity and as such we might as well just stick with what we have. If Jordan moves to SAM as Misi moves to MIKE, then there'd be absolutely nothing "unlikely" about taking Ealy in the 1st or trading up our 2nd for Tuitt.
     
  12. Aquafin

    Aquafin New Member

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    the poor house

    OH you are not planning on making the playoffs next season ? well I cant blame you for thinking that . the only thing that worries me is Joe Philbin's coaching if he doesn't do a better job this next season then we will likely miss the playoffs like you are saying but I feel 100000 percent better knowing Ireland and Mike Sherman are gone .

    its amazing how much better I feel about the Miami dolphins now that the two butt clowns are gone.
     
  13. Richie is that you??? :tongue2:
     
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  14. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I'm not particularly concerned with Lb corps, what does have my attention is losing Soliai and replacing him with a penetrating type of DT, which will probably mean even more running lanes to defend

    I thought Ellerbe and Wheeler, both looked kinda lost tbh, hesitant. I do believe they will improve in yr #2, also think we made a new hole
     
    shula_guy likes this.
  15. I agree on both points. Not having big paul wreaking havoc up the middle worries me. I also am hopefull that both Wheeler and Ellerbee will understand their roles better and show improvement in year 2. Hopefully it will be enough to justify their contracts.
     
  16. scotty_irnbru

    scotty_irnbru Well-Known Member

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    I really liked watching ellerbe play when he was at the ravens in the sb season. He looked excellent. I just hope he's had a transition time and we can see a player do his thing now. I hope we don't draft anyone else here, let the players we have prove their worth.
     
  17. Phoenician Fan

    Phoenician Fan Well-Known Member

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    I don't know what you are thinking about Taylor, but it doesn't sound like you know the player, which isn't surprising because he has been generally ignored and grossly underrated.

    He has played every DL position including NT and standing up as an OLB in his time at Oregon.(3 year starter)
    http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1664845/taylor-hart

    He wasn't able to work out at the combine but just ran a 4.81 40 at his pro day while wowing the scouts in his drills.

    He is also a guy with impeccable character and extremely high IQ, both on field and off.

    He perfectly fits the job description you were discussing and it may actually be a role that he was made for.

    I could easily see him being more successful at this kind of role than either Tuitt or Ealy. Tuitt is obviously headed for a traditional 5-tech role in the NFL and I have serious doubts about Ealy's scheme versatility for a number of reasons.

    Urban is a true engma. It really sucks that he was injured during the senior bowl practices, he was causing a lot of buzz with his length and athleticism. He was expected to impress at the combine. Nine passes defensed in 8 games last year is just ridiculous.
    The J.J. Watt comparisons are inevitable.

    With Urban the issues will probably be durability and motivation. I would expect that physical prowess and scheme versatility would be a strength, but unlike Hart he probably wouldn't be ready for prime time come opening day.
     
  18. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    The good news is you can win in the NFL with poor run defense. Doesn't make it easy, but it's possible. Stopping the pass should still be the priority.
     
  19. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    wow, you really are quite smug and arrogant aren't you. I mentioned in November that Taylor Hart was one of my top 3 favorite closed end prospects. http://www.thephins.com/forums/show...-I-think&p=2217195&highlight=hart#post2217195 So nice try there buddy. It's humorous that your first instinct when anyone disagrees with you about a player is to manufacture ways to denigrate them like this crap above.
    No Hart doesn't perfectly fit it, not even close. Tuitt on the other hand played the role I described his entire time at ND. When has Hart displayed the propensity to be an edge player? He's clearly not at the ability level of Tuitt or Ealy in this regard, and Hart doesn't have interior nickel rushing stud written all over him. If anyone from this trio is most headed for a traditional 5-tech role it's the guy who spent the majority of his time doing so while rarely playing outside the tackle [Hart], and if anyone is most headed for a Calais Campbell/JJ Watt type hybrid jumbo DE role with enough athleticism and ability to play off the edge, it's Tuitt who notched 40.5 combined sacks and pressures the past two years and actually spent a decent bit of time wider than the tackle. Hart on the other hand had just 13.5 combined sacks and pressures the past two years. Ealy had 24.5 [15.5 this season alone] and also notched 13 passes defended.

    I could care less about a 5-tech who can also play DT and NT like you're suggesting with Hart. It's a passing league dude. I care about having either a 5-tech who can also line up off the edge without being a liability [like Tuitt] or a 4-3 DE with the potential to also play 5-technique [like Ealy]. Hart has some versatility and will probably be a decent player, however, he isn't the type of top flight prospect who jumps out at you as representing the final piece to a great defensive line. The way you're defending him here you'd think he were a top 10 pick. On a great defense he's a backup or rotational player who probably wont see the field in nickel defense. Tuitt & Ealy on the other hand are likely three down players on a great defense who offer plus ability as interior nickel rushers.

    Tuitt vs Hart. Tuitt spent much of his healthy 2012 season at 5-tech and wider, meanwhile Hart spent the majority at 5-tech and in. As the videos below clearly illustrate, it's not even a discussion regarding who is a better fit as a jumbo 4-3 DE.
    [video=youtube;81FGd9wwuro]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=81FGd9wwuro[/video]
    [video=youtube;0HQJsjCq6nc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0HQJsjCq6nc[/video]

    Urban isn't close to JJ Watt, and I think you're delusional if you believe Hart would actually step in as a reliable starter from opening day.
     
  20. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    That works for teams who can score lots of points and force teams to pass. If you're scoring 19-21 ppg then you'll be foocked with that strategy.
     
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  21. Phoenician Fan

    Phoenician Fan Well-Known Member

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    Ealy has, BUST, written all over him. Wait and see. He is a speed rusher without speed.

    You are just flat out wrong about Taylor Hart. He has the length,athleticism, and smarts to handle sliding outside in the NFL.

    And wow, man, take your meds; all I am saying is that I disagree about your assesment of Taylor Hart. Then you overreact to the extreme and start with the vicious personal attack stuff again.

    Whats up? Problems at home?
     
  22. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Good thing no one is looking at Ealy as a speed rusher. He's a prototypical 4-3 strong side end who can slide inside in nickel and create an abundance of chaos on par with Michael Bennett. He's Ziggy Ansah with a better first two steps but without Ansah's ridiculous pursuit speed beyond ten yards. And no, Ealy does not have bust written all over him. If you see "bust", it's within the confines of your own imagination.

    It's pretty straight forward the type of player Ealy is. It's not smoke and mirrors like Aaron Maybin. Ealy's success doesn't hinge on a single facet of the game like a weakside speed rusher's does, so his bust potential is significantly lower than the heavily dramatic fashion in which you portray it. If you wanna isolate his interior nickel rushing potential, he's far from a bust. In fact he looks like a future stud. As a run stopper, there's nothing to suggest he can't handle his own or that he looks like a potential bust. He's 6'5 275 for cryin' out loud and plays at least that big and could handle some 5-tech duties. As an edge player he has more than enough ability to be productive for a strong side end, not forgetting that he'll be spending a third of his time at nickel DT.

    Being able to handle sliding outside and doing so at a level consistent with that of a starter on a great D are two different things. You should learn to discern the two.
     
  23. Phoenician Fan

    Phoenician Fan Well-Known Member

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    You should admit that expecting the Dolphins to spend a 1st round pick or trade up in the second to take a huge chance on a couple of players who are far from sure things and play positions that we already have starters at, IS patently absurd!

    And as far as Ealy is concerned, he is a lardass. He ran a 4.92 at the combine and his advisors have told him not to run at his pro day. Why? Obviously they are afraid he will run a 5.0 forty and screw his draft status.

    He will probably slide into the 2nd round and go to the Jags and never be heard from again.

    Now man up a little, ok.....don't freak out and start denigrating me, we all have a right to our opinions; and my opinion is that Kony Ealy sucks! and for the Dolphins defense I wouldn't draft him anywhere.
     
  24. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    Trey Millard, FB
     
  25. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Even then, by far and away the biggest issue in the run game is the play of the true linebackers- Wheeler and Ellerbe. Barr's not really going to play that position.
     
  26. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Yeah you'll have to excuse me if I lend no credence in your silly opinion over my own established one, especially when you sound like a knucklehead for making this comment. Firstly, labeling Ealy and Tuitt as being "far from sure things" is what's patently absurd, especially after you talked up Taylor Hart over them who is even further from a sure thing as a hybrid 4-3 end. Secondly, if Dion Jordan happens to move to SAM, then it's pretty ignorant to think the starting RDE position would be unequivocally locked down by Olivier Vernon who, for all we know, could be perceived by our new GM as schematically not the most ideal fit for the job, especially after the hit our run defense took last year. Thirdly, Cam Wake is 32, and it often takes a rookie defensive end a couple years to hit his groove. Smart GMs will often use that tidbit of knowledge to draft for future needs if the value presents itself, but why would I expect a simpleton to understand such complicated stuff. Fourthly, you can never have too many pass rushers. Maybe you should tell Seattle how patently absurd they are to hoard pressure players like candles for a hurricane. Honestly, if there's a way to get your opinions tested for disease, you should probably book that visit ASAP.
     
  27. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Yup, Ealy is such a slow lard *** that he ran THE FASTEST 3-CONE TIME of all D linemen the past 9 YEARS!!!!!.... you know- the drill that's significantly more pertinent to a defensive end than how long it takes him to run forty yards. Now, do I need to list all the top defensive ends Ealy is faster than, or do you think you can figure it out on your own using the process of elimination?

    To put it into perspective: Kony Ealy- 6.83. LeSean McCoy- 6.82.
    Further perspective since you love forty times so much: Ealy- 6.83. Mr 4.26 forty Dri Archer- 6.86.

    Let's do some more just for fun.
    Ealy: 6.83... Sammy Watkins: 6.95
    Ealy: 6.83... De'Anthony Thomas: 6.95
    Ealy: 6.83... LaMichael James: 6.88
    Ealy: 6.83... Lache Seastrunk: 6.81
    Ealy: 6.83... Jamaal Charles: 6.80


    PRO DAY UPDATE: AWWW, what a kick in the nuts for you--> Ealy ran a 4.57 today, so what was that you were saying there genius? Nothing? Crickets? That's what I thought. :console:
     
  28. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    No but he helps transitions Misi to Mike, then Ellerbe slides to Sam.
     

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