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NASA: 2 Trillion Tons of Ice Have Melted Since 2003

Discussion in 'Science & Technology' started by Celtkin, Dec 16, 2008.

  1. Celtkin

    Celtkin <B>Webmaster</b> Luxury Box

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    FOXNews.com - NASA: 2 Trillion Tons of Ice Have Melted Since 2003 - Science News | Science & Technology | Technology News




    Brrr
     
  2. CrunchTime

    CrunchTime Administrator Retired Administrator

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    Dont buy any properties close to the sea.:wink2:

    The economic crisis may put the global warming problem in the backburner.:sad:
     
  3. cnc66

    cnc66 wiley veteran, bad spelur Luxury Box

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    Dr. Ricky Rood, who blogs at Weather Underground has a ton of information in his climate series. If this subject interests you at all, you should probably peruse this index.

    Wunderground Blogs From Openclimate



    Here is a temperature graph that would support the melt;

    Justifying Climate Science:


    [​IMG]

    Here are some blogs relating to surface melt;

    The comments associated with these blogs are worth the peruse also.
     
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  4. Celtkin

    Celtkin <B>Webmaster</b> Luxury Box

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    Thanks brother. I posted the same data from the NOAA a couple times along with pictures of melting glaciers, ice caps, etc yet we still get the occasional "the earth has been cooling for the past _______ years". I've been conducting my own experiments here at home. I keep lowering the temperature in my freezer to see if my ice melts. So far, no luck.
     
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  5. cnc66

    cnc66 wiley veteran, bad spelur Luxury Box

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    snort.. I look forward to your paper
     
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  6. unluckyluciano

    unluckyluciano For My Hero JetsSuck

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    obviously its so cold, its hot. duh.
     
  7. cnc66

    cnc66 wiley veteran, bad spelur Luxury Box

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    I am of the opinion that the ice melt we are seeing is going to be dramatically worse than many predict. I think the sea levels will rise much quicker than expected and some very hard decisions will have to be made as to saving many major cities. With that in mind, you younger fellas could make some prescient land purchases that could make your descendants very wealthy. Here is a sea level risk map of Florida. Here is a link that will let you enlarge the image for better perusal.

    sea level risks

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Arctic ice regrows in different regions of the same ice cluster. Meanwhile, 2008 global temperatures are down 1/10th of one degree compared to 2007.

    Perhaps NASA could venture to New Orleans and collect some of the inch-plus of snow that fell, then shovel it onto the glaciers.
     
  9. Celtkin

    Celtkin <B>Webmaster</b> Luxury Box

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    Quoting from Marty's article
    Brrr
     
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  10. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Let's say there is a natural ebb & flow of global temperatures. Would you not agree that sometimes that ebb & flow peaks further than normal? Essentially, do the temperatures not get higher or lower sometimes?

    If so, end of story time to be concerned. Who cares at this point if its natural or caused by man.
     
  11. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Without all the other years how can we make a conclusion? I'm not saying you're wrong celt, but what if 2007 is the hottest year ever, or 2006, and its coming back from it?

    From your link in the comments:

    [​IMG]

    I am a novice to this area so I'm just throwing that out there, not proclaiming it as at the end all be all.

    What is the weather underground anyway, is that Bill Ayers' group? :lol:
     
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  12. Celtkin

    Celtkin <B>Webmaster</b> Luxury Box

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    Marty posted the recorded data from the late 1800's to 2008. The data is averaged (half of the temperatures above and half below the line) and clearly shows higher than average temperatures of late. Add that to the fact that ice is melting over the same period, it is not unreasonable to interpret a cause and effect relationship.
     
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  13. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Duh. The graphic is staring me right in the face :D Told You i isn't no expert.

    But I think both of you guys are right. First, it is still pretty warm historically, second, it's cooling.
     
  14. cnc66

    cnc66 wiley veteran, bad spelur Luxury Box

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    Maybe you could go follow one of those links I posted which discusses this sort of issue and stop the smarmy stuff Desides. If you cannot participate by addition then perhaps you should leave the thread.
     
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  15. FinSane

    FinSane Cynical Dolphins Fan

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    i dont see why its not plausible man could speed up the effect of natural warming cycles?
     
  16. cnc66

    cnc66 wiley veteran, bad spelur Luxury Box

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    One of the possibilities that exist with some weight is this. We are in a solar cooling cycle but the raised co2 levels have counteracted the event for the moment. We could be in a mini ice age right now but for our contributions. Remember, there is zero doubt that we are losing ice worlwide, an interesting note on that is there is a camp that suggests that the melting could also trigger cooling by interuption of the global ocean currents. We are warming yet much evidence is out there that our overall total solar energy added has declined.

    It doesn't matter who or what causes it, the fact remains that you younger guys will se some changes worldwide in temperature and sea levels in your lifetime. You will have hard decisions on what to do with our coastal cities. I'm telling you, there is major money to be had by forward thinking people.
     
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  17. unluckyluciano

    unluckyluciano For My Hero JetsSuck

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    Thats pretty much my take on it.

    Are you saying to buy future beach front property :lol:
     
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  18. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    I did. My previous post was my response. Global cooling cannot cause global warming.

    As for glaciers: I have no doubt that there are melting glaciers in the (ant)arctic. What does not get reported or otherwise publicized is that glaciers simultaneously add new ice. The net effect is that worldwide glacier coverage is actually increasing, because the new additions more than make up for the melting. I've posted data on this multiple times in this subforum, and it gets ignored or outright derided.
     
  19. Celtkin

    Celtkin <B>Webmaster</b> Luxury Box

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    Ice is melting at a greater rate than it is forming. Recorded temperatures from 1880 to present show an upward trend.

    The ball is in your court. Review the RECORDED temperatures and tell me that temperatures are not rising.

    Your claim that ice melt is only in Antarctica proves yet again that you have not read the data. If you are not willing to read the scientific reports, your 'opinion' is suspect and your sarcasm is not appreciated.
     
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  20. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Maybe the ice he's talking about is in Las Vegas. Its snowing! And it's freaking cold here in San Diego. Brrr .... (I'm just bitter because I hate rain and cold)

    Celt, do you have figures for the net loss in ice melt? I tried to google but am coming up short. I notice that Alaska is mentioned, but in this article they just experienced for the first time in their recorded history, an ice expansion (for 200 years or so ice has melted).
    Bad weather was good for Alaska glaciers: Environment | adn.com

    In Scandinavia, ice has also been growing.
    Isbreene vokser igjen - Nyheter - NRK Nyheter
    Can't read Scandinavian? Me neither. I read it on Dailytech :D

    Recorded temperatures has been rising since 1880 (also cooling since for the past few years as well). But isn't there another way to look at it? If we had a little ice age that ended in 1850 or so, wouldn't that mean that when the temperatures came back to the mean, it would appear to be warming? Or has the temp shot through the mean completely. Looking for more sources (at work ...) since I'm now intrigued.

    I'm all for conservation etc., but can't decide which side of the science fence I'm on. I'm more interested in wildlife and habitat conservation.
     
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  21. Celtkin

    Celtkin <B>Webmaster</b> Luxury Box

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    There was an earlier where we had a discussion about glaciers -- ones that are growing and why and the majority that are melting due to increased temperatures. Here is one post in particular:

    http://forums.thephins.com/science-...g-arctic-clearly-linked-study.html#post269328

    Here is the parent thread:

    http://forums.thephins.com/science-...ange-melting-arctic-clearly-linked-study.html

    Our last ice age ended between 10-15 thousand years ago:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_glaciation

    I have little doubt that a decrease in sun spot activity and perhaps entering into a new glacial period can be responsible for the cooling trend we saw last year and perhaps this one as well but the point I am making is that the charted temperature rise and ice melt are related.
     
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  22. jason8er

    jason8er Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    There is almost as much turmoil in the literature as there is in Greenland itself.

    One study says that there is so much more ice build up above 1500m than what is melting below 1500m, that there is actually a net gain of 5.4cm of ice annually (about 2 inches). This would suggest that Greenland is sucking up more "Chesapeakes" out of the ocean than its losing, wouldn't it?.

    Another study says there is so much loss of ice, the decending water is speeding up the ice sheet towards the ocean.

    And yet another study counters the last by saying that it is just a "transient summertime event", and over the long term, there is no increase in the rate of movement.

    You could get whiplash reading this stuff.
     
  23. jason8er

    jason8er Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    I'd say that's a given. :lol:

    But there are exceptions.

    Besides the ones that are growing, there are also glaciers that are retreating, but not actually melting. This is due to decreased precipitation, kinda like those ice cubes that shrunk cause they were left in the freezer too long.

    The glacier on Mt Kilimanjaro is a prime example. It never sees temperatures above freezing, but high winds and lack of snowfall have been shrinking it since before Hemingway even wrote about it.
     
  24. jason8er

    jason8er Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    BTW - Where are these 20+ ft sea level rises in just a few decades coming from? Other than blogs, or Al Gore? The last time the oceans rose at that rate, was at the end of the last ice age when huge ice sheets covering a significant portion of the Earth were all melting.

    The IPCC's intermediate assessment has the oceans rising about 8 inches in the next 100 years. Its most catastrophic assessment says 23 inches in 100 years.

    The oceans had been rising 3mm per year. Since 2005, that rate is down 30% to 2mm. New trend? Or just a speed bump? The debate should be fun.
     
  25. Celtkin

    Celtkin <B>Webmaster</b> Luxury Box

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    Brother, what percentage of glaciers are growing? By most accounts, the number is vanishingly small.
     
  26. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I was talking about the little ice age. :)

    In any event, I know the evidence seems overwhelming. But when scientists a billion times smarter than me in these subjects tell Congress they're skeptical. Well, shoot I don't know which side to sit on. I'll tell you in 50 years ... if I'm alive ... and San Diego isn't under a few feet of water.
     
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  27. unluckyluciano

    unluckyluciano For My Hero JetsSuck

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    The little ice age is believe to have been caused by less activity on the surface of the sun from what I remember. The same amount of activty or lack there of we are experiencing now. That is what cnc was touching on. It would make sense that the sun is currently driving the temperature down thus countering the effects we saw up into this point believe to be caused by global warming.
    As for the scientist, their job is to be sceptical. So those that are sceptical are just doing their job really. Does not mean the theory can not be true, or it is disproved, just that their are some holes in the theory, some questions, etc....
     
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  28. jason8er

    jason8er Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    I don't think anyone really knows Mal. Check this out:

    (sorry no link, this is from an email)

    So really, they could be adding ice more than we know of, or they could be losing much more mass than we thought too.

    I know Antarctica's ice sheet (7 times bigger than Greenland and 100 times bigger than all the worlds glaciers combined) is the #1 supply of the worlds fresh water, and is packing on so much ice now that research stations have had to be rebuilt because the old ones are now under 50ft or more of ice.

    These transmission towers are 30ft high now. They used to be 115ft high.

    [​IMG]


    The Southern Patagonia Ice Fields are said to be growing too. I believe that is the worlds 3rd largest fresh water supply. In that area, Argentina's Perito Moreno Glacier is growing as is Chile's Pio XI Glacier, the largest glacier in the southern hemisphere.

    All 48 of New Zealands glaciers are growing too.

    I think its safe to say that the southern hemisphere is trying to make up for the warming in the north. :wink2:
     
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  29. FinSane

    FinSane Cynical Dolphins Fan

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    polar shift?
     
  30. jason8er

    jason8er Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    I don't understand why its okay to say that the sun's lower output can be blamed for global cooling, but that its not okay to say that an increased output warms us. Saying that the sun is now counteracting global warming is like saying the sun is canceling out itself.

    As you can see from the graph below (on the left), temperatures over the last 100+ years (the years people are freaking out about), stayed in lock-step with the sun's activities - up and down.

    [​IMG]

    The same cannot be said about Co2 on the right.


    Here is another amazing study showing temperatures staying in lock-step with the suns output going back a half a billion years. What the sun did, Earth's temperatures did.

    [​IMG]

    This study has one of the highest degrees of certainty I've seen yet in the whole GW debate. And saying that it's okay to blame the sun for cooling, but not warming when there is overwhelming data to the contrary, just sounds unbelievable.


    Now this I like to hear, thank you. This is how it should have been handled from the get-go, but it wasn't. Now that hundreds more are coming out as skeptics each year, they are no longer called, "holocaust deniers" or "Flat Earthers".
     
  31. jason8er

    jason8er Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    Oh man, there is a TON of talk about this right now. Some is good, but some is outrageous. I love the theory about Earth suddenly shifting on its axis in 2012. I have visions of suddenly being flung up in the air, and landing two states away. If we're lucky, I'll land on Nick Saban. :up:
     
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  32. Celtkin

    Celtkin <B>Webmaster</b> Luxury Box

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    Thanks for the information, Jason. I found some recent news that seems to contradict your source's claim that the Antarctic seems to be unaffected by warming.
    The rest of the story and pictures at at the link below:

    Antarctic Ice Shelf Disintegration Underscores a Warming World

    Here's more links about Antarticia

    Antarctic glaciers melting more quickly

    Greenland, Antarctica, and Alaska melt at accelerating pace &mdash; Plenty Magazine

    Millennia of Melting: New Research Confirms Antarctic Thaw Fears - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

    And here is recent report from CNN about New Zealand's glaciers


    Scientist: New Zealand glacier shrinking fast

    Country's biggest glacier said to be melting at fastest rate in recent history


    Here's a nice video from the same page

    msnbc.com Video Player

    Here are more confirmations about New Zealand's glaciers

    Glaciers shrinking in Southern Alps - National - NZ Herald News

    Scoop: New Zealand Glaciers Shrinking

    I know there were a few glaciers I believe in Norway that were gaining ice and/or not losing ice. Did you mean Norway?
     
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  33. Celtkin

    Celtkin <B>Webmaster</b> Luxury Box

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    I don't think there is much skepticism about rising temperatures. They'd have to be idiots to look at the recorded temperatures and say that it's not happening. I believe the debate is about the cause of the warming.
     
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  34. cnc66

    cnc66 wiley veteran, bad spelur Luxury Box

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    I was reading earlier that a large portion of the ice along the eastern side of Antartica is below sealevel and very suceptible to the warming ocean. This won't necessarily create a large change in sea level since a great deal of the weight is already supported by water but this loss could radically accelerate everything on land moving seaward.

    Be careful the dates on what you read, much of it is dated.
     
  35. unluckyluciano

    unluckyluciano For My Hero JetsSuck

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    Who said that? I'm pretty sure the sun is a factor. Now how much is that factor magnified by the co2, methane is the question as well as how much of a factor is the sun.

    From a year ago about:
    link

    And here is a link to the original paper. I just started reading it:
    link
     
  36. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Of all the people in the world (including very beautiful Dolphins cheerleaders) you choose Nick Saban? :tongue2:

    Celt. That's what I mean, temperatures can be measured. There is no debating the temps (well actually there is, I have heard of ballot stuffing when it comes to temp readings ...) but the cause of global warming. And then the recent cooling as well.

    You can sit down two scientists, and each will present their side, and I'll think both have compelling arguments. Until San Diego is under water, I'll take a wait and see.

    Now, that doesn't mean I'm advocating waste and what not. There are plenty of good reasons to go green and just be cleaner. And stop with the habitat destruction would ya? There are a lot of critters in the world I enjoy watching documentaries on.
     
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  37. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Ok, to illustrate how stupid I am, could someone explain to me this graph?
    [​IMG]

    Ok, you see, I would think, with less activity, you'd see less Cosmic Ray count. But this article unlucky put up, says that with less solar activity, you see MORE Cosmic Ray count. How is that so?

    While googling cosmic ray count, taking care not to hit any sci fi sites, I came across this article which says the BBC article, is not what the authors say it is.

    Global Warming Science and Public Policy - A Critique on the Lockwood/Frochlich Paper in the Royal Society Proceedings

    Catfight! See I'm not well versed in science but I can use google like a mofo!

    If the second article author is correct, is the first paper/article an example of an accountant telling their client, 2 + 2 = whatever it is they want it to equal?
     
  38. unluckyluciano

    unluckyluciano For My Hero JetsSuck

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    Heres another link in case you don't trust the BBC article:

    link
     
  39. jason8er

    jason8er Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    This was the point of my original post. There is as much conflict in the literature as there is in the regions we are discussing. As conditions change back and forth from year to year, we go from dooms day predictions to rosy conditions and back again. Like I said before, you could get whiplash reading this stuff.

    Most of the melt in Antarctica is on the western peninsula, where scientists know there is ALOT of volcanic activity now.

    Here is a chart of Antarctic volcanoes, followed by, not air, but surface temps. A very interesting comparison.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    There is a legit connection here between volcanic activity and the recent warming, and they are studying it.

    One theory I recently read said that the warmer coastline (as you can see from that sat pic) is causing more precipitation to dump inland (this is kinda like the way they are trying to explain glacier growth in the western Himalayas). Hence reports of a thickening inland ice sheet, and studies showing Antarctica lowering sea levels .08mm annually (a little misleading I think, as they should say that sea levels rose by that much less :shifty:).
    http://www.cpom.org/research/djw-ptrsa364.pdf


    These reports are about the loss of the finger or tongue of the glaciers at lower altitudes. Which is clearly happening. Except for the Fox and Fanz Josef glaciers where local guides say are still advancing down their valleys. Reports I saw were of fairly recent record accumulation up at the heads of the glaciers.


    No, I did mean NZ, although my data is only up to 2006.

    As far as Norway goes, yeah, I saw that too.
    DailyTech - Glaciers in Norway Growing Again


    Glaciers grow in Alaska
    DailyTech - Alaskan Glaciers Grow for First Time in 250 years
    BTW- I wish more people would start paying attention to when these glaciers started melting. 250 years ago? Isn't that like....1759?

    Mt. Logan’s ice pack in Canada grows
    Canada's highest peak growing, researcher finds

    There is Glacier growth in the western U.S.A too. 7 Mt. Shasta glaciers, Nisqually Glacier, Mt Shuksan, and…….what!?!......Mt St. Helens!??????

    This is just unreal. The new glacier in Mt St Helens’ crater is in close proximity to a lava dome that has been described as being “hot enough to boil water”. What’s next…..the Dolphins make the playoffs?
    New Glacier Forming in the Crater


    Supposedly, glaciers on Mt Blanc in France are growing at the higher altitudes too.

    Now I'm not saying there's no melting going on either here, so don't get me wrong. I saw a good study showing melting ice is adding .05mm of sea level rise annually, and the oceans are rising so.........
     
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  40. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Hmm. Well we were creating greenhouse gases back then too, no? Farting cows?

    Excellent post jason. I'm learning so much just reading the discussion. In that Antarctic picture, I notice it is also warming not on land but on the water to the right of the pic with no corresponding volcanoes.
     

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