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Need REAL Advice

Discussion in 'Lounge' started by KeyFin, Aug 17, 2017.

Do I kick my kid out for good?

  1. Yup

  2. Nope

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  1. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I can't believe I'm posting this here but I'm pissed off and frustrated, so here we go. The question is simple- do I kick my kid out or not?

    I have an 18 year old with borderline personality disorder. To give you the low-down, people with that condition are highly manipulative, susceptible to depression, extreme mood swings, etc. Sort of like bi-bolar in a way, but yet always trying to be in control and often destroying the relationships closest to them with self-destructive behavior.

    I tried to be objective there with a medical-like diagnosis- my personal definition would be a tornado spawned by Satan. That's what it feels like. Our kid lies to us continually, threatens us if we ask her to do anything (run away, suicide, hurting herself, etc), and makes it impossible to have a normal household. She sleeps all day, never lifts a finger to help around the house, disappears in the afternoon/night, then lies about the whole thing and flips the blame back on us for calling her a liar.

    In some ways, she's delusional like a spoiled elitist kid would be- only we're strictly hard working middle class.

    Meanwhile, doctors say that borderline personality is not treated with drugs- it's 100% behavioral therapy and learning to deal with the swing of emotions. Our kid will put in zero work (mentally or physically) to help herself and because she's so volatile, her only friends are other seriously messed up people. She gets around them and they bring her way down....before long she ends up in a mental hospital for about a week. They give her drugs to stabilize her and send her on her way.....this is a cycle we've done every 2-3 months for the past 3 years.

    The therapists around her are horrible as well- she completely plays them like the movie "Good Will Hunting". She'll talk for months and convince the therapists that she's completely normal....which she can be if she tries. The few that are actually effective, she refuses to see because she can't manipulate them. So trying to get help is pointless.

    I had a heart attack about 9 months ago and almost died at 43, partially due to all the stress and constantly trying to deal with my kid. My wife has been on long-term leave from work on and off for almost a year now since our kid will do everything wrong and then wake my wife up at 3 AM to talk....this only happens on nights she's supposed to work early the next morning though. If my wife gets fired, we have no insurance...and I'm 9 months out from heart surgery. I should be in the gym getting back in shape but 100% of my time is working from home, calming down my wife or dealing with our daughter's destructive behavior.

    Friends? Fun? Hobbies? Normal work schedule? Forget about it- I barely get to leave the house. These days, you folks are essentially my only friends I might talk to more than once a week. My wife and I gave up on those types of relationships years ago because of our kid. If we plan anything, the phone rings within an hour of some emergency we have to drop everything for. I write for a living and half the time, I'll be up to 5AM waiting on my kid to show up and finally getting to work in a quiet house. Every single day is filled with BS drama.

    I have a 16 year old as well that is honestly neglected completely- luckily she's an awesome, super balanced kid. She may get 5% of our attention at most and it's completely unfair. Whenever my 18 year old is out of the house, it is almost unbelievable how normal everything feels instantly....it's like stepping into an alien world or something compared to what we're used to.

    In other words, I'm killing myself and neglecting the rest of my family for a kid that doesn't give a crap about us or anything other than living in the moment. She acts like she hates us and tells people I'm the devil because I push hard to do what every doctor has told her to do...yet she does the exact opposite. If we try to talk to her about anything, it's like starting WW III in our living room- she throws tantrums like a 5 year old would until she gets her way.

    For example, she threatened to become a prostitute two nights ago if I didn't give her $50 for a tattoo...she wanted it right that second and there was no discussion around the topic without her becoming irate. When I said no, her response was that we've always hated her and go out of our way to destroy her- there's absolutely no logic or common sense involved. That's how she is- demands on the spot and huge mood swings/consequences if we don't comply. Hell, she's tried suicide twice now because we told her to clean her room.

    I always say no because we're just enabling her if we agree, but my wife gives in way too much (because that's what mom's do). My wife is the real victim here because she's basically living like a slave to this kid's demands 24/7...she's too kind and loving to say no most of the time. And our kid knows that so she mentally abuses the hell out of my wife- the kid is way smarter and good at being evil (I tested at a 164 to 172 IQ as an adult and the 16 year old tested a 162 in 8th grade. Not sure where the 18 year old would score but I'd guess it's at least borderline genius as well. Mom has an average IQ so she's kinda screwed in that regard).

    On most levels, it's destroyed our marriage because not even a single minute of our lives can be about us anymore. There's always some life-changing drama just waiting to unfold at a moment's notice. I'm just so ridiculously stuck and I want to scream.

    Anyway, sorry for the rant but it felt good...so I guess I'm not sorry after all. The kid has been kicked out a few times already for short periods of time (once to grandmas house for a month, once for 4 days to a random guy's house). We want to "save her" but we have absolutely no way to do that without her giving it some effort, and she definitely won't even consider that.

    So there is no "magic answer" here- the kid has to grow up and stop being such a spoiled little ***** towards us. That's why I'm asking just one simple question- do I finally toss her out or not?
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2017
  2. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Wow, this is a no win situation and I truly feel for you and the rest of your family in this case.

    Has she tried to get a job? Does she have a plan for her life? I know one of the symptoms of BPA is constant feelings of rejection from others, rather justified or not.

    I want to tell you to put your foot down and make her leave the nest.....but as a father I realize it is not that easy.
     
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  3. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Are you and your wife seeing a doctor for yourselves or have you looked into support groups for parents with children with similar issues?
     
  4. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    As an empathy-less robot, I definitely say kick her out. Your mental and physical health seems like it will improve, and if she improves herself/grows up then you win by gaining a real member to your family back, and if she doesn't grow up, at least it is no longer a problem dragging you down.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
  5. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, she works at a local restaurant and she's by far their best employee- will come in early, stay late, and work any job. Super hard worker everywhere but at home- but she blows every penny of her paycheck as soon as she gets it. Hasn't paid us a dime in bills for at least 6 months, so we cut off everything but her cell (and the cell stays on so we can track her). Not that we care about the money part, but she's not responsible yet at all.

    Her plan is to become a registered nurse and she has everything plotted out- except for getting started. I think that's typical for 18 year olds though.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
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  6. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    My wife is a shell of her former self these days, but she's only talked to her regular doctor about it. I don't think she wants to admit that we all need counseling....if for nothing else than to do what I just did here and vent.

    I handle it pretty well most of the time and my best therapy is just going to be focusing on me and getting back in shape. I just need to do it and stop letting the daily drama knock me off course.
     
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  7. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I'm not in anyway saying I understand what you're going through, but I was my dad's primary caregiver for a few years when he became paralyzed. It was only a few years and he was just my dad and not my kid, but I should have gotten counseling. Considering how much less that was then what you guys are going through, you really need to get help for yourselves.

    The better off you two are mentally, the better you'd be able to help your child. If there is a support group, there may be lessons and tips that can help you. Even just knowing there's others who understand can help.
     
  8. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    That's crazy - as a newish father, mental issues like this are second only to a potential death as fear. I have absolutely no health/therapy background, but just based on what you said, something needs to change asap before you flat out die. What good are you to your wife and "good" child if you die in another month from the stress? What if your wife is fixing to have one as well from it? What will your "bad" child do if you pass on?

    And while "good" child may be awesome, it has to be incredibly hard to basically be ignored.

    Do what's best for your family, sometimes that might be excising a part of it. I could not agree more with the people saying to get professional help for you and the wife, and to join a support group. You need advice of both medical professionals and those who have gone through the specifics. Fire up the ol' Google and get cracking. Those are the best suited to helping make a real and informed decision.

    Also, have you consulted more than 1 doctor for potential medical treatments? If something doesn't work, try something else.
     
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  9. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    I think you should truly get to the gym, sorta as a first step to all of this. That is unquestionably some solid therapy for yourself, however do not forget about the other two people who have to deal with this as well.

    In still not sure kicking her out is the best solution, but I certainly would consider taking the necessary steps to make it change for the better.

    Crossing my fingers for ya, brother.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  10. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    The "good" kid is in band and has a great group of friends, plus she's usually gone on the weekend with our church group or family. So she's pretty busy most of the time. We have a great relationship with her- just a super cool, balanced kid...but this does affect her too. She's basically been bullied her entire life by her older sister.

    We have seen over a half dozen doctors though and mental health is broken in this country. Psychiatrists just hand our medicine- they don't treat. Psychologists are near impossible to get an appointment with (without paying huge money out of pocket) since they do the actual work. So you really have to find a counselor that can see through the BS and most of them can't- they're fresh out of school and spend their entire sessions focusing on the problems this minute instead of the overall cause that keeps the cycle going.

    For instance, a recent one was an employee that she works with was in an abusive relationship. My kid has a knack for finding these people and becoming intertwined in their lives. So her whole focus was on this person and she's freaking out 24/7 that the spouse was going to kill the co-worker...until we helped the girl return home to her parents in another state. Now she's depressed because the girl is gone and she's hanging out with other degenerate types- it's like she sees the bad in people and latches on to live their drama. I caught her in our pool at 3 AM the other night with a young married guy who wants to leave his pregnant wife. She couldn't see that the guy was a typical 22 year old just trying to get laid- the drama just drew her right in and nothing else mattered in that moment. For a smart person, she's a complete idiot.

    All the doctors/counselors have said the same thing though- she needs to step up and fight this head-on. She just won't do it and gets sucked into the depression and loser friends- there's always life-changing drama to find if you're looking for it 24/7. What she doesn't realize is that it devastates everyone around her (including herself) because she can't handle it mentally- which leads to us taking the brunt of her anger/frustration.
     
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  11. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    You're right- we need to make time for ourselves and just do it....even though the kid will find a way to sabotage our plans. That's the hardest part of all this- we need to stop being victims inside our own home. It's so much easier said than done though.
     
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  12. eltos_lightfoot

    eltos_lightfoot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Keyfin, I am so sorry you and your family are going through all that. I would just echo getting counseling for the rest of you at least. I went through a rough patch and even seeing a good psychologist once really helped. (You are right though, tried to offer me ADHD drugs, I politely declined...) Unfortunately my own daughters are still in the single digits (barely), so I am only versed up to that age of child. :( I do know that "tough love" is easy parenting advice to give until it is your child, so I am not going to say that will be easy. Just hang in there, my man! I am many, many states away (SD), but know we are all thinking and praying for you guys!

    I see the dilemma though, she sounds like if she ever really got it together she could do amazing things! RN does sound like a way she could get her daily drama fix, I hope she gets serious about pursuing it...
     
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  13. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Can she be temporarily institutionalized? Those facilities have the ability to force the patients to take their meds.

    Here's one site I found.
    https://www.nami.org/Learn-More/Mental-Health-Conditions/Borderline-Personality-Disorder/Support

    Midway down the page there's an actual discussion going on about parents with a 17 yr old daughter with BPD.

    There has to be some resources in or near your area that you and your wife can go to, to get support for yourselves. You both have the ability to help your daughter you just need to heal yourselves first. You guys are trying to carry her with broken arms. Heal the arms, then you can do it.
     
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  14. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    The way the system basically works is that if she threatens suicide AND has a plan in mind (for example, I'm going to jump off a bridge), then they will immediately place her in a program for 3-7 days. The other option is if she threatens to do harm to someone else...same thing. For any other situation, it had to be mandated by a judge.

    The best psychologist we've seen so far straight up said to just lie whenever we think she needs help. The last time he kept her for 9 days, insurance made him send her home, but he asked us to pull off hospital grounds and then pull right back into the ER to say she threatened us. Then he could take her for 9 more days without all the hoops to jump through- that's how broken the system is. It's not about helping the patient at all and the few who really do care are crippled by the system. So most just focus on stabilizing for the moment, having a few days of good talk and then sending the person on their way.

    My kid refuses to see that particular psychologist though because he's just awesome and you can't play him- he reminds me of Carrothead...the guy is piss your pants funny. It is impossible to make him mad and that drives my kid crazy.

    I appreciate the link- I stumbled onto the NAMI site this morning as well. It looks like they meet monthly in my area, but there's enough chapters semi-nearby that we could go weekly to different spots. We're going to try a meeting next Monday I think to see how it goes.
     
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  15. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Good luck to you and your family. We can't help the cards we're dealt only how we play them and the fact that you and your wife have done this for so long and are still willing to keep up the fight means you're playing the cards the best way possible.

    Keep up the fight but take care of yourselves too.
     
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  16. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

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    Good grief. Just reading through the thread, you and your wife deserve a medal for dealing with this bs. And you absolutely need to take care of yourself. Join a gym, a rec league of some kind, something you enjoy. Same for your wife.

    What caused her to become this way and how long has it been going on for?
    Was it always this bad or has it gotten worse and if it's gotten worse how so?
     
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  17. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    She was always a little different- I can remember a birthday party when she was like 8- the group of little girls all got mad at one particular girl and my younger one- they all started being mean to them. There were about 15 little girls total and I got them all together, telling them how we're all there to have fun and it's not nice hurting anyone's feelings. Afterwards, every kid there hugged and apologized except for my daughter- she stayed angry and laser-focused on what the other girl did wrong. And she held the grudge for the rest of the day....she just couldn't let it go. Everyone else was over it in seconds. So I kind of think it was always kind of there....it just develops full blown in later teen years.

    Things turned truly ugly maybe 2 years ago around her 16th birthday. At first, she would run away constantly. By 17, she was cutting herself (because the physical pain is supposed to make you forget the mental pain temporarily). Then it was threats of suicide- never a super real attempt, mostly just words, and that's when the in-house stays started. Lately she's tried to overdose on pills a few times....but it was non-lethal stuff (we don't know if she knew they were non-lethal though....so you take it serious anyway). She goes to extremes so fast though and her entire personality/mood can change in a split second- it sounds like science fiction until you see it right in front of you.
     
  18. Deerless Dice

    Deerless Dice Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Seek therapy for yourself and your wife. It sounds like you are putting more blame on your wife for enabling your daughter, but having a 3rd party examine the situation will be eye opening and very helpful in providing a unified front in dealing with your daughter.

    You need space from your daughter. Take her off your phone plan and make it her responsibility. She's 18 so she won't be able to live without a phone. She has a mental illness, so she needs to seek treatment. Make her see a psychologist as a part of living in your house. If she threatens suicide then don't be afraid to invoke the Baker Act on her. Her former psychologist gave you a pretty good game plan for how to deal with her. Consider charging her rent to live at your house, put this money into savings account for her. Always give her the option to move out on her own. You need to protect the rest of your family from your daughter.
     
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  19. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

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    It doesn't sound like science fiction at all. I feel like I lived that through an employee in some ways. Not the same extremes but same behavior patterns, inability to let go of small things that everyone else lets go of within a few minutes, and calls of constant attention or need to be the center of attention.

    I'm of the belief though that people, even if they are born that way, they have to see something or hear something that makes a trait like that really come out. It sounds like your daughter gets triggered like most people but it may happen quicker and to a different extreme. Does she black out when she gets mad or upset? I ask because if she does it could be another sign that she doesn't have emotional control and that is when people become dangerous. I would have to think that if she's willing to hurt herself then she is willing to hurt others as well.

    Getting her out of the house may not be a bad thing.
     
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  20. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    There have been a few instances where she's not necessarily blacked out, but responded with extreme bursts of violence towards her little sister. For instance, they were arguing about a year ago, started pushing each other around (as siblings do....nothing serious), and then the older one grabbed her sister by the hair and slammed her head first into a plate glass window...we're taking full force. Luckily the glass held and there was only a minor injury but I kept thinking that she could have easily killed her sister. I actually debated for days whether to call the police or not on that one (I didn't).

    She has never attacked my wife or I YET but it feels like an imminent thing...it's coming sooner or later if she doesn't get help. But she won't take the help; that's the whole conundrum since it leaves us powerless now that she's 18.

    I can't tell you what really set it off though- she had a really close friend in 10th grade that she started treating bad...the girl was smart enough to just walk away from the friendship and that devastated my daughter. One of her main problems is obsessing over people, so if things go bad then it's Armageddon in her mind. That's what keeps happening- she befriends a not-so-good person, they hurt her emotionally, then she gets ultra-depressed. It's almost like clockwork every 2-3 months.
     
  21. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I'm not blaming my wife....but it's her fault at the same time. Does that make sense? I can't stress how incredibly difficult it is to have someone that knows you well and yelling the most hurtful things they can possibly imagine in order to get their way. She doesn't verbally attack me anymore because she's learned that no means no in my book...she doesn't even bother since it's a pointless battle. But she also knows my wife will give in- that's why I said earlier that she's such a smart little ****. She definitely knows how to play the game and win.

    I've debated about the phone forever now- but I let her keep it because we have a tracking app (Life 360) rooted into it where she can't see it. So at anytime we know where she is....that's worth 10x the amount of the cell bill to us. We did take her car and cancel the insurance after she moved out the last time, which ultimately is punishing my wife since she now drives her everywhere when she demands it. That's sort of what I meant by my wife "giving in"....the kid will manipulate her boss at work to let he stay to close and then she'll call my wife and tell her to pick her up at 2:30 AM...when she knows my wife has to be to work at 7.

    In her mind though, my wife needs to be punished for taking the car away...it's all games and revenge.

    We have Baker Acted her about 6 times now though and we tell her she has to pay for her own stuff- but that literally leads to another Baker Act. You'd be amazed what she explodes over....the smallest, easiest stuff. We definitely have to pick our battles and for now, paying us back is not one of them.
     
  22. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

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    IMO, there's 2 options....

    1. Kick her out and let her sink or swim. This is a very real option for me. Not because I could pretend like it would be easy to do so if I were in your position but rather because she will be forced to get her act together. If she weren't capable I'd probably be more sympathetic but she seems like she is and is just completely unwilling to do so.

    2. So Option 1 is the option if 2 doesn't work. Before option 1 is in play I think you could try the following..if you haven't done so already. At 18 it's probably too late for a military style school for her...I might have gone that route if she were 15-16. But you stated she was productive at work and basically a model employee. And that she wanted to become a nurse but with no real plan. Her personality seems self destructive and based on what you write probably OCD as well. Have you tried laying a plan out for her to become a nurse? How can she help people if she can't help herself? She really sounds like she needs to be kept busy and kept in the right environment. It sounds like there's 1 loser in a crowd of a million she'd probably find him/her.
     
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  23. Deerless Dice

    Deerless Dice Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't think kicking her out to let her sink or swim is the answer here. Under normal circumstances I would advocate that, but mental illness is involved here so going all hard a** is not going to work.

    Since I am not familiar with this mental illness It's really difficult to know where the your daughter being a dirtbag stops and the BPD begins. The thing about her taking advantage of your wife seems more DB to me since she doesn't do it to you anymore.

    Why does your wife have to be your daughter's chauffeur? Suggest she call a cab or use uber/ lyft, or procure a vehicle and insurance herself. As for working late, have your wife shut off her phone so she can get rest, and again suggest a cab or uber for transportation. It sounds like you are saying no and your wife is saying yes. Give your daughter more alternatives so that your wife can safely say no without feeling guilty. You and your wife need to work together, and therapy is where you can learn to do that.

    How does your daughter react to be being Baker Acted? Does she improve for a while and fall back into destructive tendencies? Or does she come back home ready for a fight?

    The picking battles thing worries me, because it shows how she is successfully manipulating the both of you.
     
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  24. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Well, if we say "no" and she can't get a ride, then she'll just walk home- it's about 15 miles through mostly pitch black country (with almost zero traffic as well, but still...lots of possibilities for something to go wrong). We actually let her walk a couple of times...but then we're up all night worrying that something happened to her. It's really a no-win situation no matter what we do. My area isn't quite big enough for Uber so that's not an option either.

    When we did the Baker Act (4 times, and she's gone twice voluntarily), she wasn't too mad at us because she didn't understand the process- basically the cops or the paramedics said that they were the ones forcing it. She'd go in whatever kid's psych ward somewhere in the state (they'll send her anywhere a bed is available in that circumstance). The first few days she'd be angry, the next few days she'd play the game to give counselors what they want, and she'd walk out the door exactly the same as she went in. It's sad, but we actually have a tradition of going to Panda Express on "release day" since that's her favorite restaurant- that's always her obsession once we walk out of a facility and it's one hell of a car ride home if we don't take her to eat what she wants.

    I get what you're saying that we are both being manipulated hard- you're very insightful. But the first time we said no to Panda Express, for example, she jumped out of the car at a stoplight 350 miles from home and took off running. We couldn't do anything in the traffic so it's like what the hell do you do? Call the cops? Say the hell with it and go home? I ended up calling the facility we left 5 minutes before, they called her cell and said that they were sending police to look for her and put her on another 7 day hold if she didn't go back to us immediately.

    Her plan- she was going to go to another crazy person's house who lived nearby. They are forbidden from sharing contact info and it's the first thing all of them do. As soon as they walk out of the facility, they're adding all the other crazys on Facebook and getting that negative reinforcement.

    We play these kinds of games just about every day of our lives and it's exhausting- but what the heck do you do? There's no real answer.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2017
  25. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    You know, I thought about military school when she was 12, 13 and 14- my wife talked me out of it every time though. My kid was in ROTC in high school though and wants to join the air force....only they won't take her because of her history of mental illness. She'd go in a heartbeat though and it would be the best possible thing for her.
     
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  26. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

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    That sucks. I really think people like that need to stay occupied with things important to them. Let them obsess over things that are productive and helpful rather then destructive. Man, i really dont know what you can do other then to simply build a plan around things she wants to achieve and cares about. Or if youve done that and she refuses to be productive...she gotta go.
     
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  27. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    Her friends are only seriously messed up people bc she feels a commonality with them and likely has a low self worth. Having a commonality with them and having a low self worth are likely not possible without having an understanding of her own existence. That would lead me to believe that she might know what's going on but is unwilling to work on herself (thanks to her mental health of course).

    I would consult the therapists who've spent time with her and ask them what odds they'd put on a person like her ever leading a life that doesn't compromise the sanity of those around her. If their answers offer minimal optimism, then it might be wise to play the probability here (send her packing) and thus focus on the other daughter who does have a chance at a normal life rather than risk destroying your family over a glimmer of hope. It's not too late for your healthy daughter to become damaged by all of this, so spend as much time as possible loving, cherishing, and nurturing her.

    This may qualify as an instance where you need to fight your instinct of parental obligation.... and fight those painful guilty feelings that accompany the thoughts of "abandoning a child". You and your wife can't let thoughts of "If we kick her out, what if such and such happens to her?" control your lives. Is your daughter more of a loner? Either way, she'll eventually probably end up becoming one as she gradually gives up on relationships.

    IDK, maybe you can look at it this way: by allowing this to persist on, you're essentially acting as enablers, and thus preventing her from developing the mental coping skills required for her function in the real world, which also means preventing her from adapting to the real world...... b/c, in order for her to become happy in her own mind, it will most likely come as the result of adaptation rather than through change, as she figures out ways to fit the world to her rather than her to the world. As emotionally difficult as it is for you to deal with her in your household, it's probably equally difficult and incredibly stressful, if not traumatic, for her to live in a normal household as a mentally/emotionally unhealthy person who's being asked to conform. Being on her own, that burdening stress should diminish as she learns to adapt. It's possible that this adapting/coping process leaves her choosing a life or lifestyle that you don't approve of or necessarily want for her, but it might be one that's best for her overall state of mind if that makes sense. If she is able to adapt, it's important that you accept her for who she becomes and definitely not enter the divisive "pass judgment" mode bc she'll choose her own sanity over the stressors of conformity. As it stands, once she is able to adapt and achieve some level of mental homeostasis within her own world, she may feel that it's less stressful and emotionally easier to simply cut ties with her family (just something to be prepared for). Maybe you could do something like this- tell her that if she really wants to become a nurse that you'll let her stay there as long as she enrolls in school, keeps up her grades, and graduates. That way, if she does get kicked out of the house, it will be the result of her own actions, of which only she can be held accountable for. Better piece of mind on your part.

    Your daughter sounds exactly like my ex wife down to the T by the way. She's in her 40's now, and nothing has or could change her, not even witnessing her teenage daughter flatline in the hospital before being revived (doctors didn't think she'd make it through the night). Not even the stark realization of the fragility of life smacking her in the face was able to wake her up and change her. She went so far as incorporating stage 3 breast cancer and all its trimmings into her manipulation repertoire (it was all a lie). She's a nurse too by the way. My ex would never seek therapy but I'm fairly certain that she's both BPD and sociopathic, and it sounds like your daughter may be comorbid as well, but I'm not a shrink. She'll most likely try to keep you and your wife roped in for as long as possible, using any means necessary, and you'll have difficulty discerning it b/c we as mentally healthy, responsible, empathy-feeling individuals simply can't fathom ourselves acting in such an intentionally deceitful, manipulative, destructive manner at the expense of others, let alone those close to us.

    By the way, and sorry to bring this up, but have you looked into the avenue of getting her tubes tied? I fear her next step in this evolution may be to use a child to secure her current dependency status on you guys, especially if a deep fear of abandonment is festering (heck, the fear of abandonment itself may be a significant culprit in her desire to remain lazy and irresponsible). Rather than seeking behavioral change or a lifestyle change, she may feel it's easier to tether you to a grandchild. She'll promise that the baby will be good for her, but ultimately you'll end up becoming parents again and the child will likely represent a means of maintaining her lazy status quo (staying at home, no work, no school, etc).

    Really feel bad about what your family is going through man. I know how it makes it a struggle to maintain your own sanity. If your situation is anything like mine- if change is what you and your wife absolutely desire, it will probably have to come from the two of you creating it yourselves, rather than relying on it to come from your daughter. Best of luck brother.
    :bighug:
     
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  28. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    In case you haven't already done so, you need to sympathetically acknowledge to your daughter that she unfortunately drew the short end of the stick in life, through no fault of her own.

    She may never have the stereotypic "normal" life, but hey, what's normal nowadays?
     
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  29. Bumrush

    Bumrush Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I was with a borderline personality disordered woman for close to 5 years. It was HELL after she stopped idealizing me.
    The disorder is nearly impossible to fix as it is hard wired in to her brain. I would suggest forcing her to go a therapy called CBT. There is a strong possibility that she also has an eating disorder and /or was sexually abused by someone you probably know. I know this is difficult to hear, but borderline personality, while it may have some genetic roots, is typically the product of very traumatic events during childhood development.

    You are basically in a no win situation and the condition gets worse over time, especially after she may seem to be on the up and up.. It's at that point that their self destructive behaviors really manifest themselves.

    My advice is, get therapy for you and your wife, have her sent to therapy (even if it's inpatient) and get to the deep seated roots to her problems, which may include actions that you and you wife did towards her. . There may be events you never even knew happened. In the case of my ex, she was a little chubby when she was 5 years old and her mother devalued her, called her fat, and refused to let her eat cafeteria food like the rest of her friends. Unbeknownst to anyone other than me (after 4 years with me and 1 month of treatment for an eating disorder) she broke down and told me that her grandfather used to sexually molest her during the exact same time her mother was devaluing her. In her class of 10 women that had the same condition (eating disorders) every single one of them had traumatic events that they hid like sexual abuse or other horrific events.

    After her breakthrough in which she finally felt good about herself she decided to go back to her insane ways, started cutting herself with glass shards and completely dissociated from life. Her pupils were constantly dilated. It was a personal version of hell.

    In terms of how I got rid of her, I STOPPED enabling her behavior. When I would come home and find my clothing all over the floor for no reason, I would simply walk over to it and put it back. When she cursed me out for serving her coffee that wasn't at the exact temperature she wanted I laughed. Once she knew she couldn't get a reaction out of me she was out. Previous to that when we would get in to heated arguments, I would turn insane. I'm normally a calm individual but with her I turned in to a maniac. Several times it got physical when I held her back from destroying my stuff or she threatened to walk outside at 2AM.

    Key, one day you realize that she is mentally ill and lives a life of absolute horror- Your anger will subside and you'll see her for what she is. A wounded human being with no hope. I'd rather be homeless under a bridge with my temperament than a BPD with a billion dollars.

    With 3-5 years of therapy she MAY learn to cope with her emotions, but the odds are infintisimle. She will manipulate therapists and go from treatment to treatment, always searching for a fix that doesn't exist. BPD is as a close to a human black hole as anything else in this world.

    Good luck my friend.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
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  30. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Luckily, my kid has bad womanly problems so she's been on birth control for about a year now. That balances that part out and she knows not to mess with it......so that's a big "phew". It's been my biggest fear as well- on the verge of having an empty nest and then starting parenthood all over again. I generally like kids but after the last few years, I definitely don't want any more.

    My daughter has disappeared almost every night this week so we finally told her two days ago- you'll either follow the simple house rules or it's time to leave. Our house rules have always been just two things- treat others well and clean up after yourself. She decided to leave though and I said, "Okay, but you need to pack up all your things this time- all the stuff you have thrown throughout the house and your bedroom isn't staying there." Since she got out of her last hospital stay, she's used her bedroom, the guest bedroom, the living room, the covered back porch, etc....they all have stuff everywhere like it's her bedroom. That started a war but I figured it was one worth fighting, because one way or another she needed to be responsible.

    Anyway, she left two days ago, came back yesterday for half the day to pack up more stuff (but she just sat on her smartphone all day instead), stopped by last night and then she was back today a few times. I realized that she was basically taking the best of both worlds since she was spending the night with friends and coming home to eat/get clothes, so I told her again today....grab all of your stuff if you're leaving. She got mad and left without anything (again), so we'll see what happens tomorrow. She has this poor, dumb 23 year old running her everywhere- I think the guy is in love with her and she has zero interest at all.

    So that's where we stand. I didn't technically kick her out because we made it crystal clear- follow our two rules and you're welcome here forever. She's just that darn stubborn though...I sometimes wonder if she will ever change.

    You asked a few questions- BPD is treated 100% through therapy and life coping skills...once you adapt, you can live a relatively normal life. I'm sure it's hard as heck to realize that you have to make massive changes though and she's just not strong enough to accept it...she'd rather be miserable than put in the work. And the reason she hangs out with losers is because she just comes off too strong when meeting new people- you can tell there's something slightly off and I think it shies people away from her. Other folks struggling seem to recognize that right off the bat though and they're drawn to it...I don't fully understand that part myself.

    If I had to guess, they think that if they can help someone else as screwed up as they are, then that's the next best thing from being normal. The only difference is that my kid could be normal if she worked hard for about 6 months. It's infinitely frustrating.
     
  31. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    That's interesting- we know that she was sexually abused (as in touched by a boyfriend) about the time all of this started getting bad....at that time in her life she was maybe a 3 or 4 out of 10 on the problematic/hard to be around scale. Afterwards, she jumped to a 6....then to a 7 or 8 within the year. Where a normal person would be back to zero after an inpatient stay, she might come back out at a 5.

    She was also dated-raped by someone she has always looked up to about 3 months ago- I've always hated this guy because he's a complete loser. He's 28, gave her some kind of pill one night and they ended up having sex...but she insists it was consensual, even though she can't remember anything that happened. But that's the obsession part of the disorder and she can't see it. We still want to put his *** in jail so bad it hurts, but what can you do?

    There is a lot I haven't said, but mainly my daughter has always seen the worst possible scenarios in an awesome life. We live on five acres in a big house in the country with a pool, a hot tub and a pool table. My kid has a huge room, all the latest toys/gadgets and we overhauled a car for her 16th birthday (she wrapped it around a tree 9 months later....should have died). Then we bought her a 2nd car. We take great vacations a few times a year and stay in nice resorts....maybe not 5 star places but not too far from it. I mean, we have spoiled the heck out of our kids...it's where all our free money has always gone. Yet she still sees her home life as horrible. I just don't get it.
     
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  32. Bumrush

    Bumrush Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    BPD develops during early childhood. It is VERY possible that events happened that you are unaware of and that the inappropriate touching triggered her mental illness that was repressed from earlier incidents.

    Like I said, a billion dollars, all the toys in the world, the perfect life DOES NOT SUBSTITUTE for the black hole in her head. Since perfection is the only thing that makes her happy, she will always crash as life is full of imperfections and grey matter. She lives in all black and all white.

    I hate to be the one to say it, but get to the root if you care to understand where all of this comes from. Do not confront her though.

    Also, by no means do I claim to be an expert, but I spent 2-3 years studying this, going to online forums, going to therapy, supporting her in therapy. I took my vows seriously. So take my advice with a grain of salt, I am not a psychologist and my assumptions may be 100% incorrect. There is a train of thought that people can develop the disorder through abnormal brain structure.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
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  33. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    Sorry I am late to this discussion Key. I rarely check the lounge.

    I have been a parish pastor for 33 years; many of them in small towns where I was the closest thing to a trained mental health professional. I have dealt with BPD occasionally and it is a very, very difficult diagnosis and even more difficult treatment.

    Let me add my voice to the call for you and your wife to get counseling. I would also add your younger daughter to the need for counseling. Her "normal" has been anything but. She will need help to process that in the future.

    Whatever you do, y'all will need help with the results of whatever action may come whether or not you force her out of the house. I think there is a real possibility she will take her own life and a note may be left saying she is "blaming" you! While that will be completely untrue, you and your wife will have to deal with the guilt your daughter will try and lay upon you.

    We can't determine what, if anything, brought about this disease. Is there an organic reason? Was there a trauma? Doesn't matter to us. Only counseling and probably some meds will deal with the disease properly if at all.

    Look at your own notes in this thread. Your daughter has been institutionalized six times by the age of 18. She is mentally ill and it will get worse, far worse. Unfortunately this country makes no provision for the mentally ill until they commit a crime or unless they have solid private insurance. This isn't a political observation as much as a simple statement of fact. Do what you can to get her the help she needs and then do what you have to in order to protect the rest of your family.
     
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  34. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Believe it or not, we actually took my daughter off my wife's insurance and got her on Medicaid because it opened more doors. You're right, the system is completely broken and it is almost impossible to find the right kind of help. It's even worse because we know exactly what our daughter needs but we are the last people on Earth she'll listen to...it's very, very hard to live this life and watch someone you love self destruct. Because even when you do get her with the right person (who's usually limited to a dozen sessions), it takes them months to get past all the BS and background stuff. So by the time they get to where they can "treat", the sessions are over.

    The good news is that the therapists say that she is not truly suicidal because she likes to argue too much- that shows a fight that suicidal people don't have. But like you said, I'm sure the day is coming where her attempts get more real.

    My wife and i have an appointment with a private local counselor on the 28th for our daughter, but she wants a 2 hour session with us first to get background info and stuff like that. We are very hopeful that she's the answer...it feels right and she teaches from a Christian background. But again, it all comes down to our kid...will she make the effort? Will she play games? There's no way to tell.

    Things seem to be going decent with her out of the house though. She hasn't been eating much (by choice) and she's currently fighting a cold, so she is calling or stopping by at least once or twice a day. We're walking the tightrope though and trying to stay balanced between loving and tough love- for instance, she wanted my wife to bring her Mucinex this afternoon for the cold...and she lives 30 minutes away. I said heck no- let her go to the store or ask someone else; that's what independent adults do. Was that the right move though? I have absolutely no idea...we're following the doctor's advice and winging it as much as possible. Things are never black and white when dealing with this type of illness.
     
  35. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    What does she say when you stop to ask her what it is that she actually wants and would make her happy?
     
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  36. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    My instincts say, yes, you did the right thing. If she has any connection to reality and she likely does, she needs to see a consistent link between actions and consequences. IF I want to be independent THEN I am responsible when I am sick. Things like that.

    But at a distance, we are all guessing. It sounds like you are trying to get the best care available. Keep at it!
     
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  37. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I would be careful as a parent in asking that question. It might be correct or it may set her off. That is a counselor's question not necessarily a parent's question in this circumstance, imo. But like so many things in a situation like this, I might be wrong and you might be right.
     
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  38. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    She gives an ultra-detailed answer- she will start college in the Spring and she's going to get her CNA license, then work in a nursing home while she completes her 4-year degree to become a registered nurse. She plans on being a travelling nurse in her 30's, see the world, and possibly of back to school for a doctorate. A few years ago, she had a similar plan as a physical therapist and eventually becoming a chiropractor.

    That's what she wants. What will make her happy? The answer is always independence. Without hesitation...she wants to be in control of her life.

    But what she says and actually does are two completely different things in both instances- I'd give her about a 2-5% chance of being in college in the Spring....and she can start at the local community college absolutely free. Earlier tonight is another example- she wants to be on her own, but wants mom to drive an hour round trip to bring her cold meds. Yet when she showed up here unannounced an hour ago, she didn't sound congested at all (or get any Mucinex like she asked for).

    I think most of the time it's just a dominance thing...she thinks, "How far can I push to make them prove they love me?" But as soon as we do something for her, it's forgotten and on to the next thing she wants. So we're trying to stop that completely and going back to, "you're welcome home at any time IF you follow two simple rules. Otherwise you'll have to do it yourself."

    She's been halfway level-headed the past few days (more-so than any time over the past 3 years), so who knows? We might be on a good path. When you live this though every single day, you quickly become a skeptic.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017
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  39. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Yup, that's what we are really trying to push telling her to be independent. At the same time though, we tell ever every single day that she's welcome to come home IF she's ready to be respectful and help a little with cleaning/chores. So we'll see where it leads.

    Yeah, it's tough to judge...sometimes she just wants to be explosive and over-dramatic. Part of that is being 18 and I understand that, so we basically don't try to push her too much from that angle. The only thing we repetitively say is that we love her and she's welcome at home if she can follow the two rules.

    The shrinks have said that there's really no point arguing over other things because it can't lead to something positive- either she's going to turn manic and get crazy with rage/emotion or she'll get depressed and shut down. There's almost a zero percent chance of us scolding her for her behavior and her actually taking it positive...it's always one of the two extremes.

    It's almost like playing a chess game against a grand master.....you know you can't win but you're forced to play the game out anyway. And even on the rare occasions where you do make a few brilliant moves, the kid gets unlimited do-overs by default (since we always have to back off before she explodes or gets way down). It's a rigged game but as parents, we're forced to play it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017
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  40. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    By the way, I really appreciate everyone chiming in....believe it or not, it has made this week A TON easier. We've been dealing with extremes for about three years straight now and it just beats you down so hard- you sometimes feel like you're going insane since everything is always so unfair against us. I really appreciate all of you giving me a place to vent and talk things out.

    Oh, my wife read everything here yesterday- she took a few things away from the conversations as well. I figured she's be mad at me for making her look weak but it's the truth...moms are more loving/nurturing than dads by default. I think it helped her to kind of realize that she can't do everything for the "bad kid" 24/7 and neglect everyone else (including herself) in the process. We're allowing ourselves to be victims while we enable and that has to stop.

    Thanks again!
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017

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