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Needing God to be good

Discussion in 'Religion and Spirituality' started by Laces Out, Nov 7, 2012.

  1. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

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    A version of this question was brought up by RNI in the POFO in a thread about weed. I'd love the opportunity to discuss this idea respectfully of course.
     
  2. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    How so laces out?
     
  3. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=- Club Member

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    Hasn't really helped Tim Tebow's passer rating...










    :crapstrom:
     
  4. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    With one God, there is a need for him to be good and flawless.

    If there is many Gods it doesn't matter if one or almost all of them are huge jerks.
     
  5. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=- Club Member

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    Well, what about Titans?
     
  6. So the question is what, Does god need to be good?
     
  7. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    whats up?
     
  8. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    If this is about weed I will say that many christians would disagree with me. I think everything natural has a purpose and in Genesis 1 God says that he gives man all seed bearing plants on the whole face of the earth and that everything he has made is good. That's my stance. I see nothing wrong with weed, its not addictive and its here for a reason.
     
  9. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Are you asking if one must have a relationship with god before that person can be good?
     
    Laces Out likes this.

  10. What purpose does free will have?
     
  11. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    I think Fin D is on the right track in this confusing thread. Now I know what inspired this thread from what I said in POFO when I suggested maybe if someone had a relationship with God they wouldn't be psychopathic killers and child molesters. I was defending God to someone that didn't believe in God and he suggested that my God made psychopathic killers and child molesters which I found absurd.
    I went on to explain that people had free will and God didn't make psychpathic killers and child molesters. That was their choice.
    But no I don't think anyone needs God to be good. I will add that being good won't bring anyone to heaven according to the bible.
     
  12. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    Free will for religious reasons, the reason God gave us free will IMO is so that we would choose to have a relationship with God as opposed to God making a creation that was forced to serve him.
     
  13. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

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    yes, this! sorry for the confusion all, I was posting from my mobile. I have had this debate with some Christian friends, and they seem to be of the consensus that one cannot be a good person absent a relationship with God. Something in what Ricky posted reminded me of this, and I wanted to discuss it further.
     
  14. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    There is plenty of good people that do good things in this world that don't have a relationship with God. IMO people like that should be repected because I believe we are all "bent toward sin" and have evil desires in our hearts.
     
  15. I disagree I think mankind is inherently good
     
  16. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    By the way, thanks for making this thread. I prefer my POFO threads to stay on topic which is almost impossible unless people do what you just did here. I appreciate it.
     
  17. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    Its all in how you are raised IMO. Everyone has a conscience, but its a constant struggle.
     
  18. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Not so, in this case experience teaches me this simply is untrue, in many many ways Machiavelli was quite correct:

    "To be good all of the time (while) around so many who are not good is an action that will ruin you"

    God, being "good" is based on mere human perception, keep in mind when the Eternal is viewed, instead of the individual's narrow world/time view, good or bad is simply a state of mind.
     
  19. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I guess I am still not sure what the question is in this thread. Is humanity inherantly good? No, we are inherantly sinful, that is we choose self over others. Can people do good things without the obvious, direct inflence of God? Obviously yes. That answer comes from human observation. Though if we are indeed "created in the image of God" then perhaps the question is moot because God is somehow imprinted into our DNA whether we relate to it or not.

    Am I good? No, I am a sinner at the same time I am a redeemed saint. Both, always.

    Am I on the target?
     
  20. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    God and good are the same thing.
     
  21. I think if one person asks another person to hold 10k for them while they go help their kid out. I think if that 10k was a lot of money to that person holding it, they would steal it because they need it. However if the person had bill gates type of money they would generaly help the other guy out by keeping his money safe. In general I think one of the basic characteristics people have is that they are charitable to one another. If you see someone with their hands full most people hold the door open for that person. Granted its a very minor thing but it indicates to me given the choice without consequence people generally choose to be good.
     
  22. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

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    The bold would be closest to my hurried OP.
     
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  23. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

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    So.......no, one cannot be a good person without God?
     
  24. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    LO, there is a difference, for example Stalin did feed the fmr peasants, a "good" act, he also would dine with those perceived political enemies that he signed their death warrants at the very table they were eating dinner at...

    Righteous and "Good" are different things.
     
  25. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Ah, but if a family member of Bill Gates had a 10k loan from him, if they did not pay it back they'd justify themselves by saying he already had billions anyway.
     
  26. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

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    I don't mean to seem combative here, but aren't righetous and good synonyms?
     

  27. You have struck one of my favorite intelectual excercises.

    Is selfish bad?

    I just posted how I think people are inherently good. The reason why I believe they are is because being good to others makes the person feel good themselves. So the motive to be good becomes a selfish one.

    I hope I do not offend anyone with the next part. I typicaly like to use mother teressa as an example of what I mean. She was considered a very selfless person for all her generous charitable work. If you think about it I think its fair to assume she felt very gratified and that her work was spiritual rewarding. She also may of been motivated by thinking it was what God wanted her to do and it was her path to get into Heaven. Im not saying these are bad reasons or she is an evil person but I would argue her motivations are selfish.

    My point is that I do not view being selfish as bad. The desire to harm is bad but everything that is selfish isnt motivated by that desire to hurt.
     
  28. They might rationalize their bad behavior that way if they needed the money and had no way to repay it. It kind of reminds me of the argument the left is making about raising taxes on the rich :lol:
     
  29. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    The definition that christians would define as righteous from the bible is "in right standing with God" which is something that is impossible to do by good deeds. You can only be righteous according to the bible by having a relationship with God and "having the blood of Jesus wash your sins away" by asking forgiveness and turning from your sin. In the old testament, righteousness was obtained by sacrificing an animal to God and asking forgiveness. This was no longer necesarry once Jesus became the ultimate sacrifice for all mankind.
    But to answer your question, there is definitely a difference from righteousness and good.
     
  30. I think spmethingelse worth mentioning is that good is a subjective term. Kind of like defining art
     
  31. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    Shulaguy, I think an example of people being what i call "bent toward sin" and having evil desires can be seen by observing little kids play with toys. lol. They always get upset when someone plays with their toys, they aren't inclined to share, and they often hit one another. know what I mean?
    But they can be raised to be good kids and good people without ever having a relationship with God.
     
  32. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Yessir, it sort of is.

    Gosh, that seems to be unethical..nah, course not, redistributing rewards for political game is NOT a power game..:rolleyes:
     
  33. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I understand your question;philosophy 101. I do disagree/object to the bolded/underlined portion of your quote. Christians, especially ones like Mother Theresa do not DO something IN ORDER to be saved but inherantly because they are grateful to a God who has already brought them back into relationship. Not in order to be saved but because one is saved. It is gratitude rather than obligation.

    Of course none of that really answers your "Is everything . everyone does selfish"? question. I'm gonna duck that one because we Christians use the sense of selfishness as the root of original sin and talk about it in different ways.
     
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  34. I dont know. I will think on that example. I tend to think that they act that way not out of bad intent but because they dont comphrehend and think they being deprived of something. They are behaving selfishly but I dont know I go as far as saying evil.
     
  35. Intresting perspective that I have never considered. Its so obvious Im a little embarassed to admit to that. I do agree though it would make sense that it was her way of showing grattitude to her diety. I thank you for that one. It is good food for thought.
     
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  36. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    I'm just beginning to define God to myself... For now I see it this way.

    Good is an idea from a persons individual ego standpoint... My own idea of what 'should' and 'shouldn't' be.

    But that's above my spiritual pay grade to decide.

    God sees the bigger picture. We must accept what comes our way and find the good in it, and make good of it. Even evil can beget good.
     
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  37. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    when I say evil I don't intend the normal connotation of the word that most people think of when they hear the word evil. I mean anything that would be classified as sin. Even something like being selfish or telling a white lie or anything minor like that. IMO evil is anything like that, anything that draws someone away from God. Anything that would require the need to ask God for forgiveness I would classify as sinful or evil.
     
  38. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    I will say that when I first became a christian I had an over whelming desire to do things I wouldn't normally do. I would go "street wittnessing" and as I told people about God I would say things like,"the only reason I am talking to is because God is in me and God loves you and he wants me to tell you what I am telling you". It was my only way to explain it and that was what I knew to be true. Because without God being in me I had no other reason to do things like that.
     
  39. Thats a problem for me because Im an Atheist. I define evil as the intent to cause harm without a just reason which is very different from your definition.
     
  40. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    I will share the same disclaimer I shared in my first thread in this religion forum.
    I currently don't have a relationship with God, so forgive me if you ever see me in another forum talking about God but also not acting like a christian. I always feel a need to defend God in other threads when I see certain comments people make. I am very knowledgable about the bible to the point where I know most greek and hebrew definitions of english words in the bible. I actually am a reverend but I don't even go to church anymore. I went through a divorce, became bitter and sort of fell away from God.
    I just wanted everyone to know that because I do have a tendacy to talk about God and the bible when certain things are brought up in the POFO forum. And I realize that I do that in several posts and I also get into some heated conversations and say things I shouldn't say. But like I was trying to say, I wouldn't even define myself as a christian for the time being. I hope to change that soon.
     

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