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Needing to win today but drafted projects

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by pumpdogs, Apr 28, 2024.

  1. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Burrows wasn't coming off a horrific hip injury, which was really the beginning of the injury argument.

    I hold Grier accountable for not getting an offensive line, and I personally can't stand his drafting, I don't care how many on here defend it.
     
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  2. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    College football is becoming more and more like the NFL. Collegiate players are bigger, stronger and faster than their predecessors of 40/50 years ago. It’s a forgone conclusion there will be some players declaring for the NFL draft that will have some form of injury history. There will also be those who’ve yet to have an injury history, but will. Just like those of us who ride motorcycles; there are 2 types of riders…those who have dropped their bikes and those that are going to. Same thing with football players, collegiate or professional. They’ve either been injured or going to be injured. It’s unavoidable.
     
  3. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Not all players are the same in terms of severity and quantity of injuries. And there are definitely players who are more durable than others, they are not all built the same. If a player has had a major injury and/or consistently missed games because of repeated injuries, then it's safe to say the player is injury prone and maybe we should look somewhere else. Most obvious example is Terron Armstead, but Grier has continually gone for players with major or frequent injury histories, so it should be no surprise when we are league leaders in injuries.

    Another example is that we are going into next season with major question marks at Edge rusher and had to spend another first round pick on a project Edge guy this year because Grier decided to trade for and Draft two injury prone players in Chubb and Phillips.

    And the few players we have who are durable, like Wilkins, we let them walk.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2024
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  4. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    I'm with you, but so many 1st round picks don't make it anyway. I felt like Gibbs was a homerun pick as far as working out.
     
  5. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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  6. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well away from here
    Ah, the mains where intelligence goes to die.
     
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  7. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So you're saying there is a relation to Phillips' college concussions and his torn Achilles 4-5 years later?
     
  8. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know how many times I have to explain this, but being injury prone is not necessarily about reinjuring the same body part. It is a general propensity to get injured and miss games which could be from various different injuries. Phillips missed multiple games in college due to concussions, multiple ankle injuries, and wrist injuries. He even medically retired for a while in 2018. He has also missed games each season since he was drafted due to various issues with his back, foot, and now Achilles. The man is definitely injury prone, as are several players on our team.
     
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  9. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    The only real case for calling someone “injury prone” is if they have the same injury over and over. A person who has a fused L5-S1 and constantly misses games because of his bad back, has a CHRONIC injury and is prone to missing games.


    While it may be clearly evident that a player HAS BEEN prone to injury, it doesn't necessarily follow that the same player, now healthy, WILL BE prone to injury in the future.

    “Injury-prone” is more often used prospectively rather than retrospectively, i.e. guessing.
     
  10. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's correct. There's not much interrelation between Phillips' injuries. You could maybe stretch a high ankle sprain at UCLA to an achilles tear in 2023 but you'd just be doing it on feeling.

    I think a good example of a related injury would be Tannehill tearing the same ACL in two consecutive years. He chose to not go under the knife for his first surgery which probably didn't help.

    I don't think any of Chubb's injuries were interrelated either.

    Getting hurt is just part of the game. Wilkins is the exception, not the rule.
     
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  11. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    No, not all players are built the same, not everyone has the same body type, bone/ligament density, or musculature. Some guys are just more physically durable than others. It's like cars, some cars are just built and engineered better and are more reliable than others.

    Some players either due to their natural physiology and/or style of playing will be more prone to getting injured and miss games. It was pretty clear with Phillips coming out of college that he was injury prone and had injury concerns, we should stay away from guys like him, armstead, and Tua. I said it the day we drafted Phillips that I liked him as a player but was worried about him being injury prone. I was right.

    I don't care if Wilkins is an exception, we should have more guys like Wilkins on our team who came into the league with no prior injury history or concerns, then maybe we wouldn't have to be crying about injuries every season and using it as an excuse. Past performance is the best predicter of future performance. More often than not if you are often injured in college you will continue to be often injured in the pros. And vice versa as well, if you were durable in college, more often than not you will also be durable in the pros.
     
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  12. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Science disagrees with you.

    “The overarching point is this: despite the public perception that future injury is easily identifiable and predictive is flat wrong.

    So then what is actionable? Fading narratives.

    If anybody outside of a trained medical professional expresses concern for a player’s situation, run for the hills. That’s especially true if the person’s primary evidence echoes something along the lines of “he’s been hurt in the past” or “he’s missed [X] amount of games in [Y] years”.”

    https://www.fantasypoints.com/nfl/articles/season/2021/injury-prone-is-a-lie-part-i#/



    There are exceptions, as the article talks about, but even then there’s no real way to determine “injury prone-ness.” The medical
    professional that wrote the article talks about a person with limited dorsal flexion as an example. Will that person get ankle injuries more often? Maybe… maybe not.

    Again, chronic issues, ie neck/back fusions, are different than someone who had, say, an ACL and then a concussion. There’s no reliable way to predict who will get injured or when they will get injured. (Outside of those with chronic issues).

    “injury prone” is a myth spread by those who don’t really know what they’re talking about.
     
  13. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Correct, and yet Burrows can’t seem to stay on the field. And Tua’s hip hasn’t been an issue.

    They’ve addressed the oline. I, too, wanted an OG with the first pick, but until we see how the guys they have play together I’ll hold off on criticisms.
     
  14. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. That article seems like just one doctors opinion from a guy who set out to disprove a narrative, and really didn't disprove anything. He just basically said he doesn't think there is any conclusive evidence to prove the injury prone narrative, but the evidence he provides to contrary is also not conclusive.

    In fact there have been numerous scientific studies showing that previous injury is the best predictor of future injury.
     
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  15. Aquapride

    Aquapride Active Member

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    From which medical school did you graduate?
     
  16. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    If I sprain my ankle, and just throw an ACE bandage on it and walk around until it heals and do no sort of rehab, (especially if it was a high grade sprain) yes, I may be susceptible to another ankle sprain.

    NFL football players don’t do that. They rehab like crazy. Will that rehab prevent another ankle sprain 100%? No.

    And an ACL doesn’t predict concussions. A shoulder injury doesn’t predict a back injury.

    There are not “numerous” studies that show what you’re saying. There are studies that show people with lower extremity injuries who don’t properly rehab are at a greater risk of injuring themselves again. There are a few that talk about not rehabbing properly so the opposite leg is at risk. Mainly due to neurological deficits in the first injured leg and weaker muscles thus creating undue force on the opposite limb.

    If an NFL player tears his ACL, has no setbacks like infection, etc ,and rehabs properly, their chances of reinjury are really no greater than it was before they tore the ACL. And a properly rehabbed ACL has no bearing on concussions, etc.
     
  17. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I’m not spreading the myth, dolt.

    But just to watch you cry more I’ll answer your question.

    Iowa Carver College of Medicine (Physician Assistant Program)

    Prior to that I worked as a paramedic and then a radiographer in a cath lab.
     
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  18. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Lots of emerging data on the topic of injury-proneness in NFL football, but it doesn't look to be anything definitive as of yet. It seems the NFL is looking into researching this more in the name of player safety, but what they probably want is to embolden their prospective gambling population.

    https://theathletic.com/1543675/202...ining-the-fairness-of-the-injury-prone-label/
     
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  19. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    But, we can’t listen to Dr Andrews, world renowned orthopedic surgeon, on such matters!
    Lol

    His practice is in my hometown. My oldest daughter tore her ACL while doing competitive cheerleading in HS and he did her surgery. Her husband now works at his clinic. I guess Dr Andres recently retired from seeing patients and doing surgery, but he’s in the clinic often according to my son-in-law.
     
  20. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well away from here
    Now, now play nice.

    Can't imagine why we've had such interesting conversations around injuries, mental acuity and the like. Just don't get it.

    I can see me getting myself in trouble down here.
     
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  21. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    It's a never ending task keeping these boys to play nice.
     
  22. Phil Hutchings

    Phil Hutchings Well-Known Member

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    He’s a big unit, isn’t he?
     
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  23. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Trolls are bound to keep all mods busy.

    :glare: :jt0323:
     
  24. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    We've been through this discussion before. I already proved you wrong with studies showing athletes with ACL injures are significantly more likely to suffer a second ACL injury compared to noninjured athletes, and that most of the time the second injury will happen on the opposite knee. Exactly what happened to our starting center Williams last year.

    If you can't see how guys like Phillips, Williams, Tua, and Armstead are injury prone, then there is no point even discussing this any further. Lost cause.

    According to you all athletes are the same and no one is more likely to get injured than anyone else. Sure, keep believing that and keep crying every year about how "unlucky" we are when we get decimated by injuries. You and Grier must be best buddies.
     
  25. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    No you didn’t. You proved that you don’t understand how to read a scientific/medical study.

    While it’s true that some studies show that children and adolescents who have ACL tears have a significant chance of reinjury, later studies show that those higher chances are most likely due to improper rehab and return to normal activity too soon.
    The average NFL player has about a 2% greater chance of a second ACL tear…which means it’s not statistically significant. Of course there are exceptions and those exceptions are mainly due to complications from the initial surgery.

    I tried to explain that to you previously, but you ignored it.
     
  26. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Oh, and JP’s college concussions have no bearing on his Achilles injury. Tua’s hip injury was a freak thing and has nothing to do with his concussions. Armstead has a chronic back condition that affects his back and lower extremities. This has also been explain to you before and you also ignored it.

    I’ve never met Grier, but I’ll take his opinion of a player over yours 100% of the time. You’ve proven time and time again that you’re just an angry little boy who is incapable of rational thought or objective thinking.
     
  27. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Exqeeze me :) a big unit you say ?

    Ok Phil I see what’s going on here :)
     
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  28. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well away from here
    :jt0323:
     
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  29. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Look at Dan being all disingenuous again, and getting proven wrong, again, for the umpteenth time.

    No I did not ignore you, boy. You ignored me after I exposed that you were the one who didn't know how to read the study. See the final post on that discussion below, to which you never responded because you were clearly wrong, again.

    But as usual, you will never admit to it.

     
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  30. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    lol… Yes, produce your words instead of the study to prove that you understand the study. Brilliant!

    If you knew more than what’s on the point of your head you’d understand that that these studies are nothing more than a compilation of many studies with some more data. If you look at just one study, and can’t comprehend it, you can find one that you believe supports your ignorance.

    Bottom line, NFL players with a previous ACL, on average, have about a 2% greater chance of tearing it again. + or - . Which means it’s not really statistically significant and far from any good measure of determining future injury.
    AND, once again you little girl, an ACL has absolutely no bearing on other future injuries as long as rehab was done correctly, the surgery was successful, and the player didn’t come back too soon.

    But you keep ignoring all the medical professionals while you sit in your crummy little apartment handwringing and pretending that you know anything about medicine or science because you have Google. Lmao
     
  31. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    This is acceptable. :up::mullet4:
     
  32. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I already posted the study in the other thread ages ago, genius. The study YOU completely misinterpreted becaue you either don't know how to read, or becuase it doesn't fit your narrative. Now you are just trying to muddy the waters.

    Again, you ignored me and didn't respond back on the other thread because you were clearly exposed as being wrong on your interpretation of the study. And because pea brained boys like you are not man enough to admit when they are wrong.

    See study again below.

     
    Last edited: May 12, 2024
  33. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Lmmfao!!

    I love it when dullards double down on their stupidity!

    Once again, you don’t understand how these studies work. Not to mention you’re using a study that’s over 10 years old and referenced studies that were way older (1994 and older…) and your study was including women. How many women have you seen playing NFL football?

    Anyhow, you’re completely ignorant of this subject and every single thing you’re parroting is from Google and you don't understand what you’re reading. Trying to explain this to you is akin to me trying to teach my dog calculus (that’s a higher form of math if you don’t know… Google it)

    You bore me and I can’t believe I’m arguing with someone like you over this, so I’m done.


    I will leave you with this:


    “How likely is it to tear the ACL in the same knee twice?”
    Now let’s talk about the actual likelihood of having the bad luck to tear your ACL not once, but twice.

    The short of it is that after your surgery, your knee will be back to about the same percentage in terms of risk of re-tearing as the risk of tearing was initially. Other factors may contribute to the risk, though.”

    —-Dr. Bill Sterett

    His bio:

    https://drsterett.com/dr-sterett
     
  34. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Oh so now you want to attack the study because it's from 2014 and included women athletes? Just keep moving the goalposts and mudding the waters.

    It's a perfectly fine cohort study. Yes, previous injury history is a good predictor of future injury.

    Yes, injury prone players do exist. No, it's not a myth. I guess Devante Parker, Terron Armstead, Tua, Phillips, Chubb, Williams and other injury prone players we've picked up over the years we're just unlucky? Sure. Not buying it.

    Not everyone is built the same. I mean you actually claimed that Tua is no more susceptible to injury than Allen. GTFO. I guess that's why the Bills encourage Allen to run and draw up running plays for him, while the Dolphins do everything in their power to ensure nobody even touches Tua.

    They won't even let him run a draw.
     
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  35. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    …..and my responses to him get deleted. Lmfao?
     
  36. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    “The short of it is that after your surgery, your knee will be back to about the same percentage in terms of risk of re-tearing as the risk of tearing was initially. Other factors may contribute to the risk, though.”
    —-Dr. Bill Sterett- world renowned orthopedic surgeon for US Olympians

    “There’s no way to predict future injury” (paraphrasing)
    — Dr. Andrews- world renowned orthopedic surgeon for NFL players for decades


    “They’re wrong.”
    —--hitman6- Google expert with reading comprehension problems and a high school diploma


    Lmao
     
  37. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I never mentioned anything about retear rates on a repaired ACLs, that’s not what the study was about.

    And no you can't predict injury with absolute certainty and 100% probability, but if a player is often injured he has a higher probability of continuing to get injured, than a player who has been seldomly injured and has shown durability.

    Again, not all players are the same, we need to stay away from the often injured and majorly injured ones and go after the ones who have proven durability.
     
  38. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Yeah, just more proof you don’t understand what you’re reading.

    The study you cited most definitely talked about both the ipsilateral and contralateral ACL’s after previous injury. As I mentioned before, the study is also taking about women. Who studies have shown have a higher rate than men when it comes to ACL injuries.

    Most studies show that NFL players have a higher rate of ACL injury than your typical adult. Which shouldn’t be surprising. Actual studies show that a person has about a 2-3% greater risk of tearing a previously repaired ACL and a 2-3% greater risk of tearing the contralateral ACL after previous ACL surgery. ALL NFL players have about a 2-5% chance of tearing an ACL.

    In short, theres really no higher risk of reinjury to the repaired ACL or the opposite knee after ACL repair than there is to tearing an ACL the first time. Just like the world renowned orthopods said.
     
  39. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Care to post your studies? I posted mine. Your Dr. Andrew's quote only addresses retear rates on the same ACL that was repaired, not overall ACL reinjury rates to both knees.
     
  40. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Keep moving those goal posts.

    I didn't do any studies, so they are not mine. However, as a medical professional I have access to medical studies/sites that you most likely don't. Also, not only can I access these studies, but I can comprehend them. Although, there is information out there that anyone can find, but I'm not going to look for you.

    You're inability to understand the science and medicine leads you to believe that this is all black and white. It's like the layperson who believes that the law is black and white when any lawyer will tell you it is not. I've tried to explain the truths about this topic in a concise and abbreviated way so you can understand them. You ignored it. I've quoted some of the leading surgeons in the field, and you ignored them.

    Any person can injure their ACL. Are there genetic factors that may give one person a greater chance of injury than another? Of course. However, a previous ACL injury hasn't been shown to be a good predictor of another ACL tear. People with these genetic issues typically aren't playing in any high level sports. And an ACL injury sure as hell doesn't have any bearing on whether or not a person will get injured somewhere else...the same goes for all injuries. Unless it's a chronic issue; as I've mentioned.

    We are talking about NFL players. We are talking about men. We are talking about adults. The studies you're relying upon are not sticking to these conditions. Therefore, you're coming to the wrong conclusions based on that...as well as your inability to comprehend what you're reading.

    Current evidence shows that there are factors that may contribute to reinjury of the ACL, or contralateral ACL injury, being greater in the college football and NFL population. The main factors are the length of time between the injury and surgery, complications of that surgery, and the rehab. NFL teams and doctors know this and as such follow the current guidelines (based upon actual science) that surgery is done in an appropriate timeline and complications and poor rehab are very rare, if not unheard of regarding the latter. Now, that's not saying there aren't NFL players who shirk their rehab responsibilities and thus have a greater chance of reinjury (contralateral or ipsilateral) than another player who took rehab more seriously. However, if a college player tears his ACL there shouldn't, and aren't, really any concerns in drafting that player based upon his ACL injury. Will that player have another ACL injury in the NFL? Maybe, maybe not. The same thing can be said about all NFL players who have never suffered an ACL injury.


    You're attempting to disparage the Dolphins GM for drafting players that have a prior injury history. That's what this is all about. As if he doesn't have access to some of the best doctors in the world and he doesn't take their advice. As if a multi BILLION dollar industry would allow "injury prone" players to steal their money. As if any NFL team owner would willingly pay a person 10's, if not 100's, of millions of dollars if they thought there was some great chance of that player being injured. Maybe the owners don't care? Maybe the GM of an NFL team is willing to lose his job because he ignores the science (or what you believe the science to be) and drafts/signs players that have some great chance of being injured. Is that you're position? It sure seems like it is.

    Bottom line, the NFL has access to all the best medicine, research, doctors, ect that money can buy. Does that mean they are 100% right in their decisions? Nope, but that's because medicine isn't as black and white as you think. If GM's stopped drafting players with previous injuries, the league would cease to exist. If GM's started cutting all players who got injured, some of the greatest to ever play would not have had careers. If GM's listened to you, they'd all be fired.
     

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