We won't get the chance to draft Jordan IMO, but if we did take him, or Jones or Mingo, they could be a situational pass rusher as a rookie, same as Aldon Smith and Bruce Irvin.
Agree on both counts with respect to each Jones, Jordan, and even Mingo. I just don't think Jeff Ireland would. He's going to want someone who can be an immediate impact. Other than Vontae Davis, every 1st round pick he's had has been a day one starter. And even Vontae started like 10 games as a rookie when Will Allen got hurt. I could see him taking someone like Jonathan Cooper over Mingo just because he knows he's going to get more immediate impact out of Cooper.
I've argued both positions because that was my original stance, but everyone was telling me the Sam..my argument is it doesn't matter to me.
I would agree if we were talking about a true 3-4 defense. I think he could play both the weak and strong sides. But, we're not talking about a true 3-4 defense. He's certainly not going to supplant Cameron Wake - who plays a position akin to a SOLB in a 3-4. I think as it pertains to Miami's defense specifically, he'd be replacing Koa Misi on the edge, which is a position akin to a WOLB in a 3-4. Burnett's position is more of an ILB-like position. I don't see Dion Jordan playing that spot. The nature of that position would be sacrificing him of his best traits IMO. You want him on the edge with that speed, length, and ability to run the arc. You don't want him taking on guards 1-on-1 inside, trying to stop the run as Burnett does when he's not dropping in coverage or playing man on a TE. Jordan's an edge player to me, through and through, and his value is best represented there. I'd be using him like the 49ers use Aldon Smith or like the Seattle Seahawks use Bruce Irvin. Drop him in coverage if you have to (not saying he's bad at it), but I'd be sending him after the QB play after play, especially in a 3-4 defense. I'd stick him on the weakside and try and give him as many singled up matchups on tackles all day long. Think Joey Porter for Miami in 2008.
IMO the only way Jordan would work is if Koyle has a plan in place that we're not yet privy to b/c I'm not sure he's the best fit/pick for the cost involved. I guess if Ireland & Co are high enough on him they could take him and use Misi's contract year as a transitional year for Jordan and then let Dion take over next year. It's not a way I would go, but then again I'm not the defensive coordinator so there could be something about Jordan that would leave Koyle & Ireland wanting to tweak the defense. At least he'd be on the weak side with Odrick so that's in his favor. Wonder if he could be used against Gronkowski and how that'd fare.
but we're really not a true 4-3 either. It looks like we're more of a 4-3 to the left and a 3-4 to the right.
I'm not so sure we can know Ireland's line of thinking. We've been led to believe he follows the Parcells blueprint, but we saw 3-4 examples of him not doing so last season. IMO, about any GM if they felt they could have the rookie impact of a Smith or Irvin from their #1 even if only playing 500-600 snaps and situational, would take it. I'm of the belief that Ireland has his own blueprint and this is going to be his 3rd draft not under the watchful eye of Parcells, so we really haven't enough of a sample size to have a good read on what Ireland's blueprint totally is. It just appears he is not copying Parcells blueprint entirely.
I think you'd call it a true Under defense if Cameron Wake was playing on the other side. It looks more like an Over defense since Wake plays exclusively on the left, but there are some 3-4 principles to it. You could almost look at a still frame of the defense right before the snap, and if Cameron Wake was in a 2-point stance, it'd look just like a 3-4 the way the front seven line up. I think one of those is that Jared Odrick is playing as an oversized DE, much like how Seattle uses Red Bryant. Either way you slice the defense, you wouldn't be best served playing Dion Jordan in the same role as Kevin Burnett, 4-3 or 3-4. He's an edge player.
Purely my opinion based only on what Ireland's done in the 1st round. He definitely surprised me with some moves last year, especially Lamar Miller - I thought that was brilliant. After all, Jeff himself is in a contract year; he's going to have to nail the personnel moves this year.
he's definitely an a Edge payer, but has incredible ability to drop and cover space, to chase, to cover the flat, he can do it all Ro from an athletic perspective, the only weakness I see in his game is that he doesn't break inside on the rush enough..
I still think Tavon Austin is the leader TBH. Ok, GM has a silent crush on Tannehill for at least a year and then makes him the 8th overall pick, and in doing so binds himself to Tannehill as well as binds Tannehill forever with Luck, RG3, and Wilson. What's your next move if you're Ireland? Attempt to win the QB challenge by doing as much possible to help your selection look like the best of the bunch?
From the Oregon games I've seen, he's good enough against the run, but he needs work there. Agree with not having an inside rush move. That'd make him pretty lethal in pass-rush, especially if he's able to get stronger when his labrum is repaired. His pad level gets high in his rush at times as well. In the USC game from this year, the Trojans' TE #86 was in pass-pro against Jordan a few times 1-on-1 and had a pretty easy time handling Jordan and just riding him past Barkley in the pocket because Jordan was too high in his rush and doesn't have an inside move. RT did it several times as well. He's a tremendous athlete, but there's definitely some things he needs to work on to become a tremendous football player. Watching the combine someone called him a poor-man's Aldon Smith. I think that fits to a degree.
They all need work, the question remains, if your willing to pass on an outside linebacker that has this kind of skill, I just can't subscribe, let him play an elephant type role, let him and wake get after it, use him on the tight end, let him flex out wide.
I agree. I find those posts claiming what Ireland will and won't do based on picks made while Parcells was here or for a different coaching system to be completely lacking in credibility .
Wouldn't surprise me if Miami ended up with Austin or Stedman Bailey. Ireland was at WVU's Bowl Game. Unless he's got a man-crush on Justin Pugh or was checking out Shamarko Thomas, I'm not sure who else he'd have been there for. I'd lean more toward Bailey than Austin, but I agree with the principle.
I agree - just saying that's not what he'd be doing if he was replacing Kevin Burnett in Miami's defense. I don't think he's on the board at 12 though.
Well, to be fair, that criteria only leaves you with 1 year to look at, so yeah, it'd be unfair to characterize his strategy based on 2012 alone. Again, I was just going off of what Miami had done in the 1st round alone. If Jeff Ireland drafts Jordan or Jones to play 500-600 snaps a la Aldon Smith or Bruce Irvin as roookies, I'm all for it. My gut hunch is simply that I think he'll try to land someone who has a lot of immediate impact. And that's my opinion based off of previous 1st round picks. I could be very wrong, and it wouldn't surprise me all that much.
I feel like I am the only person who thinks he can develop into a quality player (among those I talk to I mean).
You're right, it's not a popular opinion right now but there's something to work with. One thing that stood out to me was his improvement in the pocket from 2011 to 2012. He was more calm and understanding of where his options were. But he's still inconsistent. Needs to get his footwork cleaned up. To his credit, he looked better at the combine but there's no hulking, 300-pound defensive lineman looking to plant him like a seed.
Interestingly, Martin started as a Freshman, so he meets the 25 game criteria, Miller played in 22 games (afa I can tell, he did play in 11 games in 2010, but I'd thought he had a bad shoulder in 2011 but still rushed for 1,000 yds it looks like he appeared in 23 games, but started 12 of them http://www.hurricanesports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=205558537) Kaddu had his 25 games, as did Cunningham and Mathews, and Randall Randall appeared in 47, Egnew was a two year starter as well It looks like the only divergence was Tannehill and Vernon, THill was really the last of the blue chip Qb's on the board (aside from Russel Wilson), and Ireland has said that he diverted to draft him, leaving Vernon as the only real non Ireland/Parcells prototype player drafted in 2012.
Keep in mind the number of snaps played is how Ireland has said he views a productive player, from that pov THill and Martin were productive. This is sort of his usual pattern, though people really don't want to hear it, the problem is as you sift through the draft the guys who fit the template tend to have less talent as they slide backwards, yet the template means they pretty much are on the draft board over say a 1 yr starter who may have more upside.
Just a note here, but games played and games started are two different aspects here, and the games started criteria that is well noted in the Bill Parcells philosophy applies more to the quarterback position than other positions.
yeah perhaps if you're only using games started as your criteria, but then again, how many drafted guys actually start less than 20 games period?
Eh, without watching every single game, could also be "starter" does not mean as much as it used to as they could have used a rotation, I suspect it has more to do with the amount of game film they generated in college. BUT, this is one of the reasons why I think they'd take Allen over Patterson if push came to shove, Patterson just does not fit with what they generally look for in players. Odd thought, but Cleveland is looking for yet another Qb of the future, wonder if Weeden or McCoy will be on the block this offseason?
I realize that. With all the starting spots Miami potentially has that are open, I just think Ireland will fill one of those holes with the 1st round pick, even if that means foregoing someone like Jones or Jordan who may not start right away, but still provides a lot of snaps played. Just my thought. If Ireland goes another way, I'm fine with it...so long as it's not Ryan Nassib.
Well, IMO, Jeff has already told us what he wants to do. When he was talking to Jim Irsay about trading Vontae Davis, what did he tell him? Something to the nature of you realize that I'm going to have to get another cornerback now. The Vontae Davis trade may have sealed the decision. Sean Smith's impending free agency likely locks it into place. Miami will draft a cornerback, likely Xavier Rhodes, at 12.
I feel like he's the best of a bad bunch when it comes to QBs after Matt Barkley. For me he's just about the only one that really notches some key qualifying points that I take into consideration. Not things I require mind you, but things I appreciate. Yet at the same time when I watch him there are still a bunch of "That's just E.J. Manuel being E.J. Manuel" moments. I do tend to forgive a bunch of those because I know the offense is so simple and predictable.
For me I've had him up in the air as possibly even as high as my #2 quarterback in the Draft. Certainly leaning closer to 2 than to 5.
that's fine, but it's a mistake imo no matter how anyone wants to over complicate it...passing on a player like this IF you could potentially get him at 12, will come back to haunt, interesting, we talk about D'ends here all offseason, yet the possibility of us resigning Starks is staring right at us, which would make all that talk moot..but we can't envision us taking a freak at outside linebacker.
