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NFL.com's Greg Rosenthall has RT17 ranked #25 QB in NFL

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by shamegame13, Dec 17, 2015.

  1. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Not sure if you are aware that Johnson had shoulder surgery on his throwing arm in the off-season before his senior year. It affected his release point and his arm strength. That's the reason there was drop in performance, lost his starting job, and didn't get drafted.
     
  2. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

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    Do you think he would have been drafted anyway? Do you think that actually mattered one bit? There are examples of flawed players or injured players who get drafted all over the league. Some work out and some dont.

    This past draft we saw a Running Back with a torn ACL get drafted in the first round and be the highest drafted back since Peterson and the first back taken in the first round in a few years. So a player with a knee injury that is potentially devastating to a skill player who plays a devalued position went at pick 8 in a very good draft and you think its relevant that a QB who had shoulder surgery before his senior year (meaning he had a full year to recover before the combine) might have been similar in draft status to Tannehill had he been fully healthy? He didnt even get drafted! In a league where half the teams are still desperately looking for their guy for the next 10 years Jerrod Johnson couldnt even get drafted. In a league where maybe 5 teams have decent backups, he still couldnt get drafted! But yet somehow hes similar to a guy who went 8th overall? I guess every Qb who every goes to TCU will be similar to noodle armed Kliff Kingsbury? I mean he had great stats right? And I guess every QB who goes to Michigan will be similar to Tom Brady? They'll be so-so college QB's and HOF pro's, amirite? Chad Henne says so!

    Jerrod Johnson didnt get drafted cause he wasnt good enough. Plain and simple. Pat White who had NO ACCURACY to speak of, not even a little bit, got drafted because we thought he could be used or developed in some way useful to the team. If you have the talent the NFL will find you. They find players at D3 schools, they find you in the CFL, they find you as UDFA's that were completely undervalued and underrated. Jerrod Johnson had a shot as a UDFA with Philly and he couldnt even make it to the practice squad. I dont know where this idea that Jerrod Johnson is similar to Ryan Tannehill just because they went to same school and played in the same system comes from. No one can tell the full story just by looking at stats. Assuming that because the school, coaching staff and stats are the same or similar means the player will be the same now? Is that what youre telling me? We're cloning players?
     
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  3. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    The goalposts will keep on moving no matter how much evidence we give. Some probably won't accept it until long after he's cut or traded.
     
  4. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

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    Ill accept it, just as I did with Henne when he fails. As far as Im concerned Years 1 and 2 were developmental but he looked like he could be a starting QB. Year 3 he looked borderline top 10 and like he might make the jump. This year has been horrible all around for the entire franchise and that doesnt exclude Tannehill. Im ok sticking with him for year 5 and seeing if a new coach changes things for him or if we draft one in round 1 and the new coach wants to go in a completely different direction.

    Personally I like Tannehill, always have but he definitely leaves some things to be desired. Some of it is his own fault and some of it is the product of possibly being "David Carr'ed" i.e. sacked and hit so much you get scared to hold the ball too long or scared to run or scared really to do anything. Ive seen glimpses of that which worries me, particularly vs the Jets.
     
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  5. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Why would you suggest that? The guy is top 3 in the NFL in YPC the last 3 seasons.....its more of just being a stupid organization than Miller not being reliable. He does his best work in the 2nd and 3rd Qtrs in games. I see nothing that tells me he gets tired or wears down.

    They throw 40+ times with a bad OL and an average at best QB because they are basically just bad decision makers. What am I missing with Lamar?
     
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  6. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    He simply is not a consistent player, last year (the year people claimed we had a budding star at QB) he still had about half of his games that frankly were inadequate. He doesn't look or play like a guy who will ever be a legitimate franchise QB. At this point best case is he develops into Alex Smith, who finally figured some things out.
     
  7. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    Honestly year 3 wasn't all that great. The offense was pretty QB friendly until it was figured out. His YPA was still low. TD to INT ratio not very impressive. Completion percentage was excellent though. Decent amount of rushing yards.

    If he can't outdo that next season, I'm not interested in him or his salary. As we've seen this season, there's plenty of other QBs that have matched or surpassed his production for way less money.


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  8. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

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    I disagree with everything there whole-heartedly. We can go back and forth on the stats and their significance til the draft and nothing will change. The game tapes don't lie. Teddy Bridgewater stats look mediocre at best this year yet his team is winning. They're a product of the tyep of football the Vikings play. Stats are as relevent as the teams record. There's only a few possible scenarios with stats...
    Good player on good team with good stats
    Good player on bad team with bad stats. (I.e. inability to elevate players possibly or severely flawed team)
    Good player on bad team with good stats
    Bad player on good team with good stats. (I.e. product of system)
    Bad player on bad team with bad stats.
    Good player on bad team with bad stats.

    Imo year 3 was C while year 4 has been F. Will the real RT17 stand up?
     
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  9. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    I say we give him at least 10 years or so more and then revisit this convo.
     
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  10. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    His injury cost him his starting job, nothing more than that, after his injury he was a different player, and what did pro scouts say about Charlie Ward, Heisman trophy winner? Again, leave pro out of the discussion, and yeah, he had a better comp %, but worse YPA, and a much worse TD/INT ratio, and nearly identical ratings, except Johnson was a smidge higher, you still have not refuted what I was saying.

    You say stats don't matter and continue to post the only stat that Tanne had that was better, and the stat that matters most is TD/INT ratio, you want to say that he was no good, but he threw over 60 TDs, those are points, points matter.
     
  11. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    It's hilarious. You are accusing us of moving the goalposts, yet we've consistently said:

    1. Offensive scheme is a problem
    2. Poor coaching was a problem
    3. Abandoning the run game is problem
    4. No audibling is a problem
    5. Terrible oline is a huge problem

    Now, the problem with those 5 things is that not a one of them is QB specific, and too many people want it to be about the QB.
     
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  12. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    You think this year has been bad player on a good team with good stats? And last year was good player on a bad team with bad stats?
     
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  13. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

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    Went back and fixed it. That'll teach me to post past 1AM. :lol:
     
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  14. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yeah, that is an argument that I've disagreed with all along. I want to say it was cbrad or Greg who did quite a bit of work trying to disprove it.
     
  15. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

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    Of course he had more TD, his team was always playing from behind. So you're a stats guys whose bad at stats? Talking about player attributes isn't bringing pro discussion in to the mix. It's talking about what the player is capable of doing.

    Your boy lost his starting job to to a player who was good enough to go top 10 in the draft, while going undrafted himself, getting outplayed by Tannehill and you still want to argue who was the better college player. Your hatred for Tannehill knows no bounds. Johnson lost the job to a guy who had been playing WR for 2 years and not really taking reps at qb and then got outplayed badly enough for Tannehill to keep the job. Again, everything I've said refuted your remark.

    Actually the stat that matters most is wins and losses and Tannehill had a better win % and you lose that too. Johnson was 13 and 17 as a starter and that's including 1 win I included where he came in in relief of injured Stephen McGee. Tannehill went 12 and 7 as a starting qb not including the game where he came in for Johnson and rallied the team to a W. So in a year and a half Tannehill managed to have a better record despite similar stats (but the same overall passer rating) and get voted as the 4th best Aggie QB EVER in the 100+ year history of that football program!
    http://tamu.247sports.com/Article/Top-Five-All-Time-Texas-AM-Quarterbacks-37694536

    2nd I didn't make a smart remark. Saying "That's cute" in response to something isn't a smart remark. If you took it as one I'm sorry...to me it's another way of saying that's a silly argument which still isn't a smart remark imo but then again my sarcasm knows no bounds so if you took it as a smart remark...I'm sorry. So yeah, you're not calling me or anyone else out on anything. When I publicly asked everyone to follow the TOS a few pages back, I never publicly called out anyone in particular.
     
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  16. SuhMe

    SuhMe Banned

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    I think we need you running this s***, can't be any worse off. What's happened to our defense these past few years smfh, 2 more weeks thank God.
     
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  17. SuhMe

    SuhMe Banned

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    My friend told me he thought the D plateaued when we had Starks and Soliai at the tail ends of their prime. I thought he was an idiot because of all the other young talent we had and the time to grow with studs like Diondra Jordan lol, sadly he was very right.
     
  18. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

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    Well Im not sure we would be better off since I've never coached football but I can assure you we wouldn't be running the same double a gap blitz scheme with off man coverage for the last 4 years since I've been complaining about it almost from day 1. It leaves holes all over the field and teams are finding it and you can tell the players have lost belief in it. Coyle got fired and we still barely altered the scheme....a full change is difficult in season.

    One thing I can tell you is we would have an identity. Im not a fan of Hybrid schemes and while i can tolerate a 43, I'm a 3-4 guy through and through. And we would be playing straight up man coverage with some press and a little off man mixed in depending on personel. Get me players to fit my scheme, move Cam Wake back to 3-4 OLB and extend his career a la what Nick Saban did with JT...but with this roster we would still be bad.
     
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  19. SuhMe

    SuhMe Banned

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    A 3-4 could do wonders for this defense if we could just find a real D.C. This secondary needs to be purged e.g Chip Jelly, hopefully we can steal Thurmond from them with Cox's massive contract on the horizon. Their secondary still isn't that good, but miles ahead of last year when they had Williams and Fletcher starting (both cut mid-season), I'm praying for similar results.
     
  20. gunn34

    gunn34 I miss Don & Dan

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    Our OL, RBs, WRs are all better then the pats and they win because they have a better QB. All this back and forth about tannehill is just everyone's opinion. I had high hopes for the guy after two years, but saw with my own eyes he's not a good QB. His career will be like Hasselbeck or Fitzpatrick at best. At worst, he's henne. Either way, we need a QB.
     
  21. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

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    If he becomes Matt Hasselbeck in his prime I think most of us would sign for that right now. 3x pro bowl, 1x nfc champ, who had a solid 10 year run killing it on short and intermediate routes. If he played at that level, you could absolutely win a Superbowl.
     
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  22. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Everyone thinks Cam Newton is great.

    Cam Newton's average QB rating his first 4 years was 85.4.
    Ryan Tannehill's average QB rating his first 4 years is 84.8 (that could still go up or down since he has 2 games left).

    So what happened this year (Cam's 5th) that shot him up to 98.9 so far?

    Well, Carolina improved their oline. Then Mike Shula, changed the offense to suit Newton. He then committed to the run as Carolina leads the league in rushing attempts with 474 (we are dead last at 285).




    Oh....and Cam Newton is allowed to audible.




    Anyone see where I'm going with this........?
     
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  23. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

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    Duh, but, duh.....Ryan Tannehill has better weapons then Newton. It doesnt matter that Tannehill cant throw from his back. /sarcasm :no:
     
  24. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    Drafting OG Trai Turner in the 3rd round a couple of years ago didn't hurt one bit.
     
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  25. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    Notice his Passer Rating goes up every season except last year when the team was terrible. Plus his Passer Rating has always been higher than Tannehill's except when Lazor's QB friendly offense was relevant. And, of course, Newton's YPA is significantly higher. Even his lowest YPA for a season is higher than Tannehill's highest. Pathetic. What's the excuse? WRs?

    Oh and there's a fatal flaw to your logic. Passer Rating doesn't include rushing yards and TDs. No contest there whatsoever, it's not even worth explaining.

    So yes, Newton is great. Muuuuuch better than Tannehill will ever be.

    Edit: oh yeah and Newton heavily contributes to the rushing attempt statline you're citing.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  26. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    Tannehill has never had a season like Cam's rookie year. If he had, I'd be far more confident in him going forward.

    Cam took the League by storm. 60pct cmp at 7.8ypa and 21 TDs. Ran for 700 and 14 more TDs. He was a force of nature. OROY, pro bowl. Carolina was +4 in the W column his rookie year. All that coming off a National Championship at Auburn. Flashes of legitimate greatness and sustained hi-level play in the pros. Tannehill's resume looks nothing like that.
     
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  27. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    The comparisons just get more and more ridiculous.


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  28. SuhMe

    SuhMe Banned

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    Oh you mean like RGBust. Tannehill has had an awful year but in truth nobody really knows what this man is capable of, probably not even Tannehill himself. The odds of us getting an upgrade at starting QB this off-season are a long shot to say the least, and with all the other problems on this team, I for one am focusing on them. Go Colts!
     
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  29. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Hmm, lemme guess who's second...Seattle???
     
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  30. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Hasn't Tannehill's rating gone up every year except for this year?
    What's the excuse for ypa? Scheme. Lack of running. Receivers who can't run crisp routes, and who don't excel at YAC (Hartline, Bess, Legedu , etc).

    These arguments crack me up, where you guys isolate one part of the argument, and act like it disproves something.

    If we're being honest, there were a ton of people down on Cam before this season. Same with Cousins, Taylor, Carr, Bortles, etc.
     
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  31. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, except his Passer Rating has likely plateaued under a QB friendly offense that has been figured out. Even then none of the crucial stats have improved much at all like YPA, YPC, TD%, total TDs, total yards.

    Newton, on the other hand, has always been a stud as a dual threat outdoing Tannehill in most important stats. Anybody that was down on Cam was mistaken. I said it then and I'll say it now, I'd take Newton over Tannehill without thinking twice. It'd be a highway robbery.


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  32. SuhMe

    SuhMe Banned

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    Yea no s***. Cam is probably going to be MVP and Tannehill has never been to the playoffs, it's like saying you'd rather take Curry over D'Angelo Russel, yea me too. I'll ask Santa.
     
  33. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    People were talking about how there were Cam Newton doubters so go tell them "no ****."


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  34. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    your comparing passing stats and leaving out rushing ones..The man has rushed for over 3,000 yards, 1500 in his first two years..there simply is no comparison because you cannot quantify how important those yards were in the context and outcome of the game..
     
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  35. SuhMe

    SuhMe Banned

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    Of course there were. He had a down year last year, a lot of Carolina fans were even doubting him from what I've heard (my friend is a big Carolina fan). But at this point in time, no one in their right mind could argue Tannehill>Cam, Cam's even younger to boot. The only real question I have with Cam long term is, are all those hits eventually going to take a toll? I'm sure even he is somewhat worried about that, no one has ever played the position like him before to my knowledge.
     
  36. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    Of course there were? In his worst year where the team was trash, he still posted more YPA than Tannehill's best year, more rushing yards and rushing TDs. His worst year with a bad team, he still had an 82.1 Passer Rating, excellent rushing stats and somehow won a playoff game. This was after he proved what he's capable of for two seasons, winning the division title again.

    The only way I would've doubted him was if his Passer Rating dropped significantly. It didn't.


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  37. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    First Wilson, now Tanne is being compared to Cam Newton??? LOL!!!!!!!!!! Classic.
     
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  38. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Don't forget he was in an accident and suffered two spinal fractures in his vertebrae.
     
  39. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    That's what I'm saying. The comparisons are laughable.


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  40. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, he could've died. That was one nasty accident.


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