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****Official 2012 MIAMI MARLINS Thread****

Discussion in 'Other Sports Forum' started by BlameItOnTheHenne, Nov 1, 2011.

  1. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    Hahaha. Hilarious. I like Escobar's skill set honestly. Better then Infante as I said before. But as far as all the locker room stuff he's clearly a joke. Marlins are just a joke at this point. (Not a jab,everyone knows this right now)
     
  2. PhinsRDbest

    PhinsRDbest Transform and Transcend Club Member

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    Filled a bunch of holes? Maybe for the Jupiter Hammerheads:pity:
     
  3. Desides

    Desides Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Hey! Being the only quad-A baseball team in the world is not a joke, it's a distinguished honor.

    :pity:
     
  4. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Houston Astros fans will disagree with that statement. Actually I think the Astros might be worse than the Marlins are. At least the Marlins have some talent in their line up with Stanton and Morrison and a decent bullpen. Houston has Altuve and maybe Lowrie and then just nothing.
     
  5. Desides

    Desides Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That makes Houston a really good triple-A team.
     
  6. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Good point.
     
  7. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    Some very powerful people that I know....are getting ready to put the HURT to this Marlin Regime.

    Think "sponsorship" dollars....
     
    PhinsRDbest likes this.
  8. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    Ya know, I don't even mind the trading all of these guys, and if we could get some kind of guarantee that the team is going to reinvest the money saved (and not necessarily all at once, or even at all this season), I'd understand that line of thinking.

    There are very real baseball reasons for trading these guys.
    • Buck is self explanatory.
    • Boni is a nothing piece.
    • JJ is oft-injured, possibly on the decline and an impending FA.
    • Buerhle is old as ****, is very overpaid (will be making almost $20m over the next few seasons), and is possibly beginning a decline as well (he had his third lowest ERA+ of his career).
    • Reyes is the guy that makes the least amount of sense, but his salary does take a huge jump in a few years as he's reaching an age where his legs start to go. It's not unforgivable to move him for the right pieces, and would even be applauded if this franchise didn't have a history of mismanagement and distrust.

    Even with all of those players on this team, it's still going to be really ****ty, so it would make sense to move them, re-tool, reinvest, and start over.

    The problem I have is, the compensation just isn't enough. These guys should have been sold off individually over the offseason to maximize their return. Not seemingly bundled in a box, put up for auction and sold to the highest bidder within an hour.

    And at this point, I don't trust them to reinvest that money into the team.
     
  9. finsincebirth

    finsincebirth Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Mainge, get the **** out of my head. This is basically the same thing I was saying to Sick on Facebook yesterday. It does make sense to get rid of those guys for the reasons you listed. Also, they did get a handful of top 10 prospects out of the Jays organization (although I do wish we would have received more). I'm naively hoping here that the team might have learned that big name free agents aren't always the way to go and are trying to fix a lackluster farm system. I would love to see this team shift into a Rays like focus where they draft and groom their own talent. We already do this to an extent, but we need to start keeping these guys and not trading them off. That's what I was hoping for from this new stadium. Not a $100+ million dollar pay roll, but just paying and keeping the guys that deserve it. One of the ways this team can lessen some of my ire is taking some of this extra cash and signing Stanton long term. Right now I still don't trust them but maybe they do have a plan. Or maybe I just suffer from battered fan syndrome.
     
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  10. Anonymous

    Anonymous Well-Known Member

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    I agree, although it was a year too early with Buehrle.

    Even if they reinvest the money, I don't trust their decision making. They can't field a good team.
     
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  11. Desides

    Desides Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't get why we're saying getting rid of Reyes due to his contract is a good thing. Consider who offered him that contract.
     
  12. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    I think signing Reyes to that kind of backloaded contract, getting elite production for a low annual salary for a few seasons, and selling him for a few plus prospects as he begins his decline and starts making $22m annually, would be an extremely good thing.

    But we sold him for peanuts. That's why it's ****ty.
     
  13. Anonymous

    Anonymous Well-Known Member

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    I would have waited a little until we traded him, but it's basically what Mainge said.

    The fact that we didn't get D'Arnaud back is ridiculous.
     
  14. PhinsRDbest

    PhinsRDbest Transform and Transcend Club Member

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    So is Carlos Lee a free agent? If not how is he still on this team?
     
  15. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    Yes.
     
  16. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    I think that's the main issue and why everyone is up and arms about it, they simply don't trust ownership to put the money back into the team especially after they just opened up a brand new stadium.

    I mean the Red Sox did the exactly same thing only 3 months ago but no one was going crazy about it because they know that it's the Red Sox so eventually their payroll will be higher again. Of course the other reason why this trade looks bad for the Marlins is because, and sorry but cue up the Dodger jokes, the Jays weren't dumb enough to give the Marlins anything. They probably told Miami "look if we're going to be taking on all this money we're not giving you our best prospects so if you want a better player(s) then you have to send us more money back" unlike the Dodgers where they said "we'll take all the contracts back and give you some good prospects in return". The return for those players were light.

    I agree I think the Marlins might have been able to get more back if they traded each of the 3 main players individually or in a smaller package.
     
  17. Samphin

    Samphin Κακό σκυλί ψόφο δεν έχει

    Selig is looking into this trade, but has already been informed by independent baseballpeoplethattheMarlins "did good."

    You know what? Fire Selig too.
     
  18. Anonymous

    Anonymous Well-Known Member

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    He won't veto, but he could at least make them add more to it.
     
  19. PhinsRDbest

    PhinsRDbest Transform and Transcend Club Member

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    Are these baseball people Stephen Ross?
     
  20. Desides

    Desides Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The purpose of free agency isn't to acquire prospects later. It's to make your team better now.

    As for the contracts and the money, that's completely irrelevant to us, as it's not our money, so I personally do not care what Jose Reyes' salary is.
     
  21. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    This is incredibly short sighted. My idea isn't to acquire prospects. My idea is to be good. Jose Reyes last year making as little money as he was, is desirable because it frees up more money to acquire more talent. It's very simple math.

    Let's say the Marlins have a budget of 100 dollars. Let's also say, on average, 1 dollar will buy you 1 unit of production. In this model, let's say Reyes is making 10 dollars, and is providing the Marlins with 20 units of production (2 UoP per $1 dollar). If you use up the rest of the budget with league value, the Marlins team will have 110 units of production.

    Now let's let Reyes' contract makes it to the backloaded portion, where he's also declining. Reyes is making 20 dollars, and is only providing 10 units of production (0.5 UoP per $1 dollar). Filling out the rest of the budget with league value, this Marlins team will have 90 units of production.

    Ideally, when a player is going to be overpaid like Reyes will be when he reaches those backloaded years, that players contract should be purged and reinvested. You trade Reyes, reinvest that salary with league average value (or hopefully better), and you end up with a Marlins team that has 100 units of production. Which scenario is more desirable? Option A where Reyes is in the backloaded years where the Marlins have 90 units of production? Or Option B where the Marlins have 100 unit of production and prospects?

    That also exemplifies why "It's not my money, contracts are irrelevant to us" is nonsense. My favorite team has a limited pool of resources, and if a player is overpaid, it affects my team's ability to win games.
     
  22. Desides

    Desides Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This team is now worse, though. It's impossible to say that this trade is going to make us good because we have no idea how these players are going to turn out. It made us less expensive, but again, I don't care about that. I do not care about any player's salary. That's the front office's problem, and I never, ever consider correcting a contractual mistake to be legitimate compensation.

    This is a bit of a silly stance to me, considering how much money the Marlins have pocketed over the last decade from revenue sharing. Last season's payroll didn't come out of nowhere. Factor in the lack of a salary cap and we have a situation where this team does not have a limited pool of resources, or at least the pool of resources is much larger than you make it out to be. The Marlins are fully capable of sustaining at least a mid-range payroll around $80 million without a problem. This is more than enough to field a very good roster.

    But again, my stance on money is not that we should ignore contracts. My stance on money is that not paying a contract anymore is not in and of itself compensation in a trade deal. So suggestions that, for example, we didn't get D'Arnaud because Toronto now has to pay a lot more money to the players they're acquiring makes me roll my eyes.
     
  23. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    I don't think you read my original point thoroughly. I said If there was a guarantee that we would reinvest the money saved from these players traded, I could understand the trade.

    Because if reinvested that money wisely, we would likely be a better team than we were before the trade, as well as received some decent prospects. It seems that's unlikely, however, which is why the trade sucks.

    .

    We didn't get D'Arnaud because the FO is incompetent, not because Toronto took on those contracts. I happen to agree that we could sustain a legitimate payroll of $80m. I think you misinterpreted my use of "limited resources," I did not mean to say we have a small pool of resources, but rather we don't have a limitless one.

    Which is why having an overpaid player is a problem, and why I disagree with you saying shedding that salary isn't compensation in and of itself. Again, if a player is overpaid, and you're getting 10 units of production for 20 dollars, but on average, that should be getting you at least 20 units of production, then you owe it to yourself to clear out that salary and reinvest it.
     
  24. Desides

    Desides Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I know your position but I was trying to better outline mine. And I believe that the trade sucks in and of itself without need to evaluate what might follow. I'm a little tired of trading proven upper tier players for a bunch of mid-level-at-best potential.

    If my interpretation of David Samson's appearances on Le Batard the last two days is correct, we didn't get D'Arnaud becuse he isn't Hispanic.

    All resources are limited by definition. Nothing is infinite. But we can certainly expend more resources than are currently allocated. But we won't.

    I disagree that going from 10 units of production for 20 dollars to 2 units of production for 3 dollars is a good deal. That's less production.
     
  25. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    I'd rather trade overpaid proven guys for mid-level prospects , and then use that savings to go sign more proven guys of the same caliber.

    Probably.

    Probably. It sucks a lot.

    And then after signing that 3 dollar player, you reinvest the rest of the 17 dollars on league average value. Then you go from 10 units of production for 20 dollars, to 19 units of production for the same amount.

    I'm not advocating lowering payroll. I'm advocating spending the same amount of money more efficiently.
     
  26. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    When we start fielding units of production instead of players this will all make sense.

    The fact is this front office doesn't give two ****s about winning. It's not like we acquired his contract via trade. WE wrote it.
     
  27. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    You obviously missed the point
     
  28. Desides

    Desides Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Efficiency is fine. But there are no players out there in FA that, combined with the players we acquired in this trade, will result in 20 units of production for 19 dollars. Not happening.

    We're basically waving the white flag on the next couple of seasons a year after a rather hope-filled season with a roster that I believe is being given up on too soon.

    Same ol' Marlins.
     
  29. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    Probably not this year entirely, but certainly over the next few seasons.

    Like I said, I don't have a problem trading these players. We were going to be bad next season anyway. I have a very big problem, though, with the compensation, and a very big problem with the owner not reinvesting the money.
     
  30. Anonymous

    Anonymous Well-Known Member

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    Any word on Bud Selig's review on the trade?
     
  31. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    Sorry guys.

    There's plenty of room on the Mets bandwagon. You're all welcome to join!
     
    Mainge likes this.
  32. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    Also, pls trade us Stanton. You can have Zack Wheeler.
     
  33. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    I'm good.
     
  34. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    He's not overturning it. He said it for the PR. Selig and the MLB FO reviews every trade.
     
  35. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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  36. #1 fan

    #1 fan Well-Known Member

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    Also, I read somewhere that the players are now loosing 45% of their checks due to taxes by living in Canada. That's a 14% increase. I'd be really pissed if that happened to me.
     
  37. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    No I completely get it.

    The issue is that you can't actually place any "unit of production" statistic onto a player or project what it will be in a few seasons. You have players who are not static. In baseball a guy can have a career year and then his worst season the next.

    My point is that if we were going to do this, we shouldn't have signed him at all to such a long contract. You either think he is a player that can help you win now and so you live with the extra years (like Pujols) or you don't think he can help you win and so you don't sign him to a massive contract.

    The fact is we thought Reyes could help us win now which leaves us with two equally bad options.

    A) Reyes was never worth the contract and was a mistake by the FO. (I think he got more than he's worth but not by a lot so I don't agree with this option)

    B) We are no longer in any sort of "win now" scenario. We are rebuilding again and will suck for the next......well however long Loria owns the team.
     
  38. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Yeah that's correct. And I'd be upset too. I feel bad for the Buerhle family dog the most though.
     
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  39. muscle979

    muscle979 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's a shame they're going to have to give their dog away probably. Honestly I would be outraged if I were Buerhle.
     
  40. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    Of course there isn't such as UoP. I was using that as a model to illustrate why it could be beneficial to move him. You don't need to remind me of the volatility of baseball.

    However, I also don't think it's going out on a limb to say that Jose Reyes is going to see a decline in the next few seasons. Maybe it's not a precipitous but a player like Reyes who's value is derived completely from his legs, it's almost guaranteed to happen.

    This is ridiculous.

    Players are traded all of the time mid-contract. This happens because, as you said, baseball isn't static. You're saying the Red Sox shouldn't have moved the players they did? What about the Yankees? If they had an opportunity to shed A-Rod's contract, they should just say "Nah, we're good." and hang up?

    Come on, man.
     

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