In my opinion, responding to someone voicing a criticism or concern about a player that is legitimately struggling in practice as 'freaking out' or 'over-reacting' is defensive and homerish. Martin isn't performing very well right now at LT, and in light of all the attention Ireland payed to that position in the off-season, coupled with Martin's struggles last season, that is not something you want to see as a fan. Not one single person on this site has suggested Martin can not or will not improve as the preseason goes on... only that his inability to protect the QBs in practice so far is a big red flag. I happen to agree with that, 100%. If you don't think that's a concern, in my opinion, you're just living in denial, burying your head in the sand, drinking the Koolaid, or whatever you want to call it.
But again, it isn't the voicing concern in a rational and calm manner that anyone takes issue with. We ALL have concerns over Martin and the RG position. It is the overly negative tones and declarations of doom and that the coaches are blind to the issues that are being ridiculed or refuted... The coaches know they have to address these positions and make plans to negate any issues there. What some others are saying is that we need to wait for a couple of pre-season and maybe real games first and see how Martin performs and how the coaches are going to address the issue. If Martin is struggling, then expect to see Turner, Sherman, and Philbin addressing the issue.
It's just so unconscionable that there are no OT's in camp to even challenge him for the position. HTH, do you just give the LT position to a player like this???????????? Clabo is clearly RT only and Garner showed last year that he just can't handle playing OT. He is a backup OG and a #3 center. No viable players were signed or drafted. The least he could have done was spend the 5th on a OT instead of a kicker. What about depth????? It's one thing to be horribly weak at LT, but having no depth at all just makes it much worse. Ireland is an idiot.
Don't know how many practices any of us here have been at to determine just exactly how bad or good Martin has been performing. It's obvious that he hasn't been as bad as many on these forums and the local media are saying because the staff hasn't made any moves to indicate exactly what kind of job he's actually doing... Have they initiated any trades for LTs ?? I don't know for sure, but who other than Thomas has taken any snaps at Lt and certainly Thomas hasn't been close enough to supplant Martin as of yet... How exactly are you determining that he is 'not good'....based on OmarK and Mando ?? Who's disingenuous now ?? Look, there is are no reports that he's struggling. There are reports that he's allowed some would be sacks, but in all fairness to him, is that a valid sense of what is happening ?? All we hear is that on this play or that play he was beaten. It's just too easy to blame him for Jordan being pretty good or VO improving from last year at this point... I'm not saying he's terrible or that he's better than last season or that he's an All Pro shoe-in...what I am saying is that none of us have enough information, even with his results last year where he had to move to an opposite position in his rookie campaign, to make any definitive decisions on where he is or where he should be or where he will be YET....
Understand and understood. Top five prospects going into the draft.. Dion Jordan/Sheldon Richardson/Tavon Austin/Tyler Eifert/Dee milliner So what your saying is, if I was so down on Martin at left tackle I should of been more open to drafting a lineman?.. It's a valid question..I thought we would bring in some competition for the kid..
Wait...I heard last year that Garner was a jack of all trades and could fill in at any position (including OT) along the line ?? So you are now determining that what the staff is doing is "unconscionable"?? Thomas was drafted....He may be behind, but viable is a term that could be used on him... Ireland is the same idiot that acquired Wake, VO, Jordan, Jones, Tanny, Keller, Wallace, Gibson, Pouncey, RI....oh wait, that was all Quitcells...
This is an example of what Fin and Gm are talking about...there's no perspective of the total job being done, clearly a bias, capitalizing and sensationalizing a weakness to fit the agenda of the poster..jmo.
Martin, Dallas Thomas, Donald Thomas, Shawn Murphy, John Jerry, Andrew Gardner...the list of OL Ireland's taken outside of the 1st round....that's one ugly group.
Whatever are you talking about?? I had enough information two years ago to absolutely hate the draft pick. Martin was grossly overdrafted. He should have been drafted in the 4-5 round area and not have been expected to start for 2 or 3 years. Lot's of scouts had him projected to be an NFL swing tackle all along. I wasn't the only one who thought he was either going to take awhile or not even become a starter. Yes, there was a ton of hype and some had him a 1st round prospect but I hadn't forgotten Levi Brown and I saw the same thing with Martin and Ireland should have also; it was his job to see through the hype. Ireland is an idiot.
Larry, I agree with everything you're saying in the second paragraph. Even though we did draft Dallas Thomas in the 3rd round, who from Day 1 the team was planning on playing on the left side, it may not have been enough. We flirted with a lot of guys, including our own Jake Long, but in the end, as I've said in another thread, the GM/coaches took a calculated risk. First, in the draft, when they could have taken one of the top two or three LTs, they moved up and took a (what looks like top-notch) defensive player. Then, they didn't ever signed any of the Long's, Winston's, McKinney's that were out there with the exception of Clabo, who we did sign, but is a definite RT. Whether the reward trumps the risk is yet to be seen, and I think everyone has some trepidation with Jonathan Martin at LT. I haven't heard anyone say anything sure that he looks like a solid foundation there at this time. Some of us still hold out hope that he will be a late bloomer. But expressing concerns is one thing. It's rants such as the following that I think most of us cringe at: First of all, as has been reported, they have been giving Dallas Thomas some time with the 1s. Second, Thomas was drafted with the thought that he'd be playing on the left side of the line, as I mentioned, from Day 1. I'm not even a Jeff Ireland fan (sort of neutral), but the Ireland-bashing could really just go away (along with some of the repeated punctuation). But there's a lot of these types of posts, and in my opinion, this is what the original thread was pertaining to.
The chart based on PFF's scoring had the following for Martin's run blocking for the five games at LT: Good, Good, Good, Great, Awful. Since his run blocking at RT earlier in the year had him as bad or awful in 7 of his 11 starts there, I would call that clear improvement. In pass pro he struggled against better pass rushers but was fine against the average guys. That means that like most Ts, you have to give him help against the Mario Williams or the Justin Smiths. For this season I see that as a concern for four games. The two Bills games (Williams) and the two Pats games (Chandler Jones). But I would be just as concerned if we had retained Long or signed Albert or drafted Johnson. http://www.thephinsider.com/2013/2/...eason-in-review-offensive-line-trench-warfare I think you're information is inaccurate and your opinion seems biased towards anything related to Ireland.
Some were right there with you on not wanting to draft Martin, but you can't generalize the job being done because of an acute case that hasn't fully played out yet. Lets just say good scouts/GMs get it right 60% of the time.,they all have their misses or their prospects that take more time than others, Ozzie newsome drafted a linebacker in the 2nd round, he's considered a great GM ( which I agree with) his 2nd round linebacker was at 300 lbs last year...everyone makes mistakes in the game, or miscaculations, it's all about who gets it right more times than wrong.,shrinking that percentage of difference relative to the other guys is the goal.. So when you say he's an idiot, it's not because he just drafted Martin, it's because you think he's done a horrible job since he took over for Parcells?
I wouldn't categorize a grade of 0.1 as good. He was more like average, average, average, very good, and bad.
Whatever terminology or semantic deviations you would apply, the point was that he clearly was better later in the year. That invalidates any claim that he did not improve.
Your hate won't even let you see how silly your distinction is. The results are the same from what they said to what you said, you just gave the labels different names. I can say it was "pizza, pizza, pizza, steak, and tuna fish" and you, me and PFF are all saying the same thing. lol.
What indications are there that he's less than average? How about his performance and grading from last year's season worth of performances, including 3 or 4 games at LT. Do some reasearch, look it up, you'll find it. It's been more than Omar, or Mando talking about Martin getting beaten regularly all TC so far. Maybe it is getting blown out of proportion because Long is gone, and Martin is replacing him. Who knows, I agree we can't decide that until we see them on the field. As I said, just look at his rankings and gradings and performances on tape from last year, he wasn't very good. Combine that, with the reports in training camp so far and its easy to see why people are concerned, or even panicking.
Ah my bad Deej, I wasn't referring to you, I was talking about people who are generally negative about pretty much everything being up to their old tricks again. You're an even keeled guy and I love reading your stuff. No issues with that you had to say at all. As for the the draft, who knows? I certainly don't. Maybe Austin is a star and Jordan flops, maybe its the other way around, maybe they both do well or both flop, it's way too early. My point was that I'm well aware of the OL issues and have been for a while. That's why I was in favor of going all in to fix it in the draft. Hard to throw deep to Mike Wallace if you don't have an OL who can consistently generate a decent sized pocket. But I'm still willing to reserve judgement until I see Martin at least get a few games under his belt. And if I can reserve judgement then so can the Austin, Milliner, Eifert, etc fans...IMO. If I were a coach I'd double up on Martin's reps, send my best rushers at him daily and tell them to make it their business to beat his *** every single day. If Martin struggles, good, I want him to struggle. I want all of camp to be a nightmare for him and I don't care how many "sacks" he gives up b/c the QB isn't being hit and the goal is to get better each day, not to impress the beat writers. I'm not at the practices so I don't know how much of that is going on but I'm confident that the coaches are getting a good feel for where he's at so that when the season starts they'll now if/how much they need to account for Martin in their game plans. There are ways to work around a sub par LT and it's not like Martin is going to be facing Cam Wake or Julius Peppers every week.
Via Omar Kelly: "Watching O-line specifically today. Jonathan Martin is doing fine. Dion Jordan is getting beat up by Will Yeatman. Starting D-line resting."
Is there a way to give this post Ten (10) Fist Pumps? I would if I could! Lets wait at least until after the 3rd preseason game, then panic over the OL, if really necessary. Excellent post!
