Fact: If you added all the debt the past 43 presidents have contributed to the National debt it wouldn't even come close to what Obama's administration is going to add Thoughts
In all seriousness: Who cares? Who the heck is repaying that much money? We have no real leaders with any touch of reality in terms of economic spending. Unless you or me ends up running this country we're screwed because we're the only ones who realize its doesnt cost 20k for a toilet seat cover. The American dollar isn't the same, the perception of this country isnt the same, but more importantly there's going to come a point where other countries will stop lending us money and that is where the real problems will happen. It will get even worse when they ask us to pay back what we have already borrowed and we wont be able to. It will get much worse eventually. It isnt a failure of capitalism, its a failure by our leaders to spend smarter. Its a failure by our leaders to realize certain programs both social, military and otherwise just aren't sound fiscal decisions. I wouldn't particularly single out Obama but I will say Bill Clinton was the only one who knows how to balance a budget.
Clinton.....ahhh yes Clinton.......simple philosophy....don't spend more then you make or take in. Are you suggesting that we should just over look it because you don't feel we can pay it back. It wouldn't surprise me if this became the accepted answer since we are a hypocritical nation. What happened to being an American and that meant paying back what you borrowed. Kind of like repaying your mortgage....ehhhhhh Kind of sad when Our word isn't worth anything anymore. It really is frustrating to see our country slowly eroding. That's the worse part, it's slow death. This is why in the other thread I suggested a law to force fiscal responsibility. It's not these politicians money so they don't give a sh*t. The only way to force what we need is to make it a law. History has proven that. If you now another way or have an idea .....please - I am all ears!!!!!!(or should I say Pennington) lol Doesn't matter democrat or republican.....all these parties are good for is screwing things up and then blaming each other for the problems. Constant bickering and childish behavior is the norm and has become accepted practice......what a joke
Im not suggesting its right to overlook it but I am suggesting that is what has been happening for much of the last half century with the one noted, undeniable exception. Whether it is right or wrong, and it is wrong in my opinion, the national debt is a joke. No one takes it seriously because it is all in paper dollars right now with minimal impact on our everyday lives. One day when everything crumbles under the weight of such a large economic burden then people will take it seriously. It may take that for some people to understand what you are talking about. And as far as our word being worth anything....it hasn't been worth anything for years. I mean how much can words be worth in a society that steals from the poor to give to the wealthy (see for reference: The entire Bush Administration). I agree with you that our country is suffering a slow death, worst of all its addressed as progress. Our morals stink, our goals are all fiscal because that is all people are taught to understand, and our unwillingness to make progress in our societal deficiency in math and science causes us to fall behind in those areas of innovation and sustainable businesses. I agree it is a problem for all parties of government to handle but they are too inept to realize its a problem in the first place. Sadly, the only ones who realize the problem are you and I.
Well said. Being self employed since the age of 18 (now 40), I feel this overwhelming need to do something to make a difference. Only problem is I am only me and I don't believe I could ever make a difference. It's a shame we live among the "dead" as I like to call them. I of course, am not referring to any of the posters here. These "dead" take, take, take. They are a constant burden on society. Call them what you will. Elected officials who do very little if anything during the time we elect them except campaign for reelection. Satus Quo is cool.....so nothing gets done. Those days are over. I want to organize a peaceful revolution for change. Not "pocket change" as proposed by Obama but real sink your teeth into stuff and it all starts with a balanced budget. I would raise gasoline taxes .50 cents a gallon and cap the price of gasoline in the USA. No more would the economy be driven by big oil. I would make lobbyist's illegal. You can't talk to a juror during deliberations or anytime during trial so why should big companies have the ability to sway the votes of our senators and other elected officials. Pork would be illegal. That would just be the start. I guarantee you if we put out a thread on how the government should be run, we could come up with enough ways to be ultra efficient and prosperous.
Thank you, I'll take up your challege. The first thing I would insist is that we do away with the Fed and go back to making our own money. If you are up for that I'm your guy!
You must be one of the 51%. Exactly, what I would expect. Nothing of substance and part of the problem. How's your retirement coming along???????????
I apologize if I offended you and I didn't mean to be an a$$. I was trying to use that to stress a point and I went to far I am Sorry!!!
I'll accept that and while doing so, cause I may be dense, explain the point you were trying to make because I am truly interested in discussing this problem of ours. IMHO it's the one thing that will bring this country down.
Gafinfan, I see your avatar and it is of a young man who has obviously served our country in the Navy. I can tell the picture is older. I also surmised that your age is indeed 67 by what you have listed. I believe with all my being that the downfall of this country will not be from a nuclear bomb or a huge solar flare like we have been discussing recently. Our downfall will be our inability to pay this debt. It is beginning to haunt us now. It will only get worse. It is frustrating and I am scared to death that Obama is leading this country to ruin. We CANNOT spend the kind of money he is going to spend without having a plan. There is little if any understanding of the problems we currently have by the administration charged with fixing it. The only answer is to throw money at everything. Will it improve things.....sure it will right around the time it's time to get reelected....... What happens when the money runs out???? Where is the plan to pay it back?????? Where is the plan to fix the under lying causes of the problems we now face. All I've heard is I will cut the deficit to 1/2 by 2011. That still leaves 750 billion dollar deficits indefinitely. Where's the plan to carry this extra debt....or pay for it. There isn't any. You can't cut taxes and do what we are doing....we are in for massive tax increases!!!!! Social security is being ignored. When are we gonna throw some money at it, once it's to late???? What bothers me even more is the out and out I don't give a sh*t attitudes more then 50% of all the people I talk to have. Seems to me most of them voted for the guy and don't have the balls to stand up and say hey wait a minute.....you said it would cost money but not 12 trillion dollars. Are you freaking kidding me 12 trillion dollars in 5 years...........................There are more then a few posters on this very board who think status Que is okay....it's cool....shoot why bother it's been this way for ever......isn't that the problem that has got us were we are. I made reference to your retirement because I know you probably had a nice nest egg which is probably worth about 40% of what it is. You made a comment that was sarcastic about printing our own money, axing the Fed and you were the guy. I believe the Fed is needed for obvious reasons, protection, social order, etc. You basically were insinuating that the government was doing a fine job, which in fact is wrong. Everything government touches get's screwed up...name just one thing that they have touched that hasn't. So to prove your thought process is flawed I referred you to your retirement savings and how well the government has run things. If they were doing such a good job we wouldn't be in this mess. Remember Clinton......."Every American should have the ability to be a home owner. Today by signing this bill I have made this a possibility" Look what the banks did ....went and lent money to people who had no business buying a home.....why because they made money off them, packaged them up in bundles and sold them on the market. How about NAFTA?? All the manufacturing jobs have gone overseas, do you blame these companies....why make it here when you can pay 1/4 the labor and make 3x's the profit because you just ship it back Tariff free. You want to bring job's back to the USA tariff the sh*t out of everything imported. We have to start making what we consume again. I could go on and on but i won't bore you!!!!! Regards Gerry
Cripes...come to my house sweety... To make this really stick, the college age folks who plan on reaping some benefits from their hard work and studies and debt in the form of increased income must be shown the iron fact of...that simply will not happen with this high of a debt and Monetization level. Literally, their future earning power is being sold down for short term cash.
Thanks Gerry for your answer. First of all let me say yes, I'm 67 (68 in two more days), I sure wish I was as well fixed as you seem to imply trust me I'm not by a long shot and yes this fall has hurt bad. None the less I'm fine and will make it (a hard old bird)! I'm sorry you took my remarks as sarcasm, they weren't. I meant every word, we must get out from under the Fed. I started a thread alittle while back showing how our liberty was lost in 1913 because of Wilson signing the Federal reserve act. I invite you to to chart our debt history from our begining to 1913 and compare that to our debt history from 1913 until today. Our founding fathers greatest fear was of a central banking system, it was the true reason they chose to break from England. Its all there for you, or anyone, to see. A prime example of us printing our own money versus the Fed (or any central banking system that charges interest on our own money). Take a look at the way Lincoln paid for the WONA. He printed the country's money, Congress made a study of this not long ago and found by doing so Lincoln saved future generations some 400 billion in interest over time. I don't have that link in front of me but I promise you I will find it to prove that my statement is true. I, too, am scared to death as to the direction we are headed not for myself but for my children and your children and yes even those americans who seem to not care at all as to where this is going. IMHO the very second our debt takes over our GNP we are dead. If you were a banker would you loan money to someone who owes more than they make? That is where we will be; no later than 2040 if this mess doesn't change and QUICK! Now I'm not one of those who see a black helo behind every tree but here is something else for you to chew on. Three presidents have bucked a Central banking system head on in our history: Jackson, Lincoln, and Kennedy. Jackson is the only one to survive the threat. Kennedy was well on the way to breaking the Fed by printing some 48 billion by the time he was killed, it was all pulled and burned, check it out. http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/JFKvFedR.html?q=JFKvFedR.html I was, and still am, most serous about discussing this issue with you. I see it as the one internal threat that can, and WILL, bring this country to its knees. Your friend, Ron To do this will take a very brave President, I feel Obama doesn't have it in him, he claims to study Lincoln, and while Lincoln claimed to indorse a central system when push came to shove he backed away from doing so, thank god, IMHO that act was the one reason Lincoln deserves that Marble monster in Washington! I just had to come back and add, as you well know, the ONLY way to get out of CCdebt is to quit using the "Damn" card! Its our only chance to give future generations a taste of freedom; stop using the Fed!!
There is no way Obama has this in him. There is no doubt that Obama desires deeply to have a legacy we will all remember. The question is does he understand how it works...........no way.......no how.......not any day. Then of course comes the other question....if he did does, does he have the Kahonas to due something about it. I really appreciate you schooling me on this.....That is a supurb article and I am deeply greatful for the lesson. If the general public only knew how things really worked. Oh how the rich get richer. It's all one big grand illusion all the way down to the freaking name.......Federal Reserve Gee are you thinking what I am thinking...is this the REAL reason Kennedy was wacked????
Just ask yourself, who would have more reason? Yes I agree Obama doesn't have it in him to pull it off which means our next best chance is 2010/2012. Here is what I see at 2012, we will have one of three roads to take 1. do nothing (the Fed hoping that something turns this around) you know that will NEVER happen you can't spend your way out of debt!!! 2. The people behind all of this plunge us into a hellish war (the way they make their real money) and things ease up a bit. or 3. We get lucky and elect someone with a real backbone who truly understands the problem and loves this country so much he's not afraid to do the right thing at the very time the right thing needs and must be done. IMHO. My Mom had a saying "Play your hand like you have nothing to lose, pray for the best expect the worse and you won't be disappointed." If we can get enought people to understand where this is headed, you can see the backing Ron Paul has so there are people who understand and know the truth, this thing can be delt with. It sure as hell won't be easy because alot of what you have suggested will have to take place but it can be done, I know. How, because I had to do it myself in the 80's after my divorce supporting an ex and 3 kids, tearing up all the cards and living on alot of peanutbutter crackers but I made it. As tom Horn once said " they may kill you but they don't eat you." or words to that effect. Had to come back and add this, don't know if you saw it, you might enjoy reading. http://forums.thephins.com/showthread.php?t=29902 Sad that no one made any comments.
IMHO no one making any comments is the biggest problem and obstacle. Getting people involved that give a sh*t!!!!! Only now after I am done slamming people in general will someone comment and it will undoubtedly be a jab at me. People in general don't give a sh*t!!! Some care a little....enough to come on here and argue back and forth....it's your fault.....no it's your fault. Yes he did.......no he didn't.......and so forth. Thing is if people put forth just 1/2 of the energy they do arguing the economy of this country and the banking system would be the best in the world....the healthyist anyway. I love economics put I hate it's evil twin Politics. It is amazing how f'd up things have become. What drives me absolutely crazy is the peddyness and the acceptance of meritocracy. This is a darn Football web site and 90% of all the people on here demand more from their football team then they do the government; I'm not talking about being given things either. If we could only reverse that trend what a different country this would be!!!!!!!
The alternative to Obama spending all the money he has is 20-25% unemployment and a drastic change in everyone's quality of life. I'd likely no longer have access to student loans. I don't want to live in the country if Obama doesn't spend the money to ease the pain of a deep recession. He's also spending money to invest in long-overdue projects like railroad and electric medical records. Does $53T in unfunded entitlements scare the poop out of me? Absolutely. Do I want the country to carry all this debt? NO. The alternative right now is 20-25% unemployment and all that would entail. This is a grand experiment in Keynesian economics and we'll see how it all works. I'm going to give our President the benefit of the doubt, especially since I don't think I would have done anything different.
Keynesian didn't understand economics........ check this video out....listen to what the guy is saying carefully http://forums.thephins.com/showthread.php?t=29476
Personally I agree with everything you say and cannot comment on much of anything. Check out my posts/threads and you will find I hate all politicians that spend money we do not have and 120% feel that this will be the downfall of our country. I have stated many times in the past that we cannot envision what could happen due to this spending so we cannot grasp the possibilities....many here prefer to argue gifts to the UK or telprompters which is fine entertainment but does not get to the issues...and some support whatever the current POTUS does so there is no use in trying to frame a logical discussion that encompasses open ended possibilities.......IMHO....and great thread BTW......
Lab, with all due respect, its not about what he spends or how much as it is "the fact that he is borrowing the money from the Fed to do it". You CAN NOT spend your way out of credit card debt by borrowing more money on that credit card. Surely you understand that fact. It works no different for governments than it does for you and I. Will you sell your children's lives away to live in a third world country in their day just so you don't have to pay the piper now? Because right now thats what we are doing, believe it! Someone will HAVE to pay the bill, we either man up and do it or we are cowards and pass it on!
OK 2socks heres the start of my plan! Now that we are on the same page I want to share some thoughts with you on just how we get out of this mess without killing the golden egg. Just what are our pluses? 1. We have untapped oil reserves. 2. We feed the world. Who owns us? 1. Japan 2. China 3. The Mid East Oil Barons Our number one move is to reinact Kennedy's Presidential order and start printing our own money thereby cutting off the Fed's interest charge to us. Number two, we not only become Oil independent we rebecome major oil sellers. Now just who are our two biggest buyers? Why China and Japan, of course. WE buy our way out of debt by using our resorces. We can slowly pay off the MidEast because we will no longer buy their oil. Number three, we stop using SS surplus to prop up our spending there by extending the life of SS until we can replace the funds that have been stolen by the Government. Which will make it solvent again as it should have been all along, we owe it to every person who has paid into the system and has allowed the Government to steal from them without complaint. We have a 10 year moratorium on spending, the government can't spend anything it doesn't take in and we freeze prices so that people can eat and survive. Taxes are frozen in place, also, across the board. Bad debt is wiped out and forclosures are halted. Cerdit cards are eleminated for those not having savings of atleast $100,000.00 (in reserve at all times) Credit Card interest is frozen at 15% with 5% of that interest going towards paying down the debt. We get out of ALL overseas intanglement and out of NATO. We shut down the UN; if they want to meet let Europe supply a place for them. I want us out of the world police business until or unless we can afford it or are dragged kicking and screaming into it again by war. We secure our borders and send all illegals home to their mother country. We make English our offical language. We shut down Homeland Security and we double our CIA human intell. All of these moves are intended to 1. get us out of debt, 2. Regain our national soveranty, 3. Return to the American people their full civil liberties, and last but surely not least hand down to our children and their children the freedom that was paid for in blood by our founders and all the others since then who have fought the good fight. I'm sure this won't cover everything but its a good start and I'll add my thoughts on trade in my next installment. Now you're my sounding board; hit me with your best shot.
The start Part II of “The plan.” We are 50+ Trillion in debt over all with 3 major countries holding much of that debt; Japan, China, and the Middle Eastern countries. At this point in time we can assume that Japan is on our side not so much because we are friends but because we have similar enemies, China. China and Japan have always had this thing about each other and that won’t change anytime soon, thank goodness!! For those of you who think just because we have the coolest Jet in the skies and 12 Super Carriers while the rest of the world has zilch I would like you to take a look back into world history a moment and reflect that war is not always won with gun fire! In the 50’s Egypt forcibly took control of the Suez Canal, well the Brits said we’ll just see about that and so they and the French set about to take it back. Now it just so happened that this was about the time that the US was cozying up to those same Mid Eastern Countries thus didn’t want the boat rocked. Ike sent a message to England ( A country we OWNED after WWII but I’ll save that lend-lease Story for another day) saying that if they didn’t pull out he was going to dump the US holdings on the world market. Three days later The Brits pulled out of Suez never to return. One day China is going to quit playing around and take those Islands back and because they OWN 30+ % of us you will see the US back down, we will tuck our tails and come home like good little boys. If we don’t quit messing around and get control of our country again something like what I’ve just painted will happen. Now just how is it that we can do just that, you ask, with a smirk on your face? Oil, I say, shale oil in the Rockies. We are in debt to the tune of 50+ Trillion all told and the estimated amount of reserves there is 800 Billion Barrels. Now 800 billion times, say, $65.00 a barrel is, you got it, 52 TRILLION dollars!! Oh boy, I can hear it all now, to simple an answer, environmental disaster, to expensive, you can’t do that, and on and on. Well read on then: http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/energy-overview/oil-shale/ We are not talking about any other area of the country; we can become independent without touching this and use it only to pay off our debt. Other Fossil fuels will get us thru until we can get off the oil teat in ten years. We need to also do everything in our power to find an answer to this problem of oil usage, NOW! The answer to our problem is right in front of our eyes yet no one sees the forest for the trees!
Meltdown by Thomas E. Woods http://search.barnesandnoble.com/bo...BN=9781596985872&ourl=Meltdown/Thomas-E-Woods You just might want to check this out.
I need more then a book to read....is there any video on this matter. Peter Schiff seems to agree with the synapses of this book.....he's been right since 2005 on what was coming.....................I've seen Warren Buffett telling him he was wrong only to look like an idiot. If Buffett had only listened he be several Billion richer.....lol
Here you go my friend, enjoy. Happy Easter [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXxNRNOjCM8"]YouTube - Tom Woods on Glenn Beck "Meltdown" 02/09/2009[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lRpJ1GLm5Q"]YouTube - Tom Woods at the Liberty Forum Part I[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tge5Qx0jby0&feature=related"]YouTube - Tom Woods Speaks at CPAC Part 2[/ame]
