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Pass Depth: Ryan Tannehill

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Fin-Omenal, Jun 15, 2014.

  1. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/06/13/qbs-in-focus-pass-depth/

    I've said many of time before, intermediate and in?? Ryan is a beast! He makes for a very ideal WC QB, and we can only expect him to continue to get better. He is already amongst the best in the league 20 yards and in, but when you go too 20+ he is amongst the worst in the game, bested by the likes of Brandon Weeden and Chad Henne.

    This is all common knowledge amongst reasonable Dolfans, but what this fine breakdown tells me?? We are a deep ball development away from a bonafide franchise QB. I'm excited.
     
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  2. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    yeah, but he's only bad in the intermediate deep passes. anything over 30+ or 40+ yards and he's actually doing well when you look at those numbers. He's really only struggling in the 20-30 yard range, same range as Brady.
     
  3. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Well he had a 29% accuracy rate Brady had a pretty impressive 43% 29 is really only disappointing when you signed a WR who's specialty is such.

    Good times uh comin
     
  4. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    Said this last time we saw one of these charts...look at the lack of RAC. It's awful.

    Last season's offense was built around routes that come back to the QB--hitches, curls, comebacks, etc especially on the sidelines. The concepts made for a high comp% but a low ypa and very few big plays being made with the ball in a receiver's hands because of where and how it was caught.

    Our offense looked like it was stuck in a box last year, and this is a big reason why. This season I want to see guys catching the ball on the move, especially as they're going vertically. Stop making Tannehill account for almost all our yards...put the WRs in a position to get easy yards in space.
     
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  5. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    There's a reason why every receiver that works best on intermediate and short routes have either seen their best year or been on pace for their best year before injury since Ryan Tannehill has been in Miami. Hartline, Bess, Clay, and Gibson. Matthews has also been able to flash some good things. If he develops the deep game, then I expect Wallace to go off this season as well. Hartline set the single game receiving record for this team in 2012 with Tannehill as a rookie. PFF also rates him in the top 3 and 5 for throwing to the middle and right respectively. He's really close to being a very good QB in this league. More so than any other draft pick, that closeness will make him the biggest draft disappointment to me if he never puts it all together.
     
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  6. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    A little more urgency in escaping pressure in the pocket, to go along with that, and he's elite.
     
  7. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    No.

    Even with that, he doesn't belong in the same grouping of Manning, Brady, Brees, and Rodgers. Tannehill has a long way to go before "elite." Maybe in the very good category of Rivers, Romo, Wilson, etc...
     
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  8. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    Well you're certainly entitled to your opinion as well. Won't sway mine though.
     
  9. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    There was barely any pocket to step into let alone roll out of. Our tackles were dominated most of the plays.
     
  10. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    Thats certainly better than we've had in a long time, and its enough to win with a good team.
     
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  11. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Elite is something earned over time. It's being consistently great, not great sometimes and then down, back up like Rivers.


    Wilson has elite potential, Luck is on his way. RT shows skulls to be elite, but needs the consistency over time along with maturing skills.
     
  12. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    One issue with the analysis is it pretends that what happened in 2013 is locked in as who all of these quarterbacks are, including Ryan Tannehill.

    In 2012, Ryan Tannehill was praised by those same PFF authors for his accurate deep ball (which they ranked #7 in the NFL).

    But in reality Ryan Tannehill had terrible protection in 2013, hence 4 out of 5 offensive linemen have been handed their walking papers. To my knowledge none of the four are slated to start in 2014 with any team.

    He also had a new wide receiver who is not exactly the most savvy or diligent of route runners, nor did he fit the style of offense installed in Miami. This wide receiver dominated the deep targets which are at the epicenter of Tannehill's sudden and newfound accuracy struggles. Further, in 2012 the year before arriving in Miami his quarterbacks at his previous stop (including Big Ben) had just as difficult a time hitting Wallace accurately on deeper throws as Ryan Tannehill did.

    Perhaps this is how you create that kind of downfall. Give a man terrible protection, have him throwing to a guy he doesn't have chemistry with and that doesn't fit the offense, and suddenly a top 7 deep ball thrower looks like a lower tier deep ball thrower.

    Wonder of wonders, if in 2013 you subtract the 8 out of 36 accuracy that Tannehill had going with Mike Wallace on the deep ball, his accuracy with the rest of the team was 13 out of 28 (46.4%) which would have ranked him back within the top 10.
     
  13. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think the deep ball media driven anxiety is just that..every attempt is now being scrutinized and talked about..pretty much like you said, without taking deep ball variables into proper context..just blame the Qb..I have my issues with Tannehill, innate accuracy difficulties is not one of them.
     
  14. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    This is why I believe Lazor is such a big key this season. IMO there is quite a bit of unrealized offensive talent on this team. Sure there were some holes, but the coaches did a particularly poor job of maximizing the team's strengths and minimizing the team's weaknesses. This team needs Lazor to change that. If he succeeds then RT will have as much or more individual success as any young QB in the league (there are additional factors for team success).
     
  15. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Brady isn't elite anymore IMO

    He's slipped into that "very very very good" area right below it. Just my opinion.
     
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  16. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    Yeah, 2013 wasn't a terrific year for Brady, that's for sure. With Gronk, I thought he performed much, much better. Without, he was as you say, very good, not elite. With Peyton's offense, I think he could still perform to the elite level, so I have him in the elite grouping overall.
     
  17. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Elite is usually earned with Super Bowls too. Brees and Rivers numbers compare very evenly (except Brees throws more). Brees has up and down years when he throws a lot of INTs. Rivers had a two year run where he threw more INTs than usual but still wasn't that bad (and one was actually decent numbers wise).

    Rivers is a guy who'd be considered elite by many if he had made it to a SB by now. 30/10 seasons with 65%+ accuracy is pretty common with him.
     
  18. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He's had one down year, when he lost ALL of his receivers and had a whole new crop. Not sure I'd knock him down just yet. Every single elite QB has had at least one down year.
     
  19. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    This reminds me of the issue with Tannehill's pocket presence.

    I don't think I would ever say he's better than an average deep ball thrower, even though he's got the tangible qualities to be better (arm strength). Just like I don't think I would say he's better than average dealing with pocket pressure even though he's got the tangible qualities to be better (speed, ability to throw on the move).

    But the crowd sentiment has sold him as being far below average in these categories and I don't think that's really the case. People keep inventing misguided ways to describe his below-averageness in these categories but their explanations often don't even pass the smell test, and usually are out of context for what is normal amongst the other 30 or so quarterbacks.
     
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  20. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    I dunno man...once you get past two "Very's" I think your in the elite area....
     
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  21. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Once I start hearing how other Defenses have to gameplan to stop Ryan Tannehill....or hear these words..."Ryan Tannehill and the High Powered Miami Offense"...then Ill really feel good about the directions hes going. Personally I think he has the potential....
     
  22. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    As things stand I know for a fact that defenses game plan for Tannehill's mobility. You can see it in the way they attack and the blitzes they favor.
     
  23. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    Do you think that played into Sherman's seeming low quantity of set runs for RT last season? IMO it wasn't terribly low, but factoring in RT's abilities, it definitely was less than it could have been.
     
  24. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    The problem is that everyone has a different idea what "elite" means.
     
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  25. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    Its an excellent point. We've all heard morons say that Marino can't be elite because he was never on a Super Bowl winner.
     
  26. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I tried unsuccessfully to get the site to use a new word for "elite" that had a few specific options for definitions that we'd all vote on to pick the standard one. Then we'd use that word and avoid all this silliness about "elite" this and "elite" that. The word was apexal (a-pex-al).
     
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  27. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Fin D you gotta stop smoking that ish.

    Remember all that nonsense talk about Eli being elite. I shot that down everytime it came up. Paulie tried to say Eli was elite. Paulie? Oh you won't see him no more.

    For a few years, there were only two elites. Manning, Brady. Rodgers, Brees and Big Ben muddy it up a little (I'll add Rodgers in the elite category, Brees is seriously a tweener for me, Big Ben no, but damn good).

    Tanny doesn't need to be elite in my book, to win it. Last two QBs to win the SB are not elite in my book. All you need in this league is a good QB. Good coach, with good defense, can win it IMO.
     
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  28. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    How does what I said equate to me smoking ish?

    Are you implying your own personal definition of "elite" is the one true definition?
     
  29. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think it depends on your definition of pocket presense ??? And who you would consider average, I think what your getting at is if he had a good oline in front of him the escapability, the abiltiy to maneuver within the pocket would look so much better than it has for two years?
     
  30. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'd rather hear, " watch out for that dominating dolphin defense", but you gotta know what it's gonna take to win in this town and in that stadium, and if it's offense, then so be it.
     
  31. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Back to the topic of Ryan in the pocket, well, it's his choice when to bail and do some damage with his athleticism and his uncanny ability to throw and run from both sides, and when to run for an effective first down, all to help his team win by using his own given talents...we saw hardly any of that ability, so in that regard he's below average.
     
  32. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Trying to come up with a unified definition of elite for the site, and then naming it apexal. You gotta be toking something ;)
     
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  33. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    IMO, the top 10% is elite. There are 3.2 elite QB's in the NFL. We can round that down to 3.

    Somehow, in the world of sports, we hold people to much lower standards at their jobs than we hold ourselves. Top 10 is not elite, when you're talking about 32 available jobs. Imagine a regular person bragging about being in the top 32% of anything related to their field. I can't, because people would laugh if they weren't going out of their way to be polite.

    Of course, people who play professional sports are in an elite group to begin with, so there's that. Still, when we call someone an "Elite NFL player," we should really be talking about the best of the best, and that shouldn't be close to 1/3 of the people doing any job. The top 10% is still pushing it, if we use real world standards, but it helps to have more than 1-2 people on any sports list.

    This is a long-winded way of saying "I like 'apexal.'"

    Elite: Manning, Rodgers, Brees.

    Apexal: Manning. People can fight about Rodgers vs. Brees for the second spot.
     
  34. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    lol, like I said I tried...meaning I stopped trying and smoking the ish. hahaha
     
  35. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Silly because I saw him TRY to do this many times but it's kind of impossible with the pocket collapsing from every angle.
     
  36. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    It wasn't that Tannehill couldn't escape pressure, its that he couldn't escape a jailbreak. I fully admit that my memory of last season may be tainted, but I feel like many of Tannehill's sacks came from pressure on both sides (and often through the middle). I seem to remember he'd go to flush out to one side because of pressure, only to run into broken containment.

    I'm not saying Sherman is blameless, I just wonder that when we compare Tannehill to Wilson or CKap, if the KINDS of pressure is factored in. I know Wilson had a horrible line, but I'm curious if he was avoiding both ends of the line collapsing at the same time as much.
     
  37. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He never took upon himself to run for a first down..you would think with the amount of pressure he did see that wouldn't be the case..he just didn't have the trigger or wherewithall to do it.
     
  38. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'll give him a clean slate in the escapability dept for two reasons, the line that was in front of him was a sieve so he couldn't get any kind of head start, and the theory That Sherman constricted him to the pocket, however, even if he has a line that gives him the extra second, even if he has freedom to play the game at all costs, don't expect to see the specific athleticism that Wilson and Kaepernick display when pressure comes, hopefully ryan evens the playing field by his pocket talent and what was instilled in him last year by hanging in the pocket at all costs.
     
  39. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    Listing of PFF's "QBs in Focus" series of QB articles: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/06/03/qbs-in-focus/

    For DJ: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/06/04/qbs-in-focus-drop-back-rollout-scramble/

    https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/06/05/qbs-in-focus-pressure-and-the-blitz/
    https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/06/16/qbs-in-focus-time-to-throw/
    Some surprising stuff in the deep ball categories. Not so much for Tannehill, but for guys like Big Ben and Stafford, who really struggled with deep ball passes. Tannehill's worst numbers were in the 20-29 yard range.
    https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/06/13/qbs-in-focus-pass-depth/
    Tannehill is at his best in the 2nd and 4th quarters respectively... https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/06/09/qbs-in-focus-by-quarter/

    Anyway enjoy the links.
     
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  40. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    whats silly is saying he tried many times.no he didn't..the guy wouldn't initiate a scramble out of the pocket until the pressure was up his ***, let alone how utterly uneffective he was when it came to running on purpose for a first down.

    I don't know why a defense would be threatened, he didnt do sh^5 with his legs.
     

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