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Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Phoenician Fan, Dec 23, 2013.
Was never thrilled with Dansby or Burnett's play. Not thrilled with Ellerbe or Wheeler.
Dansby is better that Ellerbe..
I don't think Philbin wanted Dansby on the team..
I don't think Philbin wanted Vontae on the team..
I don't think Philbin wanted Marshall on the team..
I don't think Philbin wanted smith on the team..
I don't think Philbin wanted Bush on the team.
I don't think Philbin wanted Long on the team.
Ireland is on the hot seat, but why would he get rid of players that he according to a lot of folks, drafted, and went after in free agency..
Those moves scream Philbin
Just because Ireland drafted a player doesn't mean he isn't willing to let them go if they are too expensive. He let Langford walk and he was definitely a hit for Ireland.
I got a strong vibe and by reading between the lines that Philbin didn't want Dansby, Bush, Smith, Davis, Marshall...also got a strong vibe that Dansby didn't like Philbin.
It makes sense considering what I saw and heard that these moves were endorsed by the head coach..
I wanted to move on from Marshall, I didn't want Bush or Smith either, and I'm pretty dam sure Jake long didn't want to be a Miami dolphin....agree or disagree with the moves, but I think it's pretty clear they were the coaches recommendations.
I hope your kidding. There are better ones in FA and the draft
I totally agree with this. Who wants who around is unknown and we are probably guessing at most stuff. Eellerbe has been a let down but I didn't watch dansby and think this dude is the future.
I think there is always more to it than the public knows.
That's why record and team accomplishments are tied to both GM and HC.
That's how they're judged. As of now, both are failing IMO.
If Ireland accommodated Philbin on those moves, why did he not accommodate him when Philbin wanted Incognito off the team and when Philbin told him that Martin was not good enough to start at left tackle?
The bottom line is this. Jeff Ireland has final say on all personnel acquisitions. Any bad moves are on him. Pretty much all of Miami's free agency decisions this offseason were bad moves.
Those that support Jeff are constantly blaming his bad moves on someone else, whether that be Bill Parcells or now Joe Philbin. Somehow, Jeff is never responsible for any bad moves. It's always someone else's fault. I will never understand how some fans on here can support this guy with his track record, and when you also consider the fact that he does not conduct business with any integrity or character.
What evidence can you provide that supports this theory?
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What evidence can you provide that shows he doesn't have final say on all personnel decisions?
Stephen Ross has mentioned it in the past that Ireland has final say on who is on the 53 man roster.
Obviously, you think we have the most powerless GM in football though. Apparently, he's just a figure head that is just there for people to hate.
Lets re-hash this,
letting Dansby go was a mistake. I thought even with Ellerbe here, Dansby could have been used. Dansby was good enough to switch linebacker positions if thats what was needed. He was the defensive leader and the guy would have ran through walls for us. He's an emotional person obviously from his outspoken actions and I think that is why Philbin didn't want him here. Philbin doesn't want any player on this team to actually speak their mind about things and that is probably the main problem I have with him. Make no mistake about it though, we would have been a much better defensive team with Dansby still here.
I wasn't cool with us letting Jake Long walk for nothing. Seemed to me we had just spent a number one pick on the guy. That 1-15 season was and is still fresh in my mind. I didn't see the worn down shell of his former self LT that many of you described. He just tore his ACL for St.Louis and thats a shame, but he has helped make a star out of Zach Stacy a fifth round pick this year. Bradford/Clemens have also been protected quite well. Bradford got hurt trying to make a play with his legs.
Now clearly the left tackle position along with the entire offensive line has been by far the biggest flaw on this team this season!
As for Ellerbe, i'm not sure what the problem is because he really looked the part of an up and coming player last year in Baltimore. He's a playmaker i'll give him that, but the complaints about him have not stopped since week 4 of this year. Excuses about "getting to know the system" were thrown around but at the end of the day you either play well or you don't. I wouldn't call it a colossal fail just yet...to me it falls right in line with the Mike Wallace signing..In other words I guess we'll see what happens next year.
Sean Smith was becoming one of my favorite players while he was here. I thought he was good, but not great and certainly not worth the money he was asking for. Letting him go sucked, but it had to be done. The same can be said for Reggie Bush in my opinion. He did some nice things while he was here and he's done some nice things in Detroit, but they are still not a playoff team with him, and he hasn't been able to stay healthy.
I don't know why you seem to think Jeff Ireland is some kind of dictator that forces all players onto his coaching staff. Most personnel moves are a COLLABORATIVE effort, the coaches give input on a player and decide whether or not they will fit the scheme and if they are worth bringing in. The Ellerbe and Wheeler moves were definitely thought out by everyone involved not just Jeff Ireland.
It is not incumbent on me to disprove your theory.
Then someone should easily be able to find the evidence. Just trying to gather information here.
You can start by firing the man responsible for getting Aponte to sign him. No need for names we all know who that is.
Someone explain to me how you "stick with the run" when you don't have a run over 3 yards all game? Even as bad as our pass protection is I'd rather take my chances throwing the ball.
Because you have the ability to keep defenses honest in doing so, you've got the ability to run play-action, draws, and attempt to gain yardage in a way that doesn't expose your quarterback to abuse.
There's no excuse for abandoning the run in that situation. You don't run it 30+ times, but for ****s sake.
Why not Bush? The guy is really a profession's professional...
It's not old, and it's not obnoxious, its the God damn truth, and finally, FINALLY some people are waking up to what the real problem is and has been for years. Some of us caught on to this at least 3 years ago.
I just can't wait to see the tap-dance you'll be doing when he is fired. How are you going to be all gung-ho Dolphins when the owner just fired Ireland. I can't wait to see the back-tracking and the "I didn't really mean that" posts. It's going to be hilarious. Will you criticize Ross, how will you handle that.....I am just waiting for it.
You notice he's already starting to throw in the "everybody hates him" stuff to make it look like he was on board with that instead of the defense he has been putting up for years of Ireland. I'm on to him though, and I will do my best to keep him honest, even if the rest of the board hates me, I feel its a duty and responsiblity for honesty's sake.
Well when we saw Vontae Davis publicly traded he seemed to be the guy making that move, didn't seem to be answering to anyone about personnel. I cannot understand how anyone can still be sitting here placing blame everywhere but on Ireland. He's the GM, he's the guy making the personnel moves, he has final say. Give him credit when he hits on a player but when he makes a bad move its on him too. I am shocked that anyone is actually still playing the "it really isn't his fault" game anymore, Parcels is long gone, he's in charge now.
And the tap-dancing will commence shortly !
Well we know Jeffy has final say on the draft, Ross said so himself, unless you think he was lying...
it's probably the same case in free agency as well
Whilst I agree you should always try to keep the run game going. If possible, it shouldn't be abandoned early. However, if your run game isn't doing jack s--t, it won't keep Ds honest. The play-action and draws will not be effective, so it's a s--t storm. It effects a lot.
Agreed, I think he does have final say on draft day. But its interesting to note...
I don't think so. One thing I do recall which is regularly overlooked:
While I do agree that Ireland has final say on whom is drafted, its very clear to me that he does not negotiate with FAs or even the players he drafts. That is Dawn Aponte. IMO there are checks in place which prevent any of the three from being able to do anything without a consensus.
Come on man, you watch this stuff, you know he didn't want Vontae, Im damn confident he didn't like Sean smiths game after some scenes on the sideline that I witnessed, you know he didn't like Marshall, he couldn't look Dansby in the eye for some reason, and I have some other clues that Dansby didn't like him, and Jake did not want to be in this town on this team, at all costs, this ain't rocket science..
I thought this was common knowledge, now if you think all those players would of made this team a much better team, then your beef should be somewhat directed towards the coach as well no.
True and fair enough. However his play was also mostly unacceptable combined with his salary. Having watched Wheeler out of our scheme and within our scheme, its obvious we leave our LBs on an island where they can only maje plays through amazing individual effort. We aren't getting the most out of them.
If your the GM, and the coach comes to you and says I think we should move in a different direction from this player, you listen and you make moves..I mean the whole premise to the argument is how a GM should listen to the head coach and give him what he wants.
I absolutely put more on Philbin when it comes to the departures of Dansby, Bush, Davis, Smith, Long, Marshall..
If you or anyone is upset that those players are not dolphins I suggest rethink your position on who your pissed at..
It's cool to be pissed at the other stuff, but considering how all those players I just mentioned were aquired to be Miami dolphins and what we have seen transpire with those players and this coach, I think it makes a lot of sense.
I've heard plenty from ohilbin that tells me he wanted to move in a different style from what Reggie was bringing to the table..
If someone is gonna try to convince me that Ireland went out and signed bush then flat out booted him for being a great leader and productive at his position, your high..
Once again for folks who feel like were a better team with bush, where is your vitriol for the coach, he didn't want him here man..
Where is this story and why is not public is what I want to know...it's obvious as hell.and no one except me is putting the mirror in front of philbins face.
Coach didn't want Incognito. He was still here. Coach didn't want Martin. He is still here. Coach doesn't want Watkins or Thomas. They are still here
Smh so trolling is officially OK here?
You have an unproven theory that Ireland does not have final say.
She may negotiate FA contracts but not with anyone that Ireland doesn't want.
Sorry if I was being harsh. It wasnt personal or intentional.
I understand why it was done and the thought process behind it, I just dont and never did agree with it.
No that wasnt a "Lets give ireland credit thread". The title is can we please stop blaming Ireland now and the answer is no we cant. Ive given him credit over the years. I gave him credit for some decent draft gems and for a few good finds like Wake, Incognito (pre Martin incident) etc that he got on the cheap. The bad just vastly outweighs the good for me. Hes a classic case of even a broken clock is right 2x a day. I never saw that criticism of Ireland from you.
I dont get a rise out of bashing players. id just rather have someone I felt was competent as a GM and wasnt a lightning rod for bull**** and controversy. Your GM shouldnt be getting more attention then your players and he does regularly and its not for being an amazing GM.
Im most certainly wrong some of the times but Im pretty confident a handful of people on this board could do a better job in player analysis, signings and drafting players then JI. 5 straight non playoff seasons would have any other GM GONE. Thats where Ireland should be. If you accept mediocrity, thats your decision. Dont ask me to.
No but no one is trolling. Trolling is when another teams fan(s) come here just to make trouble. KB, myself, MrClean, and a handful of others stated a viewpoint you dont agree with or like because it bashes our garbage GM and thats not trolling. Thats called having a different opinion. I know youre intelligent enough to know the difference because youve shown that in the past so why are you having such a hard time comprehending that the only people who like our Gm are you and a handful of others?
The pick,player,person,progression,production all falls on one man at this point..... Every close win or tough loss was ultimately determined by his decisions. That how it is these days, riding the S.Fl media wave with Omar,Armando, talking to a lot of dolphin fans. Half the discussion is how he needs to go... because we've been a 7-8 win team.... With inexperienced and sometime s awful coaching. And i think we could all agree ....some misdirection or "toying with" young Qbs. I like the roster overall, happy it's ours.... Wouldn't trade it for 2/3 the league.
The bottom line is this. Coach Philbin isn't a great coach. In fact, he's decidedly average at this point. I think he is above average as a teacher and with player development, but right now, he's not a great in game coach. He's a lot like Mike McCarthy in that sense.
He's in his second year as a head coach. He should have the opportunity to see what he can do with this young quarterback.
See Carolina as a great example. Go look at Ron Rivera's record in his first two years. 6-10, and 7-9. What happened between last year and this year? Well, Carolina fired Marty Hurney and hired Dave Gettleman. Two picks they made in the draft made all the difference in the world for them. Carolina has gotten immediate impact from Star Lotulelei and Kawan Short.
Now, they are 11-4 and in position to have a first round bye. All it took was getting a quality GM into place.
I don't think any coach is entitled to a certain amount of time.
There looks to be about 3 coaches this season who make the playoffs in their first year with a team.....
I remain pretty underwhelmed by Philbin and his staff.
What do they do really well??
I stated it above. This staff is better at player development than any staff we have had since Jimmy Johnson. Player development is where coaches have their biggest impact. Those of you that think coaches have a significant impact on winning and losing are dead wrong. Their impact on winning and losing is minimal. The large majority of the impact on winning and losing comes from the players, and the fact is, this team doesn't have good enough players.
If you based your opinion of a coach off of what he can do with this roster, then you will never have a coach you are satisfied with. There isn't a coach out there that can consistently win with this roster that Jeff Ireland put together.
No need to apologize bro, I'm a big boy I can handle it. And I don't take anything personal so feel free to speak your mind. I'd be more offended if you pulled your punches than if you didn't.
So you understand why it was done, that's not enough? Be honest, no one expected Dansby to catch on with his old team and have a Pro Bowl type season. Just like no one expected Vernon to have a double digit sack season this year. IMO they're two sides of the same coin, two calculated risks, one looks good right now and the other one doesn't.
I was referring to the show Ireland some love thread.
You're right I don't criticize Ireland, but it's not out of some misguided affinity for him like you make it seem. I don't believe in scapegoating any Dolphin. If Ellerbe isn't playing well that's on Ellerbe. If Grimes is playing great then good for him, pay the man. I'm not gonna sit here and pretend like Ireland is a genius for signing one guy and a dumbass for signing another guy. That's not how it works IMO.
We just disagree there. I don't think anyone here could even come close to doing what an actual GM does. I think 99% of us, myself included, don't even know what Ireland's job actually entails. Imo people form opinions with 80-90% certainty based on 10-20% of the info necessary to make an informed opinion. Maybe you have info that I don't have, I'm not plugged into the team like that. I just watch the games and try to figure out what's going on, the front office stuff is pretty much mystery to me so I'd never feel strongly one way or the other. If the forum was going crazy praising Ireland I would be pumping the brakes on that as well.
Maybe it's not trolling in the Webster's sense and I'm not a Mod but turning every thread into an Ireland debate hurts the forum IMO. Why can't we just talk about Ellerbe and why he's struggling? He was a solid player in Baltimore and I'll admit I won't be zeroing in on him till I'm bored senseless in the offseason but I'd love to hear you, KB, Mr Clean and others opine on what the issue is. I know you don't like Ireland, I don't need it explained to me over and over. I hope I don't come off as rude or combative, that's not my intention. It's just I love this forum bc I love talking football, I love the Dolphins, I love learning from others and hearing different viewpoints on different topics.
I could care less about Ireland, like I told Mr C I don't think GMs are all that important to begin with, there are a few great ones and a few crappy ones but let's be real: Peyton, Brady, Brees, Rodgers etc are winning games not the coaches or GMs they work for and that's why they make 18-20 million a year. NFL owners are some of the savviest businessmen in the world, I'll believe a GM is the key to success when I see a GM sign a 100 million dollar contract.
But player development is really hard to judge too.
Yeah, we can see guys like Clay and Matthews who have blossomed.
But have they failed to develop Martin, Miller, Thomas, Misi, and Jerry? Or were they just bad picks in the first place?
I'm unhappy with their slow adjustments and stubbornness. And I am really unhappy that their remedy for difficult personalities is to get rid of them rather than coach them up.