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PFF grades are out for week 1

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by LBsFinest, Sep 9, 2013.

  1. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Maynard is correct. If we're talking about the play where Dion got credited for a sack, Thomas had him well in hand on the play. Dion made an initial move which was unsuccessful, and so Dion completely disengaged his rush, pulled his hands down and went into spy mode. Weeden ran right into him and then Dion finsihed by grabbing Weeden's facemask. Technically a sack, but a bad play for Jordan and good pass pro by Thomas.
     
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  2. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Keep in mind we're talking about 64 pass snaps. Allowing 1 hit and 4 hurries on 64 pass snaps is within acceptable range.

    Allowing for example 6 pressures on 45 pass blocking snaps, is not.
     
  3. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    Oh I agree. I think Joe Thomas is the best tackle in football so I'm not surprised.
     
  4. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I rewatched the play again and while Jordan didn't beat him on that very first move he still got by him very quickly. I would not call that good pass pro. And I doubt that if Martin had let up the exact same play anybody here would be calling it good pass pro. By my estimate Jordan got to the QB by 3.4 seconds. I wouldn't call that horrid, but you'd probably expect the best LT in the game (which I don't disagree with BTW) to do better than that on a deep drop. (Weedon was in the shotgun and then dropped 3 - 4 steps). In general on such a drop you're hoping for a minimum of 3.5 seconds. (I generally believe you want 2.5 seconds on a 3 step drop from under center or a shotgun play where the drop is two steps or less).
     
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  5. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Couldn't you say the same thing about a couple of Tannehill's sacks, decent pass pro and bad pocket presence? He literally ran right into Bryant and Kruger.
     
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  6. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Martin gave up a sack to Groves that was somewhat similar. Clabo definitely got a raw deal on his "sack allowed". Jerry OTOH was getting beaten pretty cleanly.
     
  7. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    After extensive film review of the plays? No. The only play that came close was the sack allowed by Richie Incognito. However, the primary difference there is that Incognito did not have Desmond Bryant well in-hand prior to Tannehill's attempt to scramble. He was being skated backward by Bryant and then Bryant crossed over his face to where he was about to flash and threaten the quarterback no matter what he did.
     
  8. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    Just using your post to quickly bring up something that I noticed during the game. Did anyone else notice how quick Pouncey's shotgun snaps were to Tannehill? I mean at one point I was worried that Ryan was going to drop a couple of them. He was really rifling it back there. Wonder if the extra, what .1 of a second makes a difference, as in the velocity of the snaps are something they've been working on?
     
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  9. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    That sums it up in a nutshell. Though Jordan got his one sack against Thomas, but gave the yards back when he grabbed Weeden's facemask. That sack apparently counted though, and the 15 yards tacked on from the spot of the foul.
     
  10. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    It's subjective whether to call it good pass pro or not. While I will not stoop to questioning your motivation, as you clearly have, I will at the very least question your judgment on this play given the replay and the still frames below.

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Offensive tackles don't have eyes in the back of their head. They have their back turned to the quarterback and will not know when that quarterback has completely changed the pass rusher's angle to the passer. Dion Jordan on the other hand has the benefit of having his eyes on the prize the entire time. He can see when the quarterback is changing his position inside or outside the pocket. He gets the benefit of first reaction.

    Granted, if Joe Thomas were able to use The Force like a true Jedi Knight, he would have anticipated all of this and kept Dion Jordan from getting the sack. Outside of that, pretty difficult to fault Thomas on the play.
     
  11. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Jordan did a great job on that play. First he got into the passing lane, and then he got the sack. Of course the face mask penalty was bad.
     
  12. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Thomas allowed 1 hit and 4 hurries according to PFF, pass block rating of a 0.9 though. He did allow the sack to Jordan, who is credited with a sack by them, but they attribute the 6 sacks Miami got to Cousins 2, Schwartz 3, and Ogbonnaya 1. They also credit Miami with 7 sacks. As they do not credit half sacks. One sack we got was a half each for Wake and Jordan. They say Wake 3, Shelby 1, Starks 2, Jordan 1.

    I need to email them about the lack of a sack for a Thomas.
     
  13. 72 Dolphins

    72 Dolphins New Member

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    Yep, credit Starks, who as you can see in the 2nd still photo, has beaten his man and forced Weeden to flush towards Jordan. Agree, no fault of Thomas.
     
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  14. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Absolutely.
     
  15. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    OV had one hit and 3 hurries in 48 pass rush snaps. As I recall, he was going against Thomas whenever he was in the game.
     
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  16. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    It's a negative overall play for Jordan IMO, mostly because of the facemask.

    He didn't really beat Thomas on his pass rush move. If all three of the other Miami pass rushers had done what Jordan had done on the play, which was to engage, not get any advantage, and then back off waiting for Weeden to move off his spot, then Brandon could have sat in the pocket scanning the field forever.

    As it happens, Randy Starks wasn't doing that. Starks was rushing the heck out of John Greco and this forced Weeden right into Jordan's path. Jordan did a good job using his eyes to recognize where the quarterback was going and then react to it, but that's not an unusual skill set. That's what determines for me whether it was a good play or not: how many other guys out there could have done this? To me the answer is "many".

    So that small positive of him reading the quarterback's scramble and reacting well doesn't outweight the negative of the facemask by a long shot. That facemask penalty cost the Dolphins 25 yards.
     
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  17. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I don't think you are giving Jordan enough credit. Last season with those sacks didn't happen. Even if Weeden got flushed the outside rusher wouldn't be able to disengage even with the advantage of knowing exactly where Weeden was.

    If many people could have done it, why don't many people do? How many times did we watch last year with Starks or Wake flushing the quarterback and then no one else even come close to him. Plus he did take away a passing lane.

    I totally disagree that this is a small positive. Without the facemask it is a great play against a great player, with the facemask it is a great play against a great player that is wiped away by a boneheaded move.
     
  18. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    It cost Miami 15 yards. Weeden was sacked at the 35. Cleveland's next play was at the 20. 15 yard penalty from the spot of the foul. Had he not grabbed the face mask, Cleveland would have been lining up at the 35 rather than the 20.

    The sequence of plays:
     
  19. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I think calling it a "great" play outside of the facemask shows lowered standards.

    It wasn't really a great play at all and yes, other player do make plays like this when presented these conditions, which are tough to achieve. The hard thing to do is for that first player like Randy Starks to come in on the quarterback from the INSIDE which flushes the quarterback straight out into the defensive ends. That's what doesn't happen that often and is invaluable when you have it. What Dion Jordan accomplished on the play is pretty common, except for the facemask which was uncommon for all the wrong reasons.

    I expect Dion Jordan to be the guy flushing the quarterback off his spot. I also expect him to be the guy that sacks the quarterback before the quarterback can escape and get off the spot. I don't expect him to make his career doing something any linebacker could do, spying on the quarterback and then just taking advantage of angles that are gifted to him,
     
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  20. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Ah you're right, I keep forgetting that the result of the penalty is not a "NO PLAY" situation. So it cost Miami 15 yards and a 1st down.
     
  21. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    IMO Thomas was simply beat by a quicker, more athletic player. Frankly, Jordan has that advantage on every LT and he got by Thomas despite Thomas' really nice footwork and positioning. I have no doubt that if the same thing happened to Martin he would blasted for it regardless of how his footwork and positioning were on that play.
     
  22. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Just as I have no doubt you're talking completely out of your *** right now.
     
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  23. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    Not sure what you're looking at. If Starks doesn't penetrate and force Weeden to run directly at Jordan, Weeden has a perfectly fine pocket, can step up, not impacted by Jordan.
     
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  24. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Lowered standards? That is crazy.

    I don't expect Dion Jordan to flush the quarterback off his spot his first game against one of the best left tackles after missing most of preseason in his first game on every play.

    It was a great play. He played it perfectly. Other players do make the plays, however it isn't something that is consistantly done. It is not common. I have seen many times when the guy doesn't get a pass rush or is pushed out of the play.
     
  25. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Jordan got by Thomas quick enough that I doubt Weedon has time to step up.
     
  26. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    There are a lot of guys here who would have vilified Martin had he allowed a sack in the same manner Thomas did with Jordan.
     
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  27. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    YES. I meant to bring it up on here after the game but I was too pumped by the win. I don't remember that being an issue the last few years but it was weird to see.
     
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  28. 72 Dolphins

    72 Dolphins New Member

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    CK - You don't want to even mention the fact that if he doesn't grab Weedens face mask around Thomas, he probably doesn't even make the play Starks handed to him on a platter. :yes:
     
  29. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Perhaps the thread starter. But even that is doubtful.

    Certainly not me, which is what rafael seemed to be implying.
     
  30. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    So, it was a flush sack. Should we have a separate stat for each kind of sack now? Starks got a sack too in the game where Weeden was flushed by outside pressure, likely Wake, and forced to step up to where Starks while getting held again by Cousins, was able to reach out and grab Weeden with one hand and bring him down.
    Many sacks happen all though out the season, where the QB is flushed by one pass rusher to where another pass rusher brings him down and gets credit for the sack. Are we to belittle every sack that happens in this manner?
     
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  31. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    60% of all people on the live thread would.
     
  32. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    I guess I did not take it as an implication toward you or any one person specifically.
     
  33. 72 Dolphins

    72 Dolphins New Member

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    I doubt that ... and that is no arguement against CK for calling the play like it was. He hasn't unjustly villified Martin nor would he, I don't believe. He got this one right, move on.
     
  34. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    No, just unspecifically anyone who happens to be arguing with rafael on the matter at the moment on the Joe Thomas sack and who has also been critical of Jonathan Martin in the past. Unspecifically.
     
  35. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Martin was vilified for every small mistake this preseason despite being one of the top performing LTs. I see no reason to believe that it would have been any different if he had allowed that play.
     
  36. 72 Dolphins

    72 Dolphins New Member

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    I think we can safely belittle any sack that results in a 15 yard personal foul penalty and a first down. Uh HUh. :yes:
    :yes:Most especially one that wasn't really earned the way you want to see Jordan earning his sacks. (See Cameron Wake).

    If EVER in the history of football there was a sack recorded that shouldn't have been - That was it. :tongue2:
     
  37. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    Jersey
    Posts in game threads should always be taken with a grain of salt. It's all emotional knee-jerk reactions.
     
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  38. maynard

    maynard Who, whom?

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    Of course not, but in terms of grading a player, that type of qualification is useful. The conversation initially began with the job Thomas did. I don't think Thomas did anything wrong. Jordan really didn't do a ton, but he kept himself available and was able to make a play. For purposes of grading, I would say yes, not all sacks are created equal.

    That Starks sack was great. It was like he gave him a handshake and threw him down lol
     
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  39. maynard

    maynard Who, whom?

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    I stayed out of it Sunday because it makes me an angry SOB when the team is struggling
     
  40. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    More people should follow your footsteps. I'll post a little bit during the games but usually I just read through during commercials or timeouts.
     
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