Phins WR/QB Chemistry- A Little Analysis
37 replies
I was listening to Herm and Jaws this morning, as they were going over Peyton's int problems. The one thing which stood out was 1/10th of a second, which makes a huge difference in WR/QB chemistry.
They explained that when a QB and WR are working together in the first year, a cut, read, or move cannot be anticipated, and that 1/10th of a second is many times the difference between a big play and a pick. It takes time to develop that trust.
Based on that, I took a look at our receivers on PFF.
"Divine" Bess was targeted 86 times, caught 62, at 72%. His YAC avg. is 4.7, and he has 4 drops. He has been consistent all year long.
Hartline was targeted 67 times, caught 43, at 64%. His YAC avg. is 5, and he has 3 drops. His game has jumped up after week #6.
Marshall was targeted 92 times, caught 58, at 63%. His YAC avg. is 2.9, and he has 8 drops. His play has dropped off after week # 5.
Fasano has been targeted 48 times, caught 32, at 66.7%. His YAC avg. is 5.8, and he has 2 drops. He has been consistent all year.
Anyone see a bit of a trend? Bess and Fasano worked with Henne all of last year, and have been consistent all season. Hartline played part time last year, and came on in the second half of this year. Marshall is new and the connection is not yet there.
Amazing how much 1/10th of a second can be.
A little food for thought.
Not sure how you determine the connection is not there? His catching % is about the same as everyone else's.
"alen1 wrote:
Not sure how you determine the connection is not there? His catching % is about the same as everyone else's.
True story but, Marshall is a Pro Bowl WR who should be leading, not following. Last year he was at 68%, a YAC of 5, and had 8 drops all year with 101 catches.
I also base this on watching the games twice. Henne is not throwing to him early enough to allow him the YAC or, the ability to make a big play. The red zone is another example.
Ah gotcha. My mistake.
"alen1 wrote:
Ah gotcha. My mistake.
I've noticed the "chemistry" Henne has with Bess. I'm sure we all have. I also noticed some of the same coming into play with Hartline over the last 5-6 games. Marshall is still a work in progress.
KillerphinsNew Member"Southbeach wrote:
I've noticed the "chemistry" Henne has with Bess. I'm sure we all have. I also noticed some of the same coming into play with Hartline over the last 5-6 games. Marshall is still a work in progress.
Marshall shouldn't be a work in progress for all the money and the comp we surrendered. Eight drops and a 2.9 YAC. Fuggin' kidding me... That is the very reason I've been all over his ass. Chemistry with the QB or not BM is a pro bowl WR and he is playing like a backup. Sorry I know you are looking for excuses SB but no way in hell does Marshall get a pass with me. He needs to step up and prove his worth. That is the bottom line!
"Killerphins wrote:
Marshall shouldn't be a work in progress for all the money and the comp we surrendered. Eight drops and a 2.9 YAC. Fuggin' kidding me... That is the very reason I've been all over his ass. Chemistry with the QB or not BM is a pro bowl WR and he is playing like a backup. Sorry I know you are looking for excuses SB but no way in hell does Marshall get a pass with me. He needs to step up and prove his worth. That is the bottom line!
Killer, You do not know me well. I never look for excuses. I offer facts as best I can.
Jaws was a VG longtime QB in the NFL. Herm was a VG DB, before becoming a HC. I have to believe what they say is, at least somewhat, true.
Although not as well as you think, you do know football. Tell me/show me where excuses are being made.
firedanforum_veteranMarshall is a Pro Bowl WR who should be leading, not following. Last year he was at 68%, a YAC of 5, and had 8 drops all year with 101 catches.
firedanforum_veteranSorrry.meant to add this was before he got his big money
KillerphinsNew Member"Southbeach wrote:
Killer, You do not know me well. I never look for excuses. I offer facts as best I can.
Jaws was a VG longtime QB in the NFL. Herm was a VG DB, before becoming a HC. I have to believe what they say is, at least somewhat, true.
Although not as well as you think, you do know football. Tell me/show me where excuses are being made.
The stats you posted are facts.
The opinions you posted are excuses.
I would say Marshall doesn't fit this scheme before I would pin it on WR/ QB chemistry.
Either way no excuses for Marshall's lack of consistency this season. Sorry bro it falls on the player. He has to take full responsibility for this season so far in order for things to change. One TD is an atrocity.
resnorforum_veteranHow does Marshall NOT fit this scheme? This is the ideal scheme for him. Short to medium passing, and a run oriented team. Granted, our run game has been nonexistent...but that's not the schemes fault. Marshall is not a receiver to blaze by a DB to grab a 50 yard bomb. He's gonna catch a 10 yard slant, break a tackle, and go for 30 more.
KillerphinsNew Member"resnor wrote:
How does Marshall NOT fit this scheme? This is the ideal scheme for him. Short to medium passing, and a run oriented team. Granted, our run game has been nonexistent...but that's not the schemes fault. Marshall is not a receiver to blaze by a DB to grab a 50 yard bomb. He's gonna catch a 10 yard slant, break a tackle, and go for 30 more.
Yeah sure.... We have seen that all season long right :words:
Come on now Henning doesn't move Marshall around at all which is part of his scheme. If the OC would move BM around a little more he might have success but then again Marshall doesn't have any focus or want to in him it seems so maybe it wouldn't make a difference.
Conuficusluxury_box"Killerphins wrote:
Marshall shouldn't be a work in progress for all the money and the comp we surrendered. Eight drops and a 2.9 YAC. Fuggin' kidding me... That is the very reason I've been all over his ass. Chemistry with the QB or not BM is a pro bowl WR and he is playing like a backup. Sorry I know you are looking for excuses SB but no way in hell does Marshall get a pass with me. He needs to step up and prove his worth. That is the bottom line!
Just remember that Marshall missed a great deal of camp and offseason work with Henne due to a hip issue, which got treated late in the process. That has likely had some affect on the combination, especially in their first year.
ToddsPhinsNew MemberThanks for pulling the stats SouthBeach. What actually jumps out at me the most is: Our most talented player on offense who excels at making plays once the ball is in his hand has virtually half the YAC as everyone else. What this tells me is that Marshall is being smothered and defenses are taking him away his strength.... which is what I've been saying all along.
This also tells me how important it is to get another pass catcher in here who can help draw the coverage away from Brandon so he has a chance to do his thing. What's the point of having an elite WR if we don't give him an opportunity to be elite? IMO this is a bigger problem than using a 1st round pick on a RB.
On a side note, this has gotta be driving Marshall crazy. I'd be frustrated as hell if I were him.
ToddsPhinsNew Member"Killerphins wrote:
Yeah sure.... We have seen that all season long right :words:
Come on now Henning doesn't move Marshall around at all which is part of his scheme. If the OC would move BM around a little more he might have success but then again Marshall doesn't have any focus or want to in him it seems so maybe it wouldn't make a difference.
I don't see him not having focus (although I could see how it would appear that way). I see a guy who's incredibly competitive and frustrated b/c he knows he can do more to help this team but he's being draped in coverage and IMO he's putting too much pressure on himself to make plays during the the opportunities he has, that it's causing him to drop some balls etc. Just my opinion.
ToddsPhinsNew Member"resnor wrote:
How does Marshall NOT fit this scheme? This is the ideal scheme for him. Short to medium passing, and a run oriented team. Granted, our run game has been nonexistent...but that's not the schemes fault. Marshall is not a receiver to blaze by a DB to grab a 50 yard bomb. He's gonna catch a 10 yard slant, break a tackle, and go for 30 more.
Which is exactly why we need a TRUE vertical threat to give him more space to operate under. By "true" threat I mean someone who is a threat to get deep on any given play, not someone who can merely get deep "occasionally". We all know that Hartline can get deep once in a while, but he does not truly threaten a defense or force them to worry about him blowing by their coverage to where they have to take coverage away from Marshall to protect themselves.
We need Mike Sims-Walker, AJ Green (virtually impossible), or Justin Blackmon. Or the guy I wanted this past preseason, Mike Williams from Seattle, could be a nice pick up since he'll be a FA.
KillerphinsNew Member"ToddsPhins wrote:
I don't see him not having focus (although I could see how it would appear that way). I see a guy who's incredibly competitive and frustrated b/c he knows he can do more to help this team but he's being draped in coverage and IMO he's putting too much pressure on himself to make plays during the the opportunities he has, that it's causing him to drop some balls etc. Just my opinion.
Fair enough. Tossing the ball to your ex QB.
Lack of focus. Did he care and get back to the huddle.... Nope.
"Conuficus wrote:
Just remember that Marshall missed a great deal of camp and offseason work with Henne due to a hip issue, which got treated late in the process. That has likely had some affect on the combination, especially in their first year.
Good point, and it's not just Marshall. Boldin went from catching 72% to 64%. Fitz, with new QB's in Zona, went fom 66% to 49%. It does take some time for any new combo to be in sync.
KillerphinsNew MemberExcuses...... Marshall is being paid 50 million dollars and he still has 1 TD going into week 14.
The only break I give him is that he works for Henning's horrible offensive scheme.
Even then Marshall should never be a work in progress. Some players get a pass for being lackluster because of their name.
It is totally a copout.
"Killerphins wrote:
Excuses...... Marshall is being paid 50 million dollars and he still has 1 TD going into week 14.
The only break I give him is that he works for Henning's horrible offensive scheme.
Even then Marshall should never be a work in progress. Some players get a pass for being lackluster because of their name.
It is totally a copout.
Pal, The only one making excuses is you when you say a player should be great because of the money he is paid. That just don't happen. I give you football "reasons" as to why things happen. You give me "excuses" because of a player's pay check.
Think about that. :)
"ToddsPhins wrote:
Thanks for pulling the stats SouthBeach. What actually jumps out at me the most is: Our most talented player on offense who excels at making plays once the ball is in his hand has virtually half the YAC as everyone else. What this tells me is that Marshall is being smothered and defenses are taking him away his strength.... which is what I've been saying all along.
This also tells me how important it is to get another pass catcher in here who can help draw the coverage away from Brandon so he has a chance to do his thing. What's the point of having an elite WR if we don't give him an opportunity to be elite? IMO this is a bigger problem than using a 1st round pick on a RB.
On a side note, this has gotta be driving Marshall crazy. I'd be frustrated as hell if I were him.
Todd, That jumped out to me as well. I'm sure the coverage on Marshall has a lot to do with his play but, he faced the same when he was "The Lone Ranger" in Denver.
I tend to believe that it is lack of time he and Henne had to know each other, added into the "Don't Make Any Mistakes? philosophy. Let them both get together on reads, cuts, just playing together, and I think it will be a very special combo next year.
Henne is still learning. When the trust is established over time, he will know that Marshall is one of the few WR's in the game who you can throw to when he appears to be covered.
KillerphinsNew Member"Southbeach wrote:
Pal, The only one making excuses is you when you say a player should be great because of the money he is paid. That just don't happen. I give you football "reasons" as to why things happen. You give me "excuses" because of a player's pay check.
Think about that. :)
All I heard were great expectations from Marshall. He was supposed to be the savior, the missing piece of the puzzle. That is all I heard here was how we now have a #1 and this offense is going to take off. The facts are BM drops footballs, does stupid things after he makes a routine play and now the guy is struggling to get back on the field. Those are the facts pal. All you have given me is someone elses opinion and the reasoning for why you are letting him off the hook. I'm telling you that so far Marshall has been a disappointment who isn't worth the money he is being paid. Believe me it makes a difference. Me giving you excuses for what? You are just pissed because I am right about Marshall being a fraud. The facts you have given me about Marshall have further reinforced my point. Nice try but you can't prove your theory is right and my eyes don't lie. Marshall was a waste of money and draft picks until he proves otherwise which won't be this season.
"Killerphins wrote:
All I heard were great expectations from Marshall. He was supposed to be the savior, the missing piece of the puzzle. That is all I heard here was how we now have a #1 and this offense is going to take off. The facts are BM drops footballs, does stupid things after he makes a routine play and now the guy is struggling to get back on the field. Those are the facts pal. All you have given me is someone elses opinion and the reasoning for why you are letting him off the hook. I'm telling you that so far Marshall has been a disappointment who isn't worth the money he is being paid. Believe me it makes a difference. Me giving you excuses for what? You are just pissed because I am right about Marshall being a fraud. The facts you have given me about Marshall have further reinforced my point. Nice try but you can't prove your theory is right and my eyes don't lie. Marshall was a waste of money and draft picks until he proves otherwise which won't be this season.
My friend, Going by what you "heard" seems like an excuse. :) BM has drops, same as all, had two dumb penalties all year, and was injured. OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!
He still has 58 catches for 693, and has played pretty well. I know you would have preferred Guinn but, Ya gotta live with the fact that he's gone, and not coming back.
I am sorry you had to pay half of Marshall's salary. Keep the faith. Your investment will pay dividends next year.
KillerphinsNew Member"Southbeach wrote:
My friend, Going by what you "heard" seems like an excuse. :) BM has drops, same as all, had two dumb penalties all year, and was injured. OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!
He still has 58 catches for 693, and has played pretty well. I know you would have preferred Guinn but, Ya gotta live with the fact that he's gone, and not coming back.
I am sorry you had to pay half of Marshall's salary. Keep the faith. Your investment will pay dividends next year.
Seriously that is all you got..... :lol:
ToddsPhinsNew Member"Southbeach wrote:
Good point, and it's not just Marshall. Boldin went from catching 72% to 64%. Fitz, with new QB's in Zona, went fom 66% to 49%. It does take some time for any new combo to be in sync.
Fitz is also having some problems b/c Boldin isn't there to help him out with coverage...... which is also what can be said about Marshall here.
Log in to reply.