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Play calling gurus UNITE!!!

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Zod, Sep 20, 2010.

  1. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    I made this post this morning. This is an effort not to hijack that thread. This is what I think is happening with our quarterback.

    So I am back from watching the game for a second time and let me say that this was some of the worst camera coverage that we will see for the entire season. Another forum member said there wasn't a replay at the stadium of the Ronnie Brown fumble. There wasn't a replay on national TV neither. This camera crew, producer, director..........all of them sucked. It was like amateur hour.

    But here goes what I saw upon the second viewing. Play call gurus - What would you have done differently?

    1. Pass to Marshall
    2. Run
    3. Wildcat Run
    4. Run
    5. Run
    6. Run
    7. Pass overthrown to Marshall (incomplete)
    8. Run
    9. Pass to Hartline TD

    I do not think anyone would take issue with the series.

    1. Pass to Hartline
    2. Run
    3. Pass called.... Encroachment Vikings
    4. Run
    5. Run
    6. Pass - all deep - sack
    7. Run
    8. Run
    9. Punt

    Yearly I observe critism of various coordinators for NOT passing on first down. Play number 6 was a first down play call. The result was an 8 yard loss. Let's go to gameday call AFTER the sack:

    Clark's comment sounds like reason at first read. But then you have to watch the rest of the game to what's happening on the field. What happens when we ask Henne to regain that yardage?

    1. Run
    2. Run
    3. Pass to Polite (incomplete)
    4. Pass (Sack)
    5. Punt

    Well the passing certainly worked out for us. And sometimes I think the play calling gurus would love to see us pass 50 percent of the time. It does not work - not with this team. And oddly after a run bails us out of the endzone only to fail in the passing game, we get this on the gameday call:

    So we get the ball back with :40 seconds to go in the first half. Cowboys/Redskins ring a bell?

    1. Run
    2. Halftime

    At the half I noticed only on thing that was startling in the statistics. We had points on the board. We were on the road with the lead. There was still one curious statistic though. That statistic was time of possession. The Dolphins defense had been on the field for over 18 minutes. The Vikings defense was only on the field for over 11 minutes. That crap tends to show up in the fourth quarter. The play calling gurus may have used their hindsight machine at the conclusion of a loss. It may have read something like -

    "Freaking Henning! He had the defense on the field for the entire game!"

    Here is what Henning did. He called a 9 play drive for a score. He called an eight play drive that was killed by a sack. He called a four play drive that was killed by a sack. Two drives killed by sacks yet nobody in their right mind would say Henne did not have adequate protection yesterday.

    Once again, let's go to the gameday call to see what the soothsayers are commenting:

    1. Pass - Play Action - check down to RB
    2. Run
    3. Pass - Marshall first down
    4. Pass - Play Action - Hartline 30 yards (incomplete)
    5. Run
    6. Run
    7. Run
    8. Run
    9. Run
    10. Pass - Marshall
    11. Run
    12. Pass - 5 wide

    Let me interrupt here before the punt. This was the first time I have seen 5 wide with no backs left to chip, pick up a blitz, or anything of the sorts. In other words, this is the first time Henning did not protect Henne from himself. This has got to be what the play callers want. Result?

    Zone blitz. I saw it during the action. I actually commented about Henne missing it in the first quoted post in THIS post. The nickel defender left his man so quick that it looked like he was not even there when I was watching live. The linebacker that I noted was moving into the hook zone on that side of the field from the other side of the field. The HOT READ was the slot. The slot was looking back. Henne missed the blitz and then threw the ball into the sideline 10 feet over Brandon Marshall's head. So how about it play callers? Do you want some more 5 wide?

    Let's go to the gameday call during this 12 play drive......

    The lone comment that actually saw the drive killer........

    What he didn't see at the time (nor did I) was that this drive died due to a pass call that was poorly executed by the quarterback. They blitz that nickel defender, you make them pay. That is the game. It did not happen. But as you can see the wildcat and Henning poor play calling was the drive killer. Then again the hindsight machine may have some calling for the sixth consecutive run out of a pro two back set. I just don't know.

    13. Punt

    1. Run - Fumble

    You want to lose a game? That has nothing to do with a play call.

    2. Pass - Marshall
    3. Run - Holding
    4. Pass - 5 receiver set - Fasano screen incomplete

    Now I know the play callers are having fits over this call. I'm going to the gameday thread.

    The thing that goes unnoticed is that the last time Henning called a deep pass on 1st and 10 Henne took a sack to make it 2nd and 18. So what if Henne took a sack on 1st and 20. I mean afterall the entire stadium expected a pass on 1st and 20. Henning calls a screen to make up yardage and that screen is batted at the line. The call sucks because it was incomplete. If it's not incomplete we are looking at 2nd and 8 or better. So now we are off to 2nd and 20 because we can't complete a freakin' screen pass.

    5. Pass - Now it's a full fledge 5 wide. No Fasano on the field and no backs on the field. We've got this one on the shoulders of the quarterback. He's got his big chance to make a play. Result? Sack. The play callers go silent except for a few.

    6. Pass
    7. Punt

    End of the 3rd

    The time of possession is back from "out of whack". The phins defense has been on the field for 24 minutes. The vikings defense has been on the field for 21 minutes. They have 3 turnovers and we have 1. That big beast they have only has 67 yards rushing and it's beginning to look like he will be held under 100. But then the coach on the other side grows a brain. He takes the ball out of Brett Favre's hand and puts it on Adrian Peterson.

    1. Run - 4 yard loss
    2. Pass - Hitch to Hartline
    3. Pass - Incomplete to Marshall
    4. Punt

    Two opportunities to do something in the passing game. Result? Nothing.

    1. Run - Fumble

    1. Run -
    2. Bootleg - Run
    3. Run
    4. Run
    5. Pass - batted at the line
    6. Punt

    Two opportunities to do something in the passing game. Result? Nothing.



    One of the main things I keep saying to myself is that the play callers are not at practice. They do not know the progress (or lack thereof) of the Miami Dolphins quarterback. I want to think that we are giving these comments a little more study than that of playing Madden 2011 and then watching the live game. But the more I read, the less I think most are participating in anything other than rant. What I continually see is a quarterback being protected. That is the effect of play action. That is the effect of a two back offense that chips DE and takes on blitzers.

    I see an offense limited by the capability of the quarterback. Remember that I said capability. I did not say potential. As each week passes, this quarterback is being given opportunities. I believe that he will improve marginally each week.

    I think I will leave this thread to run it's course now. But I want to leave a closing thought that I realized late in the game. The Dolphins went 5 wide on three different occassions during the course of the game. I view that as taking the training wheels off the quarterback because there is absolutely no threat of a running game. The passing game failed on all three occassions.

    Do you want to see an innovative, complex offense? We have the Wildcat. We have the Wildcat until the quarterback can ride the bike without training wheels. That is just fact. If you would watch HIS plays, you might realize as much.
     
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  2. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    Whoa. On paper it kinda looks like the 3-punt offense +the wildcat.

    Someone check Dan Henning for a wannstache.
     
  3. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    I have more of an issue with the formations than the playcalling....Henning has been lining Chad up under center with no one behind him since he got here.....its a horsesh-t formation, why not shotgun it?

    Also the 3rd and 4th and 18 playaction has likely NEVER FOOLED ANY HUMAN BEING WITH HALF A BRAIN EVER.
     
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  4. Vengeful Odin

    Vengeful Odin Norse Mod

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    Zod, I have nothing to add to this except good work. I've been one of the few who thinks that Henning has actually done well with our play calling and our scoring issues have been a matter of execution.

    I only got to watch about 60% of the game on my phone, so I didn't have an up-close and personal view, but the play that stood out for me was the TE screen, which I thought was a brilliant call given the down and distance. We just didn't execute (we're generally horrible at running screens, and part of me wonders if that's because they require a different offensive mentality, but that's another post for another day).

    Generally speaking I've continued to be satisfied with Dan Henning's performance as an offensive coordinator. I think folks are quick to blame coaching and play calls when it's actually the execution of said plays that has been the core issue.

    Again, great work, really appreciate this effort.
     
  5. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Well...thanks for all of the effort. Its really hard to break alot of that down, because we cant see it with the play itself...i.e. were guys open etc. The fact remains, we only attempted 15 passes. That's the game the OC called. I think your to critical of Henne, but that's my opinion. The Dolphins went 5 wide and one of them was a TE Screen, which is kinda typical.

    But, the 5 wide is not our strength. I would like to see more 3 WR Power Spreads, with Ronnie in the backfield. You can even move him up to the LOS so he becomes a reciever in this set. We need to use Ronnie much more in the passing game...much more and we dont, which kills me. Im also not a fan of killing the tempo with the WC. We ran it twice in a row yesterday and it killed a drive. Its good as a change up....but...I thought in the first half we were bull dozing them with conventional running. Why even go to the WC? It makes no sense....if your running the ball down their throats, and you insert the WC, forget play action passing...forget passing period.
     
  6. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    [​IMG]


    ...Uh-oh.


    Hide Ricky and Ronnie
     
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  7. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    Great work Zod, but the mob demands blood and won't be satisfied until they get it. No amount of reasoning or logic will calm them.
     
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  8. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    It's about rhythm passing and it was done with Troy Aikman at the beginning of his career. That didn't end up too bad.

    Well I have not seen a 4th and long call since last year but I will tell you what that tells me..........

    What you do not realize is that the play action is part of the protection. The play call wants the route pattern and the receiver group. The motions that the backfield will go through are relevant to nothing but the protection. The actual play call tells you that the playcaller thinks the QB NEEDS max protection in the pocket or he will proceed to screw the pooch.
     
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  9. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    The post was a ramble so I narrowed it to this to start. What do you call on 1st and 20. Remember that I'm going to use the experience of this game to combat whatever you would have called. But I'm game for the exercise. Are you? :pointlol:
     
  10. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Because taking a drop helps the timing, and is supposed to help the QB go through his progressions.
     
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  11. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We also run on 3rd and long often.
     
  12. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    This is really a terrific thread.

    Should be stickied for everyone to read:yes:
     
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  13. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Not when they send 4 on 3 in the A gaps and by the time he takes his drop he has to either bail the pocket or take a sack.

    You dont see Peyton Manning in this situation very often and he is far and beyond the smartest QB this league has ever seen.
     
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  14. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Dallas had one of the best OL's ever and Henne is no Troy Aikman and doesnt have a Novacek, Irvin or Harper out there. Apples and Oranges IMO.


    Either way you chop it doing a PA is pointless, if he has RB's back their thats fine. But why waste time with that worthless motion.
     
  15. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    First, your numbers do not match up.

    Second, you don't see Peyton Manning in that situation because there is only one linebacker in the game when the backfield is empty. And if they send a DB he makes them pay.

    There are 7 zone defenders. There are 4 down linemen. Where did your guy come from? That is where the HOT pass is thrown from the back foot.
     
  16. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    More of these all encompassing lame comments.

    I've followed this debate and I've been involved in it.

    The majority of people are giving LOGIC in their statements about problems they see in our offense. It continues to amaze me the number people that continue to try and rebut those points with shallow statements like this.

    Funny thing is that the counter argument from those supporting Henning has morphed from "there are no problems with our offense" to "it's actually Henne's fault".

    Funny how things change!
    I don't have a problem with that argument either.
    It's possible that Henne is just still too raw and I mentioned that last night in a thread. They may just not trust Henne enough at this point to play with any consistent aggression on offense.

    I noticed on a couple replays Henne being very late in making a decision and getting the ball out to a WR that was open upon making their initial cut in their route. A couple big ones to Marshall where Marshall was Wide open on an out but Henne just didn't get it there on time. There is a big difference in the windows of opportunity in the NFL from college in seperation and the time that a WR is "open". I think Henne is still getting used to that. Hopefully he will.

    Can we just discuss things like Mr. Zod so eloquently put together rather than these condescending remarks? No one is mindlessly screaming for blood.
    They just want to discuss what we see with our team.

    Thankfully, our Defense is playing lights out and we can discuss this with a little less desperation at 2-0.
     
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  17. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Sure...

    In my opinion...first and 20 with Dan Henning calling the plays....opposing offenses are going to be looking screen everyday and twice on Sundays. If WE know whats coming...they sure as hell do. The guy just wont change out of that. Refuses to.

    First and 20 you very well could have gone with a 3WR set Ronnie Brown in the backfield....you have Bess in the Slot, and Brandon Marshall run a mid route over the middle. Don't try and get it all back just try and make 2nd down more manageable. 5 Wide not in the shotgun with Henning making the call, and one of the receivers is Anthony Fasano on 1st and 20. What would you think Henning is gonna call?

    If Henne needed to he could have used Ronnie Brown to dump it off to, who is much better running in space than Anthony Fasano.
     
  18. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Im talking about what ive seen the past 3 years when I see that formation ran, not an isolated play?

    And dude your ASSUMING what defensive coverages are being played vs Manning....If he came out 4 wide with one TE every single play do u think the Ravens or Jets would abandend all but 1 LB? No.
     
  19. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    So you are saying that since our offensive line is not one of the best ever......and since Fasano is not Novcek..........and since Marshall is not Irvin.......and since Hartline is not Harper.......since all that is the case, we should not train the quarterback to utilize rhythmic passing?

    Does not compute!

    So do you think he'll get chewed out for not using the PA motion on 4th and 18 desperation pass at the end of game in his first year as a starter? I mean really......... Are we going to debate this?
     
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  20. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    I don't buy that one.

    Lining up under center rather than shotgun is simply to leave some mystery as to what a play is (run or pass) and where the pocket will be (short or deep drop) rather than helping the QB go through progressions.

    The shotgun helps a QB go through progressions. He's already back and can scan the field much quicker, especially for quick passes. I'm not sure lining up under center helps a QB make his progressions at all over being in shotgun.

    I have to agree with the poster questioning why they would empty the backfield and still leave him under Center.
     
  21. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    We definitely should train him to use rythmic passing. My only contention is that Henning kills that rhythm more often than not.
     
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  22. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Because his drop is supposed to be timed with the route. He knows exactly where in the route the WRs are, based on which step he's taking.
     
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  23. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    He should not be doing on the job training, he should play to this teams offensive strengths and win football games.

    Will he get chewed out? I dont know I dont get to hang out at the facility, and its a common thing not just Henne but Chad aswell.


    Im not all that anti Henning but that formationa and that PA are odd to me.
     
  24. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    I have just had my fill over the past 2 seasons with the "fire Henning" threads. No matter what is pointed out to the mob they ignore it. So I have given up on logic and reason and just went to shallow because I don't give a **** anymore to quite frank about it. I am done with this whole argument. It's every fricking week, multiple times a week. I have had my fill. So excuse my shallowness. I don't have the energy nor the patience anymore to 'discuss' this topic. If "discussion" is what has been truly going on for the past two season. I would call it something else, but you can frame it however you would like.
     
  25. unluckyluciano

    unluckyluciano For My Hero JetsSuck

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    my exact thought when people were complaining about it. I thought if executed it would have cut our travel distance very well, I think the throw by henne was bad.
     
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  26. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    That's a great point but not necessarilly in the context your presenting it IMO.

    That's a timing issue tied to his primary option and you are correct there.
    However, when you get into making progressions to second and third options as posted it is easier for a QB in shotgun formation.

    Additionally, I think Henne is having trouble with what you're mentioning as well, the timing. I'm seeing him late on many of these timing type routes and he may not be handling that drop to route timing you are talking about.
     
  27. tx-fin

    tx-fin Keeping the faith

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    Zod, please don't lower yourself to the "Henne man-crush crowd"; it is pointless. All they will say is "he's a young quarterback, give him time". The dude is 25, has been in the league now for three years, didn't play the entire first year hardly, and had the best teacher anyone could ask for in Pennington. Yet, he still can't make reads, can't throw accurately consistently, and holds the ball toooooooo long.

    The one thing the Miami Dolphins are missing to get to the next level is a QB.

    When they realize that, and stop flogging this dead horse, we will improve.

    Oh, we are 2-0? That proves Henne is a winner? Offense scored 13 points against Buffalo (0-2) and 7 points against Vikings (1-1). Yeah, I sleep well at night.

    Zod, you brought light into a truly dim universe (thephins), and it was so refreshing to read a thread by someone who actually displays knowledge of the game.
    You truly are Ruler of the Universe!
    All hail Zod!!
     
  28. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    I did like that call as well.

    Henne needs to move to be able to move a quick step for an open passing lane to that guy and he just didn't have the thought process to do so.
     
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  29. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    Oh I get it now.

    You are in the Henne sucks camp rather than the Henning sucks camp.
    So you are just a member of a different "mob".
    Makes sense now! :lol:

    So much for your call for intelligent debate on the issue as a whole, you just want everyone saying Henne sucks rather than Henning sucks.
     
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  30. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    No, the opposition does not know what he will call. They never do. I'm sure that I do not have to remind you that this is the reason why Bellichek does not like defensing Henning. And it is also why he has so many critics that are fans of his team. But we are not suppose to be talking about Henning. It's your playcall that is the subject.

    Okay then. You would run the play that has already been run with success. So you are a repetitive guy. You want to repeat successes and a similar play was run just 6 plays earlier.

    You like Marshall on the left on this play. He's coming across to your right. I'm jumping that one. I might get a TD because after I pick it I'm running to the sideline.............and I'm just a dude sitting in a chair typing. What am I saying? It has been ran already BY YOU and you are running the same play that the entire league will run.
     
  31. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I don't think that there is a "Henne sucks" camp. Some people just realize that if you don't have a top-5 QB, the play calling needs to be done in a certain manner. I would rather have the situation we are in now, than what the Dallas Cowboys have.
     
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  32. gafinfan

    gafinfan gunner Club Member

    What a well thought out and stated post, many thanks.
     
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  33. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    I don't even know if I like his praise. :lol:

    Seriously, there is really too much marriage around here. Eeeer.....Uhhhh.. People, you do not have to marry yourself to a specific idea about a player and then spend the rest of you life defensing/killing them.
     
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  34. unluckyluciano

    unluckyluciano For My Hero JetsSuck

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    I don't think henne sucks, I think he is still learning. I hope he can get better, but I do think he does get credit when he does well, as he should, but does not get as much criticism when he does not do as well.
     
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  35. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    That wasn't pointed at you.
    The poster actually showed his hand in his post.

    Hey look I just know something IS wrong with the O and it's passing game.
    I'm not at all saying I know whether it's the offensive coordinator being to conservative because that's his MO or if he's being conservative because they just don't trust Henne enough yet.

    I see signs to support BOTH angles.
    Bottom line is that it's clear something keeping us from being aggressive on offense. The coaching staff may believe thats the right call and it may very well be. It dosen't diminish the fact that it's a weakness that we can all discuss and talk about how that may end up keeping us from being a strong playoff team.

    We brought in a top WR to open up the offense and were clearly still handcuffing it.
    That shows issues somewhere. Ravens fans have to be having this very same discussion.
    They brought in Boldin only to see Flacco and that entire offense struggling excessively in the passing game up to this point.
     
  36. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    It's like this every year isn't it. Every year we show up waiting to see the progress of our quarterback. The thing I don't think people realize is that the confidence only comes from game experience. I don't want to kill him. He's too young for that. I'll listen to the "He's growing" comments all year because well........he still has the opportunity to grow.

    But I do not like it when a fellow is annointed neither. Then it becomes what you have in Dallas. They think they have the quarterback so the coach should be fired. My thinking is that the coach nor the quarterback have proven a damn thing. So it's too early to fire either of them.
     
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  37. Merauder

    Merauder Perseverance

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    Miami scored an offensive touchdown on the first drive. Lets pretend for a moment that Wake never strips Favre in the end zone. For the ENTIRE rest of the game after the opening drive, the offense gets shutout. People don't seem to have a problem with this. It was "game management", right? What a joke. I have seen COUNTLESS drives stall because we have an inept offensive coordinator. Dan...you are damn lucky that the defense came through yesterday. If we had lost, you should have been fired before stepping on the bus. I know a lot of people are on the other side of this argument, but I just need to speak how I feel. It kills me to see how an offense that is capable of putting up ridiculous amounts of points is being COMPLETELY limited by a scared old man. Sorry folks, you can believe whatever you want to believe. But that is the TRUTH. Henne is not the problem. Thank you.
     
  38. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    I still say this regime is ALWAYS going to handcuff our QBs when we're playing more conservatively on the road, so we'll never be happy with the calls by Henning. Henne may be failing to read his progressions because Henning and Sparano are telling him to check down if his 1st option isn't open. Maybe that does reflect that Henne still has a lot of growing to do. I'm hoping it will improve during the next two home games.

    I look at Henne as not someone who instantly "gets it" or develops into a top 5 QB. I see him as someone that consistently, slowly keeps getting a little better until he does reach a top 10 QB level. Problem is, that may take until next season.
     
  39. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    You take gameday coordinators way too seriously. In my defense, I wanted is to just kneel the ball. If he's not going to just throw it deep where no DB could get it, then kneel. Don't give them the chance to score off our mistake. Later in the game we saw two fumbles. Imagine if that was before the half.
     
  40. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I mean it depends on how you define "something wrong". Right now we have an offense with a young QB. Sure, you could "open things up" with Henne, and probably see some success. Dallas opens things up with Romo. Atlanta opens things up with Ryan. Houston opens things up with Schaub. But is that the best way for us to win? I can tell you now, that if those QBs I've mentioned don't play a near perfect game, their teams wont win. With the play calling we have, if Henne doesn't play a near perfect game, we still have a chance, because his mistakes would lead to a punt, not an INT.
     

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