It's the organizations fault Zod. This is what happens to a fan base that see's the leadership of their team not make a single serious investment into what is arguably the most important position on a football team for over a decade. Franchise QB dimentia is destined to set in. As fans we've been waitinng an eternity to go into a season not only comfortable but confident in that position.
No, not reallly. That thread was just a quick way to find comments from those who have seemed to marry themselves to an idea. The commentary is pervasive WEEKLY around here.
Don't open the thread? You're always going to get threads that say "Fire Henning". It happens when you have a collection of normal people without access to the mind of the Coaching staff or the practice field. You're the only person ITT who has to be an *** about it. I haven't advocated firing Henning. I have scratched my head at some of the play calling especially the potential of putting the ball on the ground right before the half. But come one, this is a forum of regular people. Chill out dude.
I know. I don't post about coaching during the week. All I wanted to know is why we didn't kneel. I don't think there's tape showing him getting sacked on a kneel I just don't think it's worth it validating posts when the person has no knowledge of the coaches' mindsets.
Was listening to Colin Cowherd just a bit ago and he was talking to Trent Dilfer. They were talking about the difference between Mark Sanchez in the Baltimore game vs the Pats game....and how in the Baltimore game, Brian Shottenheimer had stated he was over coaching the chains, being to careful with Sanchez. In the Baltimore game, Sanchez threw on 1st or second downs very few times. They ran the ball more on these downs. According to Dilfer, the best looks a QB is gonna get is on first down or second and mid, that is when a defense is going to be in its most vanilla package. Against the Pats, they let Sanchez throw on first and second much more often. Doing this gets the QB in a rhythm which in turn gets a team in rhythm. We will have to go back and look, but how many times is Henne allowed to throw on either 1st or 2nd and manageable?
Heres another tidbit, Henne only had 5 pass attempts in the first half. Lowest in franchise history. The Dolphins have the second fewest pass attempts in the league. No question Henning is calling a VERY conservative game. I guess it remains to be seen what our offense really has....because we dont know yet. I think playing like this puts an incredible amount of pressure on the defense. A huge amount to keep asking your defense to bail you out.
But I did go back and at least count this: 6 out of 7 possessions had a pass on either 1st or 2nd down. The simple way series during the possession to count the rest is counting back from the punt or TD in my post or simply going to the gamebook on the NFL.com.
Its a rhetorical question I was asking. My point is it has been Hennings play calling that has caused our offense to really not click yet. He is managing it to much....much like Brian Shottenheimer did for the Jets against the Ravens. But we are 2-0 and its hard to argue with the approach when we are winning. Allowing your QB only 5 pass attempts in the first half is putting a ton of pressure on your defense, and we need them to play the same fast attacking style they are playing....ALL SEASON LONG. Henning wants to take the approach to play field position...dont make mistakes. But, doesnt forcing a team to give up running the ball and start passing play more into our hands with the defense we have?
But why do we have the second least amount of pass attempts in the league...if Henning is allowing Henne to throw the ball?
5 attempts, in 3 possessions. One possession led to a TD, two led to punts. The two that led to punts were stalled because of sacks.
How do you think the Vikings defense felt about Brett Favre turnover machine yesterday? So would you have had him call more passes on the possession that led to a TD? Or would you have had him call more passes on the two drives that ended with a sack? It seems to me that you are looking around for statistics and anecdotes to say Henning sucks rather than look at the facts that were presented from the play yesterday.
You can't lay all of that at the feet of the OC though. If we start the game with a 40 yard bomb then of course you're going to try to run because you've got the defense on their heels. If we're backed up near our end zone that's going to naturally lead to more rush attempts. If we get the ball back shortly before half (or with a 4 minute drill) we're going to try and run more to kill the clock. You can't just look at the attempts and say it's putting pressure on the defense. You have to look at the context of what lead to those passing attempts, which I think is what Zod was trying to do in his original post.
This is what you want to say. "I do not like the approach." .....and that is fine. Just say it. Say I want to know NOW if Chad Henne is a quarterback that can throw 30 passes a week and not have two interceptions per game. Say that you are a "foot on the floor" guy. I don't mind that. I don't mind that at all. There are teams that win with the "foot on the floor" approach on offense and defense. It's a commendable approach too. But when you have results such as entering the half during Dallas/Redskins game, don't be surprised. That is "foot on the floor" and that is Jason Garrett. I do not think Wade Phillips would make that call.
Some people would be ecstatic if we would throw the football every down but would be unwilling to accept the negative consequences. Henne has been limited in the passing game by design and so far it has worked. He has 0 interceptions. Now ask yourself would you have been happy had we thrown more and had a few turnovers in the passing game yesterday? I bet you right now the proverbial head would be in the sand. I think this we have to pass more whining is just impatient fans who know nothing about game planning with a still green young QB.
Well let's count them up. I counted 21 pass play calls. But if you look at the statistics it says that he had only 15 attempts. Where did the calls go? Do you remember the Bootleg in the endzone? There was two receivers down the field. THAT was a pass called. Did it go in your statistic? No. So how many rush attempts did Henne have yesterday? The statistics show 2. I'm guessing that bootleg was one of the "rushes". The statistics are also showing 2 sacks that also are not included in PASS PLAYS CALLED. We're still missing two CALLED pass attempts. One was blown dead after the snap by the Vikings encroachment penalty. Now we have one missing CALLED pass. I'm not looking that one up for you. You find it. The point is that your stats don't show what has been called. My post did. Dan Henning called 21 pass plays. 9 of the pass plays had a positive result.
First...no where in anything I have said...did I say Henning sucks. What I said was he was calling a very conservative game plan. Heres the breakdown from the game: 1st possesion: # 1-10-MIA 27 (9:27) Change of yard line due to change of possession. 7-C.Henne pass deep right to 19-B.Marshall to MIN 27 for 46 yards (29-L.Sheppard). # 1-10-MIN 27 (8:48) 23-R.Brown right guard to MIN 23 for 4 yards (51-B.Leber, 52-C.Greenway). # 2-6-MIN 23 (8:10) (Shotgun) Direct snap to 23-R.Brown. 23-R.Brown right end to MIN 18 for 5 yards (56-E.Henderson). # 3-1-MIN 18 (7:32) 36-L.Polite up the middle to MIN 16 for 2 yards (91-R.Edwards, 93-K.Williams). # 1-10-MIN 16 (6:49) (Shotgun) Direct snap to 23-R.Brown. 34-R.Williams left end to MIN 10 for 6 yards (20-M.Williams). # 2-4-MIN 10 (6:09) (Shotgun) 34-R.Williams left end to MIN 3 for 7 yards (51-B.Leber). # 1-3-MIN 3 (5:30) 7-C.Henne pass incomplete short right to 19-B.Marshall. # 2-3-MIN 3 (5:27) (Shotgun) 71-C.Procter reported in as eligible. Direct snap to 23-R.Brown. 23-R.Brown right guard to MIN 5 for -2 yards (98-L.Guion). # 3-5-MIN 5 (4:45) 7-C.Henne pass short right to 82-B.Hartline for 5 yards, TOUCHDOWN. PENALTY on MIN-93-K.Williams, Roughing the Passer, 15 yards, enforced between downs. 9 Plays - 3 Pass 6 Run Second Possesion: 34. 1-10-MIA 33 (1:59) 7-C.Henne pass deep right to 82-B.Hartline to MIN 48 for 19 yards (39-H.Abdullah). 35. 1-10-MIN 48 (1:23) 34-R.Williams up the middle to MIN 46 for 2 yards (91-R.Edwards, 51-B.Leber). 36. 2-8-MIN 46 (:46) PENALTY on MIN-90-F.Evans, Encroachment, 5 yards, enforced at MIN 46 - No Play. 37. 2-3-MIN 41 (:29) 34-R.Williams left guard to MIN 39 for 2 yards (20-M.Williams). 38. END QUARTER 1 # 2nd Quarter 1. Miami Dolphins continues ... 2. 3-1-MIN 39 (15:00) 36-L.Polite up the middle to MIN 36 for 3 yards (93-K.Williams). 3. 1-10-MIN 36 (14:26) 7-C.Henne sacked at MIN 44 for -8 yards (93-K.Williams). WATCH HIGHLIGHT 4. 2-18-MIN 44 (13:50) 23-R.Brown up the middle to MIN 46 for -2 yards (52-C.Greenway). 5. 3-20-MIN 46 (13:11) 36-L.Polite up the middle to MIN 42 for 4 yards (52-C.Greenway; 93-K.Williams). 6. 4-16-MIN 42 (12:40) 2-B.Fields punts 29 yards to MIN 13, Center-92-J.Denney. 87-B.Berrian MUFFS catch, and recovers at MIN 14. 87-B.Berrian to MIN 14 for no gain (50-B.Carpenter). Here, Henne hits Brian Hartline for 19 yards on his first play. On first and 10 from the 48, instead of building a rhythm we hand to Ricky on first. Which gains two. After the encroachment, on 2nd and now 3, he calls another run, this would have been a perfect time to allow Henne to pass....3rd and 1 Obvious to Lou Polite. Now, on first down, Henne gets sacked making it 2nd and 18. Does Henning do anything to allow Henne to get anything back? No, we run Ronnie up the middle for -2 yards.....and on 3rd and 16...we run Lusaka Polite up the middle for 4.....after punting...Minnesota gets the ball at the 14. My question....if we are inside the Minn 45 yard line after Henne gets sacked....why be so restrictive? Let him play..if he throws a pick...chances are its not that much better field position then they got after our punt....
wow long winded bias post trying to look smart. throwing the play calls out as "proof" of you opinions masked as interpretations of facts is all very nice facade for really stating you want Penny to start
Not at all. Sure some say get rid of him, but can you say the majority of the board does so, I'm willing to bet you can't.
And I also thinks its beyond that anyone who actually questions something....no matter what the argument is....we have a percentage of posters who want to label them "whiners". Just because Im not a fan of how Henning calls a game, doesnt mean I hate him....
Yeah, exactly. Thanks for making our point. BECAUSE Peyton is smart enough he doesn't NEED to be put in this situation. They put young QB's under center because you don;t have to interrupt your read of the defense by taking your eyes off it to receive the shotgum snap. You can read the defense all the way from pre-snap through your throw. Easier for a young QB whose main problem right now is reading defenses and going through progressions quickly enough. His main problem is not lack of adequate protection. He has plenty of time. More than he should need, imo.
You know BP...that actually makes alot of sense, and hadnt thought of it that way, not having to take your eyes off the defense to recieve a snap. Good point!
I didnt like that they went to the Cat that quickly...thats just me though....I wanna see more shots downfield....Brandon will catch it, you have to have belief (Henne does) that when you put the ball up, he will fight and come down with it (Andre Johnson yesterday)...thats what makes these guys so special...they go and get it... I feel sometimes Henne thinks he has to make this perfect pass to Marshall in stride...and that isnt the case...
grow up funny we were what under Penny last year? oh 0-3 yeah so that clearly worked I love Penny by the way. i HATE that the "I am right and smarter than you" crowd is back. they r not up 4 discussion but to try to use intimidation, long thesis', or posts inundated with so much info designed to muddy the waters. Henning is what he is, not good or bad, just a diff philosophy than some. i like it, he will control the ball not give the game away when leading, limit risk when leading n really controlling the LOS on both sides. Henne because he is 25 is or should be a finished product and has stzrted < 1 full season still? thats an ignorant statement. Henne is still growing n maturing as a qb. part of that explicitly means there isnt a guarentee. has he made mistakes? yes. BUT last year he showed the ability to make throws and reads last year, yet he cant? we throw 15 times, 15. you interpret that is because we dont trust henne n dismiss the opposition that this has always been the philosophy Henning had & not a Henne issue. so believe yourself rig, superior, if it makes u feel better
There are some valid reasons (and advantages) for a young QB to be under center. Here are quotes from a great article where Ohio State coaches discuss the differences and their use at the NFL level: - discussion on Shotgun versus Under Center for young QB's And regarding the shotgun? Well, Henne is no running threat. And I'd rather he have longer to read the defense and go through progressions since that's what he is struggling with.
meaning his post was a long winded way of saying he doesnt like Henne & tries to pretend he proved Henne sucks
Another great explanation of the Pro's and Con's of shotgun for a QB, from SmartFootball.com. When I read that, it sounds to me like Henne needs to be under center. His biggest hurdle right now is quickly reading the defense, getting through his progressions and making his read/decision quickly enough. Being under center is advantageous to that. Were he a more scrambling QB, it seems like the shotgun would be better.
An offense only scoring 7 points. That's my definition. lol. Not many SB champs are made that way. I do agree with you, though.
I just dont see it guys, he at this level should be able to read defenses, taking the 1/2 second it takes to retrieve the sanp out of the gun shouldnt blow up the play in general... If anything he is making up that 1/2 second and more by being in the shotgun in the first place, so while he maybe able to read the intial LOS set-up....he is missing the last 90 degrees as he goes into his drop... as opposed to when he stands unbladed in the gun, and sees ultimatelly what the defense is trying to do after the snap... bottom line, is even this cat cant read a defense than I am not sure he is the guy, actually strike that, he isnt the guy...
Well...lets see. Henne has started what 15-16 games? There are 32 teams in this league.... You think he has seen every defensive alignment already that allows him to read a defense.....??? No QB in his stage of development could read a defense like what you are describing....
Very interesting debate, both sides.. I think you have to go with your eyes when it becomes this grey, especially seeing that last year both the scheme, and Henne, looked much more rhythmic, and not so conservative..Now when you have a QB that was completely dedicated through the offseason, menatlly and physically, it's a pretty good barometer for progression, and we should allow our progression chart for him be relative to what 2nd year starter's achieve, which usually is staying pretty even as their first. I think what we have here is an unusual set of variables impeding the visual progression, being on the road the first two week's, and the tempo jump in speed, combined with those enviroments, could be keeping us from seeing how Henne has gotten better or worse.
"should" means nothing, sadly. When you are a 1/2 second behind reading the play in the NFL, you are pretty much screwed in your progressions. Guys will get open before you see it, then NOT be open by the time you find them. Know what though? The only real way to find out would be to put him in shotgun and see how he does. Problem is, as the articles say, then you DON'T learn to have to develop great footwork, you don;t learn to read defenses as well either, plus it removes most of the power running game threat so defenses can lay back more into pass coverage which makes it harder for the QB too. So, all told I think there are more benefits to him being under center for now. It will help his development long term, imo. And it helps him now too. I agree with your concern about a QB not being able to already quickly read defenses after four years starting at Michigan, three training camps and a season's worth of NFL starts. but, he is still young and though he is obviously no Peyton Manning, he will develop into a very good QB imo. Let's not give up on him. There are VERY few (if any) young QB's with more promise than Henne.
thats the point throw him in there and see what he can do....all the X's and O's stats, papers, experts etc etc only say and get you so far....we have to use what we see....and right now I see a guy who is inconsistant as far as touch, reads, and confidence....in a way for as much as the Jets get dogged for "not taking the kid gloves off of Sanchez" the same exact thing can be said for Henne......let the kid loose, he has a nice arm, whatever opens and close as far as WR reads is okay, because his arm will make-up for it...Henne can manage the game, he has improved on that since last year, he isnt making mistakes late like he did last year.... I want to see some shots 10-20 yards routes......I think all he needs is a game where he hits like 2 of them and his confidence will grow and grow...just ike it did when he tossed it up there to Marshall on the first play from scrimmage.....
Tough call. I'm impatient to see more scoring and more throwing to. I guess it's exciting to think about. Meanwhile the coaches are bringing him along quite gradually. That said, Sparano said after the Bills game that Henne is free to take more shots than HENNE is choosing to take. So the 'leashed by a conservative coach' thing may be overstated. I think the bigger reason for Henne not going bombs away is that he doesn;t trust his reads of the defense yet. He seems uncertain in his reads and slow in his progression, only taking very obvious throws. As his mental game improves, he will take more shots. For now, I'd rather win with one TD by Henne than lose with 3 TDs and 2 INTs.
Does anyone think this regime is trying to change the game in offensive philosophy in the modern era?. I do...and I also think there is a passing game in there that is being practiced, that we haven't seen..I think our coaches think and gameplan through specific formation principle's, and I don't think they are willing to comprimise.. We won the game in the first half when it was man on man..and we allowed them back into the game with our own mistake's...The philosophy of old school smashmouth football is being executed with bigger and stronger player's, henne is being taught how to manage a game in the process, Marshall is being used for decoy, spacing, and the running game,and simple fundamental football is coming first, than we go from there.This team is being built and trained for the big picture...dynasty... We all know Chad Henne can sling the rock, what we didn't know is if he could manage the game, were going through some speed bumps in the process, but in the long run, it will pay off..
