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Pope Francis wishes Muslims a happy Ramadan

Discussion in 'Religion and Spirituality' started by Frumundah Finnatic, Aug 3, 2013.

  1. Frumundah Finnatic

    Frumundah Finnatic U Mad Miami?

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    I am liking this pope more and more.However, it would be nice to see a Pope do something about child molestation in their Church for once.
     
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  2. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I understand your concern for children. Unfortunately, as all of us are human, sin, even horrible sin, will continue.

    What has to change (and I think has) is the refusal of diocesan bishops and other Church hierarchy to tolerate pedophilia. The thing the Roman Curia never understood was the sense of betrayal by first the American Church, the Irish Church, and then others to the practice of transferring predator priests from one parish to another. I believe those days are over.
     
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  3. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The Pope is a head of state and a chief priest. He represents all Catholics when he reaches out to all Muslims. He has bishops in the hierarchy he heads who are supposed to take care of the problem of pedophile priests. As head of the church, he doesn't get personally involved. He sets policy and gives his bishops marching orders.

    His marching orders were to "act decisively" to root out and punish pedophile priests:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...ch-punish-pedophile-priests-article-1.1308895

    I have a feeling that when the next scandal surfaces, either the priest responsible will find himself with very little support or the bishop will be called to Rome for "consultation."
     
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  4. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    If the next priest suspected pedophilia is not turned over to the police and defrocked when found guilty, then the Church has not yet learned its lesson.
     
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  5. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    This Pope is great IMO so far, exactly the way I believe.....he is cutting cost in the church on all levels, isn't flashy, genuinely cares about everybody, most importantly the poor....RESPECTS all religions....it is nice to see a more sensible, common sense approach to contemporary religion yet keep many of the traditions...
     
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  6. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    Amen, lets hope....
     
  7. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    The RC is in a bind when it comes to priests as the process to install one takes 6 yrs and it's not as if there is a long line of single men willing to go through what amounts to a Master's education, complete it, then remain celibate for the rest of their lives.

    I do think there are many things they can do such as raising the mandatory retirement age, that would make it far easier to boot out priests who transgress such a vital trust.

    Other issue is, if the RC is in the forgiveness business, is child molestation unforgivable?

    I'd say no, it's not, however that does not mean you keep them in office, it may be forgivable in a Christian sense, but not a Church sense. You can be forgiven, you cannot remain a priest or bishop or hold any office at all.

    Basically, it makes them patently unfit to serve God in that capacity.
     
  8. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I am a pastor rostered with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. While we have only rarely had a problem with pedophilia amongst our rostered leaders we have had our share of sexual misconduct between clergy and the laity (and sometimes between the clergy themselves!) We practice zero tolerance. If you are found to be guilty of misconduct you are removed from the clergy roster and barred from reapplying for at least 5 years. In practice, they very, very rarely are reinstated.

    For us it is not a forgiveness question but a question of loving our neighbors. Is it loving to put someone who has a history of predatory behavior back into temptation? It is loving to put another congregation's people at that risk either?

    It was here that the Roman Church fell down in America in my opinion. They mistook forgiveness for cure.

    It is a bit understandable I suppose in that priests in the Roman or Orthodox systems have inherently joined a new group, while Protestant Clergy's authority does not derive from a change in the individual but from a "called" individual occupying an office. We are not removing a brother (or in our case possibly sister) from a separate class but only no longer allowing them to hold an office.
     
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  9. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I love you Ohio, but the Catholic Church did not mistake anything. They knew those priests weren't cured, they were just trying to avoid scandal and save the name of the Church instead of its spirit.
     
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  10. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    (sigh) cynical but likely true.
     
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  11. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Cynicism is to Atheism as Optimism is to Christianity.:up:
     
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  12. Pagan

    Pagan Metal & a Mustang

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    Sorry padre. I say yes, it is.

    Someone destroys a child's innocence and leaves them scarred for life, die in a fire.
     
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  13. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Then no one can be redeemed Pagan, which is why I said what I said.

    No one is beyond redemption, not yet.

    I'm far from a unicorn and butterfly evangelist, no one is beyond redemption however on the other side one then suffers the consequences in this life for what one does do.
     
  14. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    For myself OhioP, there will always be a war between the flesh and the higher self, what the classic Church demands of the Clergy virtually guarantees there will be transgressions.

    One may have a heart full of love, we also have a body filled with biology.

    I've spent more then a few moments sitting next to a youth pastor at a strip club to know of what I speak of on that one.
     
  15. Frumundah Finnatic

    Frumundah Finnatic U Mad Miami?

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    Isnt that what the Jesuits are supposed to be about?
     
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  16. Pagan

    Pagan Metal & a Mustang

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    Good thing I'm not God then. ;)
     
  17. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I'm not being argumentative, but how do you define redemption in the way you're using it?
     
  18. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I find the idea that all sins are equal to be one of the more peculiar tenants of christianity. Particularly, with how unevenly it seems to be applied. You have people in mixed fabric shirts quoting leviticus to denounce homosexuality. For me, there is no question that raping a child is unforgivable. Where as coveting, while unhealthy, isn't that big of a deal.

    Sent from my SGH-T959V using Tapatalk 2
     
  19. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Putting ones soul and mind into right relationship to the Divine FinD.

    Internally, such a molester can be forgiven, that does not preclude external consequences.

    For example, in my neck of the woods a couple took it upon themselves to start killing registered sex offenders in a neighboring county, literally just working down the list.

    Such is not unexpected, like the defrocked priest Gaughan being killed while in prison, internally he could have made peace with God, externally is a different matter altogether.
     
  20. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    They could just as easily quote Romans TT, but Leviticus has more of an old school/harsh wording.

    Oddly enough, this pontiff said something along the lines of "who am I to judge gay people" and was a bit surprised it received no attention.

    The commandment to forgive really is designed more for the person doing the forgiving then the person being forgiven, the way the mind works when bitterness enters into the mind it poisons everything henceforth.
     
  21. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    No, I know you don't mean "secular redemption". What I'm asking is how you define redemption from your God?

    For example, a convicted pedophile genuinely repents in prison, is redemption for him that he's going to heaven? Or is it he is not going to heaven but he's now ok with it and accepts his fate? Or something else entirely?

    Also, Ohio, feel free to jump in here.
     
  22. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I chose leviticus because it also has strictures against mixing fabrics. And, I was more referring to all sins being equal under the eyes of god than forgiveness, but I think I should have been clearer. Not that I agree that forgiveness should be universal anyway. I can hate and be happy.



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  23. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's because the church followed his statement up with, "but you're still going to hell." the same day. Which seems kind of judgmental to me.

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  24. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    ESPECIALLY under the umbrella of a organization that is supposed to be doing EXACTLY the opposite......that makes it even more disgusting...those people arent men of God, they are gross filth put there by something other than God....
     
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  25. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    It would be both, he'd accept his current condition and be redeemed by Christ once he passes on.
     
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  26. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Oh okay, I do not exactly follow what the RC does day to day.
     
  27. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    To be fair, he also said that gays should not be marginalized in society. Which, upon reflection is a more profound and important sentiment. At least, I think it was the pope that said that.

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  28. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Ok, I just wanted to understand where you were coming from. I hope that gives you comfort then.
     
  29. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    To Redeem" is to "buy back". One of the understandings of "sin" is to be "indebted" to God (the other most common definitions are to "miss the mark" or to "trespass"). This comes from our understanding that God created humanity to freely be in community with God, praising Him as creator. When we "sinned" it was by looking to self instead of God and others. Thus we owe a debt to the creator for not being what we were created to be. Keep in mind in Middle Eastern culture a family was obligated to pay the debts of its fellow family members.

    We Christians understand that in Jesus' life, death, and resurrection He "bought us back", paying our debt.

    Hope this helps you understand the underpinnings of how we think.

    As to "forgivable" vs. "unforgivable" it goes back to what I say about being loving. Sometimes the most loving thing you can do for a community is to take a person out of it. I am talking about jail not vigilante murder. The community needs to be loved as individuals and as a group. I can accept that someone is in relationship with God and still want them separated away from folks.
     
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  30. Finphreak

    Finphreak Banned

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    The next time society lets free a pedophile I'll blame non-Catholics.


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  31. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Hmmmmm. That's the same thing for sure.:pity:
     
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  32. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I've never heard it put that way. Very interesting. Thank you.
     
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  33. Finphreak

    Finphreak Banned

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    Sure it is. Blaming all Catholics for individual actions is like blaming all non Catholics for individual actions. I assume you blame all Muslims for 9/11?


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  34. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I never blamed all Catholics. I blamed the Church. And I'm blaming them for covering up the pedophilia by their priests, the moving of child rapists from one perish to another endangering a whole new set of kids, and I'm also blaming them for strong arming and paying off families so these priests can avoid secular prosecution. All of that makes your analogy stupid.

    Don't start crap in here.
     
  35. Pagan

    Pagan Metal & a Mustang

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    ^^ That.
     
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  36. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    For those outside the Church the word "Church" is often used to describe the hierarchical structure of a denomination or tradition. For those inside it more often describes all the people, the "Body of Christ". We can end up talking past each other using the same language.

    Clearly some Roman Catholic bishops here in America, in Ireland and some other places for a variety of reasons, some honorable and some very much not honorable, played a shell game with predatory priests. Many of us would not say the "Church" did something however, because we understand the meaning of that word differently.
     
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  37. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Fair enough, but I also think its fairly common knowledge that non-Catholics refer to the hierarchy as "the Church", since that's how its referred to in the papers and media. That's why I think that was an attempt to start an argument in here.
     
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  38. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I am not going to rule on another's intent. You are correct regarding the popular usage. I was just giving breadth to the use of language not defending or attacking.
     
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  39. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I know, i was just explaining my thought process to you, so you understood my intent.
     
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  40. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    All good! :wink2:
     
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