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Discussion in 'Religion and Spirituality' started by Finrunner, Sep 3, 2008.
Res...I'll agree to disagree.
Agree to disagree is a copout. That's the problem I've had with Catholics that I've talked to. When I bring up what the Bible says about salvation, prayer, etc, they come back with Church tradition. When I counter with more Bible, they just "agree to disagree." Why is it hard to look at what the Bible teaches, and compare your church traditions/theology to that, and only accept what is supported by the Bible?
Because ultimately it is my choice what I believe and who I choose to debate with. Why cause even further division to the community of believers by constantly debating who is right and who is wrong?
We both love the Lord. Why must you insist that you have the market on how to reach Heaven? Let it be, brother. Please.
Iron sharpeneth iron, I believe the saying goes.
You know, I haven't come in here saying "Well, my church teaches this..." or, "My pastor says this..." I've backed up what I've said with Scripture. My question is, why is it hard for most people to do this? Christianity shouldn't be like a football team...where we're rooting for our particular team to win. Rather, we should be so focused on the Bible that we reject any "team" that doesn't line up with that.
With that, I guess I'll quit posting in this thread. I wouldn't want to be "divisive."
Careful resnor, on the one hand you (and I) look to the Bible, on the other, you look to "Wine.." a non Biblical text to boost your views...
Most folks, even people who have read the Bible Cover to Cover do not know what it says, look deeper and even Scholars of Ancient Greek still do not know the pre 70AD Jewish traditions and outlook.
Nahh Brother, I'm quite correct, the only thing that is needed is yeast, and that floats in the air as a form of wild yeast, that is how Sourdough Bread grows...
For Righteousness sake Rev. I am not a fan of divisions, there is UnRighteous, and Righteous, the twain shall never meet, for all of our young Brother's enthusiasm, and perhaps over reaches that will never go away.
Had to respond to this...
Have you ever used a commentary to fully understand what a particular portion of the Bible is saying? If so, do you then put the commentary on the same level as the Bible? Just the same, when you read the Bible, and you read the word "wine," it is important to know what that word is actually referring to. The only way to do so is to understand how the original word was used in the Hebrew and Greek, and how the context of the word actually applies to the meaning of the word. I don't put that book on a par with the Bible. Rather, it helps me to understand what the Bible is telling me. I take my views on drinking from the Bible. God warns against drinking alcohol because of what it leads to (drunkeness, immorality, poor judgement, etc). I do not believe that it is a sin to take alcohol into your body...but, I do believe that it is an unwise person who drinks alcohol on a regular basis. For example, I don't think that it's a sin to take a capful of cough medicine when you can't sleep because of a cold. Cough medicine is roughly 10% alcohol, a percentage greater than that of most beer. However, I don't think it's ok to drink an entire bottle of cough medicine so that you can feel the effects of it.
The Bible teaches that we are to be in control of our body and our senses. Drinking alcohol inhibits our ability to do so. Not to mention, a Christian drinking alcohol can be a stumbling block to the unsaved, and also to other Christians. Because of this, even IF you could prove that Christ turned the water into wine (which I don't believe you could do), I would still say that in today's society, it would not be right for a Christian to be drinking alcohol.
alright young scholar, do tell, what is the Hebrew and Greek use of the word Wine mean? Were they talking about non alcoholic grape juice?
Such a thing did not exist, let me approach my Strong's Concordance..
oinos in the greek (str 3631)
"yayin" (strong's H3196) effervesce, bubble
That would take fermantation mi Compadre'....
I do not believe that they had C)2 generators to infuse wine with bubbles..
The Bible also say that he who is afflicted, or he who labors heavily may drink wine to gain relief....Proverbs...the foundation of practical Faith my Brother.
As I understand it, and I'll have to go find my copy of Wine in the Bible, there was one word that could mean either grape juice, or fermented grape juice. Either way, it was translated into English as "wine." The way of understanding what "wine" means is to look at it in the context.
By the way, you realize that modern science is proving that drinking unfermented grape juice gives you the same health benefits as fermented...and, in some cases, better health benefits. I just find it somewhat odd that people will look at the Bible, and say that even though the Bible teaches that alcohol is something to be avoided, Proverbs goes so far as to say that those who drink alcohol are fools, are so quick to say that Jesus made alcoholic wine for the wedding. Scripture can't contradict Scripture. Your choice is that the Bible is contradictory, and therefore, void, or, that when the Bible advocates drinking wine, it isn't talking about alcoholic wine.
True, and if one thinks about it, Daily Communion along with a fast would only make those benefits more useful..
"Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." (Leviticus 19:27)
"...do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material." (Leviticus 19:19)
Arent these verses in the Bible...yet...are these still followed today? I asked about this one time..and was told that some versus dont still apply today....my question is...who decides which are and which arent? Seems very sujective...
Well, the short answer is that we are no longer under the law. Many of the rules/laws that you find in the O.T. were things that the Israelites had to do...and, if they broke them, they had to pay the penalty for them. For instance, rebellious children who would not repent were to be stoned. Women on their period were considered unclean. All sorts of things. Many of the ones like the ones about the hair/beard, or clothing, were to show that they were different than the heathen. So, while we don't have to follow them...i.e., we can shave our beards or sideburns, the principle remains the same. We, as Christians, should have a noticeable difference in our appearance from those in this world who are unbelievers.
OK, got a moment.
While I understand your problem, I think you may be looking at it in too small a fashion. Adam and Eve were not the only parts of God's creation that God loved. The Genesis 1 account talks about how God made all things good. God loves ALL creation. If sin enters the world and thus befouls that good creation, the sin (and sinner) must be seperated in order to protect the rest of the creation God loved. Think of hell as eternal quarantine and I think you might get a sense of the way the story is told.
Now then, it does seem as though God has a preference for humanity and thus even after expelling them from the garden (by the way not simply for doing what He told them not to do, but for complete rebellion, the desire "to be like God", i.e. usurp God from His rightful place as creator), God provided for them and set in motion the actions that would ultimately come to fruition in Jesus and His actions to restore us all even though we do not deserve it.
Hope the delay in answering didn't cause a problem.
Each of the earth's religious systems, in some fashion falls back on a sacred text or texts. Whether believed to be given by God in dictation i.e. Koran, Book of Mormon, etc; written by a prophet or Holy one, Bagvhad Gita, Book of Tao, etc; or the Judeo-Christian understanding of "inspired by God", every system has a text that one need ultimately to grant some kind of authority.
Any book of theology for any religious system will then apply logic and/or philosophy to the text in an effort to illuminate it better for followers.
That is all any of us have. For me that is enough though it may be difficult for others to make that leap.
That is what I was trying to say earlier. The decision is akin to not eating meat offered to idols.
In addition, Jesus parable about new wines in old skins presumes fermentation otherwise the skins would not stretch.
Why not? Are you suggesting that our ability to reason limits God's revelation? Perhaps what you see as a contradition, isn't contradictory to God at all? I find many statements in the Bible to be virtual conondrums. I depend that context, timing, and the need of God to explain different things at different times to account for them.
We have Eucharist weekly in worship but while on various retreat settings have had daily Communion and found it very meaningful.
You are so patient, knowledgable and kind in your answers. I throughly enjoy your posts.
Oh...no..not at all. I gladly waited for your answer, as well as looked forward to it. I also look forward to continuing this discussion with everyone, as I personally find it very valuable....and interesting.
Pastor Keith...(Out of respect for what you have accomplished, I will continue referring to you as this....) or PK for short...does that work, while still being respectful?
I guess part of this is just going to be a journey for me....Ive been told that I need to find Christ and become a Christian sooner rather than later, because one never knows what tomorrow brings....but..I feel like just doing so...would really be disingenuous, as I truly do not believe some of it in my heart yet.
I mean...quite honestly...and again..not to be disrespectful...and I feel like the only way I can get anything out of conversations like this, is to be honest, I find alot of logic in what Pagan believes....and for what ever reason...the old world religions such as Druidism, Shamanism, and the more modern Wicca just "feel" more in tune with me....and this is a natural feeling...I havent studied them any more than I have studied Christianity, actually much more less. What could be the reason for this?
I hear the words...God finds all of us...but...why do I feel like he hasn't found me? I have prayed...asking for him to enter my heart...and I end up believing as before...with the same doubts.
I understand if my questions cant get answered, or if this isn't a discussion you want to get into....I wanted to believe, if only because my friend has been so earnest and patient in teaching me about the bible...and you and the rest of everyone have been great in this thread....but...I cant force myself to feel something that isn't there. It always ends up coming back to..."if the Bible is the way" then why cant I feel it?
I agree...I wish you were local..so I could attend your Church..and I will attend my local Lutheran Church...
All of your congregations are very lucky to have you....PK's, Debbies, Rev's, Res's and even those like Pagan's.
Res's convictions are strong...and he tells it plainly, even though his words seem tough to swallow, they are genuine, and meant without any malice what so ever.
Thank you all again...
I appreciate that, VT.
Here I think we are. Although it may be semantics, I do really appreciate the simple Greek word clarifications of the "in" and "on" to "into". IMO, it does change or at least clarify in some way what is being said. Thanks for that.
Here, however, at least as I read the Bible, I guess my interpretation slightly diverges. I really don't think I was knocking community (which I would interpret in simplest terms as a group of believers, be it huge, like a citywide interdenominational Bible study or small, like a Christian thread of believers on ThePhins.com, and I don't necessarily think it has to be defined by a belief system or single theology, although certainly it doesn't preclude it either, as churches from denominations are community as well), and I certainy think and believe in, and think my post referenced, listening to other believers.
At the same time, I think it cuts both ways. For example, and I apologize if I'm misunderstanding you - I am a little thick - when I read "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness..." I take that both personally as well as corporately, and I don't think limiting the personal level and conviction of that is right. I wouldn't think that's Lone Rangerism, as you call it. When I read the Psalms, while I see many calls for announcing God's love to and with the the public assembly, most of them that I read are deeply personal and personally intimate with God Himself. The Psalmists, imo, are seeking God on an individual level, and David, in particular at times, seems to even reference a preincarnate savior (Jesus), and God reveals Himself in that search. So when I'm saying to vt to seek Jesus - because really I think vt's searching for The Truth, and I love when people do that, because I think ultimately the end of that journey for Truth arrives at Jesus - I think that's what he should do. Certainly, there is no question of the role of community, and some of that is being lived out right here in the thread - of which I almost feel like I'm interrupting, because I love your thoughtful answers and insights to vt's questions, and I love resnor's forthrightness in his belief and think both of those are pretty powerful. However, vt isn't the only one going through a process here . I'd bet a lot of us are, but I can specifically testify for myself. Conversely, though, I'm the one that I go to sleep with each night and wake up in the morning and walk through my day and I'm the one who I'll die with. And I have to come to my own conclusions about what I hear. Faith comes through hearing, and hearing is a corporate thing, but faith is an internal one (although it is lived out much in community, as you say).
You asked what it gets you, Pastor Keith, the seeking Jesus? Going back to the Psalmists and what I said earlier about the end of the search for Truth, I think it ends, or at least potentially ends, in a relationship with the Most High God through the person of Jesus Christ. If/when I pray in the morning or night (or anytime), that's what I'm seeking. And to vt's specific question (or Hero 13 question about belief in God on a separate thread), I've heard a lot of answers and not all of them sound the same to me. At some point, I've just got to fall back on what I understand in God's Word through what the Holy Spirit has allowed me to understand, and I get to that through seeking Jesus, flawed as my seeking and understanding may be.
Hope this makes sense and doesn't sound like psychobabble. And the rest of you guys, carry on!
Oh and by the way, Pastor Keith, if my posts aren't saying it enough alone in what I'm writing, count me in on the bandwagon of people thanking you -- not only for your posts but for praying for me. You shine Christ. It's certainly been a privilege.
And as long as I'm doing that, I want to thank the rest of you guys, too -- resnor and Doc, especially, but also dolphindebby, The Rev, vt, Padre, and I'm probably missing one or two -- this thread has been a growing experience for me, and you guys have been the reason.
This is so wonderful. I'm sitting here reading such wonderful things from all of you. I truly feel blessed. It's like our own morning service here on thephins.
I feel like I know each and every one of you. The Lord started this thread for that purpose IMO.
vt, you hang in there, if you just let go, the Lord will lead you. Just listen in your heart for His still, quiet voice. Pray for disearnment, so you'll know when it's Him,and not satan, leading you. I pray for this daily. I've learned the hard way at times that satan is capable of anything.
Just keep praying in earnest, and with an open heart and mind, and the Lord will lead you.
God Bless You.
ALL of you are in my prayers.
I think that many times, religions take the corporate idea a little too far. Catholics have the Church, which comprises the entire religion...Southern Baptists have their convention, and the American Baptists have theirs...Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, same idea. These examples, and there are more, all carry the same idea: universal church. We are, according to this theory, members of a universal church that covers everyone who calls themself Christian. Univeral church theology, however, is really not Biblical. The New Testament teaches that each local church is independent of other local churches, and is autonomous, and as thus, is able to make it's own decisions. Revelation gives a good example, as there are passages devoted to separate, independent, local churches. While we, the saved, are all part of the "Bride of Christ," we are not all part of a universal church.
As to the wineskins...Matthew 9 says this:
"17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved."
Mark 2 says this:
"22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles."
Luke 5 says this:
"37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. 38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved."
I think what should be seen here is that:
1. Christ is not saying that you SHOULD put wine into bottles/skins so that it can ferment. The reason that new wine (unfermented) should not be put into old bottle/skins, is because it will readily make the wine ferment. There is much yeast present in the old bottles/skins. He even says that it is better to put the new wine in new bottles/skins.
2. Christ was talking in a parable. So, we must look at what he was saying. A good explanation that I read is that Christ is referring to himself as the "new wine." The Jewish religion is the "old wine." The Pharisees were "drunk" on the "old wine." They also ended up killing the Messiah. On the flip side, those who accepted Christ, both Jew and Gentile, were accepting the "new wine," and were putting the "new wine" into a "new bottle..." that new bottle being their body.
One other thing...in Biblical times, fermented wine was considered inferior to unfermented, new wine. At the Wedding Feast at Cana, the comment was made that the good wine had been kept until the end...meaning, the wine that Jesus had made was not fermented.
WOW.....what a great discussion. Finrunner,great idea. My hats off to you all for keeping it so brotherly. VT, man I feel your pain, so to speak. DD gave you some great advise. Please dont give up. I think it takes a MAN to admit what you have said. While I dont agree with everything ANYONE has said on here, I have truly enjoyed reading through this whole thread.
Allow me a little to explain my background. I was raised in a VERY strict church by a mom and dad that grew up in it also. The Church Of GOD of Prophecy. Very pentecostal. I like discussing this subject with who ever will have a go at it. I never was able to read the bible much because of the way it was written, old time talking, but when I FINALLY discovered the NIV text, I had no more excuses. I now listen to the BIBLE on my MP3 PLAYER most every day at work. I have gotten a COMPLETELY NEW perspective on what it is all about. VT, if it is at all posible, see if you can try that. It has really come to life for me. My dad is a minister, and at about 73 yrs old, he is still at it. I dont agree with everything I was raised to believe anymore, because of what I have learned from listening to it almost daily. IN one of my talks with a fellow worker, he said that...."you only believe what you do because of how you were raised". Wow, that kind of struck a nerve, since I hadnt been a reader of GODS word to that point. Thats where the mp3 came in. I bought the CDs then started listening. Well, he was partly right. But the key to my listening was that before I turned it on everyday, I would say a little prayer to GOD that he would show me what HE WANTED ME TO SEE. The truth and what I need to hear. I believe most on here have prayed some form of the same prayer. I would make notes and reread these at home. My point on this is that I went into this without the intention of PROVING A POINT. I wanted to know what was right, PERIOD. I think I have been taught some things from childhood, that were not exactly right. I will probably PM some people on here to discuss this some. While I REALLY enjoy a good argument, discussion, debate, whatever you prefer to call it, I think, FOR ME, I need to do some of it in private. SO.......if you get a PM, I am just hoping for an exchange. I dont mind talking about some things on here, but I do better one on one. Understand I am not knocking what you all are doing. Its just me.
I think I have the last post in the Palin thread, so if you havent read that, some might get something out of it. She is special.
Thanks for your time.
First of all let me thank everyone for their comments. Then let me tell all of you why I have been gone this week.
I was hospitalized with light headedness and chest pains. I am feeling better now, though not 100%. The tests all come back saying I have NOT had a heart attack but that something, probably blood pressure and perhaps a nerve problem in my neck have combined to knock me for a loop.
Finrunner, I really appreciate your post number 61 in this thread. I had not understood your earlier comments in that light. It is very articulate. Thank you.
btw, usually to believe has the prepesition "in" attched to it. It is a peculiarity of the NT that when wone is asked to blieve--Jesus, it is generally "into" and not the common "in".
VT, I am not sure why you feel that you and God have not connected. I am sorry for that. I note that Mother Theresa wrote the same thing as did many of the mystics, i.e. Julian of Norwich. It is hard for me to grasp all that because God in Christ has alkways been real and palbable for me. Yet, I have noted others who have lived in that darkness as you have. Mother Theresa sought God in service to others. The mystics found different paths. I urge you to continue the struggle, it is worth it.
Resnor, Resnor, Resnor. No matter what I or anyone else says, no matter what proof is offered, you have your mind set on your belief regarding the wine issue, and so much more. I will let it go since we are doing neither any good and I will not waste good blood pressure on quoting any more scholars to you. I am going to join Rev and simply lift you in prayer despite the fact, (or maybe because of it), you would deny I am a Christian. Best wishes.
How would I deny that you are a Christian? If you believe in Christ's death, and only Christ's death, as your payment for your sins, then you are a Christian. If you believe in Christ's death + anything else, then you are not truly saved.
It's nice, though, to see people be condescending towards someone that they claim is a fellow Christian, simply because I have a different view on wine. It's also nice to see that people won't look at what I say, and point out what was wrong, they instead point to "scholars." Great...scholars are never wrong...I'm not sure I even dare to talk about Bible versions in here...
I said I was going to stop. I am asking you for the second time to let this drop, please.
I'm so glad every thing is ok Ohio. You know you're in my prayers always.
I sure did miss seeing you on here.
You take care of yourself, we need you here to keep us straight.
After reading the last couple of posts I'm going to add my two cents.
I see no need in sarcasm, nor, personal attacks on anyones religion, faith or beliefs. We've never had it before, so why now?
I don't believe some of what all of you do, but I respect it and I love reading your thoughts.
God bless all of you.
Except for the parts about you NOT having a heart attack and feeling better now, none of this sounded too good to me, Pastor Keith. I missed you over the week here (selfishly, because I do, do, do enjoy your posts), and to hear this news -- well, let me just say that I hope to hear better news from you in the coming days. The not-knowing what exactly it is/was in these cases is sometimes as stressful as knowing something bad (well, in a manner of speaking). Here's hoping for nothing but good news on this front. Keep us informed.
I will pray for you.