(Pulled from POFO), RE: Evangelizing, A Response for Christians Between Christians

At this risk of sounding silly....is it ok to call you Kieth? Or is it more appropriate to use Pastor Keith...and I ask this more out of ignorance than anything else.

I do think it is important to become part of a congregation...I think its supportive and nurturing for both myself, and my family, and feel that this is something sorely missing in families today. The Church, what ever church belong to, is a place to go for celebration, support, guidance, healing, and learning. Im not saying the Church is the only place to get this..but rarely does one find them all under one roof.

As I stated before...its figuring out where my heart lies..is most difficult. I struggle with my belief in God, and Jesus as it is written in the Bible. I wonder why it is not so clear to me...as it is so clearly obvious with many of you. You all use the word love so freely, and genuinely, I honestly feel a bit jealous. Not becuase I dont love, I think its quite obvious that I do...but you arent torn or conflicted in your beliefs.

I would ask my friend...why did the people of Jesus's time get to witness his miracles...according to the Bible..and in such great numbers. Maybe I am naive...but actually seeing or touching Jesus, or anything Super Naturally connected with him or God, would ease my soul terrificly.

I really would like to pick a Church to go to....and have thought very hard about attending a Lutheran Church here in Vermont...from what I have read...they seem to be less conservative in their beliefs....and probably align with my beliefs more so.

I also thought strongly about attending the Unitarian Church because of their religious tolerance....and ability to accept all faiths.

It is wonderful discussing all of this with you all....you cant even imagine how this is helping me.

Thanks,

Bryan

Ok...

Let's review. To be saved, according to the Bible, you must accept Christ's death on the cross as your payment for your sins. The Bible teaches that it is not merely belief in Christ, however, as it talks about the demons believing in Christ, but we know that they will end up in the lake of fire. We also know that the Bible says that at the end, there will be many who say "Lord, Lord," and will point to their good works as to why they should be in heaven, and Christ will say, "Depart from me, I never knew you." Is everyone with me so far?

As far as my characterization of Catholics go...my mother, and grandmother, were raised Catholic. My pastor is a former Catholic...he was Catholic until he came to the realization that he had to repent of his sins, and accept Christ's death as the only way to heaven. When I say "most Catholics," I suppose I should say "Catholics that I have met/talked with." While it is true, I am saying that it takes an action on the part of an individual to be saved, i.e., he must ACCEPT Christ's death as the atonement for his sins, it is not his action that saves, it is Christ's blood. Does that make sense? It's like getting a gift. The act of accepting the gift does not equal the gift. God has given man the gift of salvation...if we will accept it. If man didn't have the option of accepting or rejecting salvation, man would not have free will...which the Bible teaches that we do have.

Of course, now I get called "arrogant," simply because I say what the Bible teaches? I'm sorry...even if I were being arrogant, it wouldn't make a practicing Catholic right...at least not any of the Catholics I've met. Catholics, correct me if I'm wrong, believe that to get to heaven you must live a good life. Correct or incorrect? Do Catholics pray to Mary, or do they pray to Jesus? The Bible says that HE is the only "mediator between God and man." Do I think that it is possible that there are Catholics that are truly born again? Yes, yes I do. However, I believe that most practicing Catholics are not. Why? Well, quite simply, I have never met a Catholic who told me that I could know that I was going to heaven. A truly saved person knows this. Also, please, show me in the Bible where it claims that man's traditions hold more water than Holy Scripture...isn't that what one of the biggest problems with the Pharisees was?

As to faith without works being dead...how does that relate to salvation again? Our works are how we can examine our lives, and others, and see whether or not or works are showing our new life. If someone claims they are born again, yet their works show a different story, then they should really search they heart, and see if indeed they did accept Christ as their Saviour.

If you read the book of Acts, that chronicles the early church, you see a pattern. An apostle would preach, and people would accept Christ as their Saviour, and then they would be baptised by immersion, signifying their decision to follow Christ, and also signifying their joining of the local church. What was it that Philip told the Ethiopinan eunuch? "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. I will end with Romans 10:9-11:

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

I think that it's pretty clear how one is saved.

Res....

Thank you for your words...obviously you are very strong in your beliefs...and you just dont say that...you obviously have the knowledge and have spent the time to gain such.

Which is why....for those like me....this whole idea is so very complex...and vexing at the same time.

Also....as a very objective observer....

I dont think what anything you said you meant to be callus. You merely called it as you "saw it".

Heaven and salvation are very powerful things to think about...very powerful.

Thank you, VT. I don't mean to be mean, or arrogant, or anything else. I just believe that when it comes down to where someone will spend eternity, it's better to be honest, than to beat around the bush. I'd rather put my faith in what I see in the Bible, than in what some religion, with man made tradition (not a shot at Catholics, as pretty much every organized religion has tradition) tells me.

But..if I may ask..again..purely based on ignorance...

What proof exhists that the Bible is actually the word of God? It was written by man...and stories were recounted by men....

For example.....it is taken for Gospel that Jesus performed miracles....and that Jesus died on the cross for our sins....because prophets were witness to him after he rose from the dead....but still again....these are accounts from other people....and they are believed fervently by Christians....

Now....many..MANY very honest...trustworthy people as it would appear...have written about seeing UFO's....and in some cases infront of masses of people....and then they write about it....and arent believed.

Do you see what I am getting at?

"vt_dolfan wrote:

At this risk of sounding silly....is it ok to call you Kieth? Or is it more appropriate to use Pastor Keith...and I ask this more out of ignorance than anything else.

I do think it is important to become part of a congregation...I think its supportive and nurturing for both myself, and my family, and feel that this is something sorely missing in families today. The Church, what ever church belong to, is a place to go for celebration, support, guidance, healing, and learning. Im not saying the Church is the only place to get this..but rarely does one find them all under one roof.

As I stated before...its figuring out where my heart lies..is most difficult. I struggle with my belief in God, and Jesus as it is written in the Bible. I wonder why it is not so clear to me...as it is so clearly obvious with many of you. You all use the word love so freely, and genuinely, I honestly feel a bit jealous. Not becuase I dont love, I think its quite obvious that I do...but you arent torn or conflicted in your beliefs.

I would ask my friend...why did the people of Jesus's time get to witness his miracles...according to the Bible..and in such great numbers. Maybe I am naive...but actually seeing or touching Jesus, or anything Super Naturally connected with him or God, would ease my soul terrificly.

I really would like to pick a Church to go to....and have thought very hard about attending a Lutheran Church here in Vermont...from what I have read...they seem to be less conservative in their beliefs....and probably align with my beliefs more so.

I also thought strongly about attending the Unitarian Church because of their religious tolerance....and ability to accept all faiths.

It is wonderful discussing all of this with you all....you cant even imagine how this is helping me.

Thanks,

Bryan

Keith is fine, some choose to use the descriptive Pastor Keith but either is fine. Thank you for asking.

I am not sure how to tell anyone to experiance love. Clearly you are capable of the emotion.

Indeed love in the New Testament has a number of different meanings. The most important is "agape" which is the sacrificial love of God. A love which would not spare even his own son. As I consider this and my, indeed all of our feeble attempts to model that, I am struck by the degree God loves us, loves me. I suppose that's where I start. Worship is first about saying thank you for all that.

I hope you give a Lutheran Church locally a try. Unitarians do not believe in the divinity of Jesus, so while I respect them, we would differ.

"vt_dolfan wrote:

But..if I may ask..again..purely based on ignorance...

What proof exhists that the Bible is actually the word of God? It was written by man...and stories were recounted by men....

For example.....it is taken for Gospel that Jesus performed miracles....and that Jesus died on the cross for our sins....because prophets were witness to him after he rose from the dead....but still again....these are accounts from other people....and they are believed fervently by Christians....

Now....many..MANY very honest...trustworthy people as it would appear...have written about seeing UFO's....and in some cases infront of masses of people....and then they write about it....and arent believed.

Do you see what I am getting at?

If you are waiting for imperical data, I'm sorry, it will not come. Even witnessing the miracles did not bring everyone into relationship.

It is popular today to deny Jesus even existed or that the Church was founded on lies, or that the Bible is part of some ancient conspiracy. I suppose all could be true. Yet, the God I read about in that Bible lives in my personal experiance. I may be delusional but I will take that risk.

I think I understand your angst. Are my answers clear?

Your answers are very clear...and are very meaningful.

Its not really Angst....but for some reason...the only thing that really gets me...is a religious conviction that "it clearly states in the Bible....do this....or this happen"

I mean...I look at it from what I think is logical...( I freely admit alot wont think it is)...but if you take the Bible at its word....God created Adam and Eve, they were his Children....again...Im looking at this from a Father's point of view....and he banished them from paradise because they did something he forbade them to do? Now...would a Father do that to his children? And...since we are all descended from Adam and Eve, we are all...also Gods children....and if we do not accept his word, or follow that of Jesus as it is written in the Bible...we will all go to hell....but as a Father....I would never cast my Children into Hell because they didnt believe my word was the only word. No more than I would cast your Children...or any Children into suffering because they refused to worship me. I guess I would great them at the Door afterwords, and welcome them all...

That seems like what a loving God would do...

I am leading two services today and then we are hosting a stop on the community's "Tour of Homes". It will likely not be until much later today or tommorrow that I get to answer your last questions but I do think I have something of value for you. I ask you to hold on and I'll be back!

"vt_dolfan wrote:

Your answers are very clear...and are very meaningful.

Its not really Angst....but for some reason...the only thing that really gets me...is a religious conviction that "it clearly states in the Bible....do this....or this happen"

I mean...I look at it from what I think is logical...( I freely admit alot wont think it is)...but if you take the Bible at its word....God created Adam and Eve, they were his Children....again...Im looking at this from a Father's point of view....and he banished them from paradise because they did something he forbade them to do? Now...would a Father do that to his children? And...since we are all descended from Adam and Eve, we are all...also Gods children....and if we do not accept his word, or follow that of Jesus as it is written in the Bible...we will all go to hell....but as a Father....I would never cast my Children into Hell because they didnt believe my word was the only word. No more than I would cast your Children...or any Children into suffering because they refused to worship me. I guess I would great them at the Door afterwords, and welcome them all...

That seems like what a loving God would do...

God is love. However, God is not only love. God is a jealous God. God is a God of judgement. God is a God that is to be feared. God is also your friend. God is multi-faceted, yet, too many times, we as humans want to pigeon-hole him as simply a God of love, and we want to assign to God the actions that we as humans would exhibit. God's ways, however, are not man's ways, as the Bible says.

Finally, God is holy and sinless. God could not be God if had sin. It is this characteristic of God that requires that humans be sinless in order to gain entrance to heaven. It is because of this requirement that God sent Jesus to die on the cross, so that we could have the chance to accept his gift as the way to absolve us of our sins. In the Garden of Eden, God communed with man in a way that we have not seen since. Once Adam and Eve sinned, they erected a wall, so to speak, between them and God...a wall that has been passed down as our sin nature to every human being since. God is just, and a just God cannot, and will not, allow sin in heaven. It is not that God sends us to hell. It is that we send ourselves to hell by not accepting God's way out of hell.

Res...

I have heard all of that....honestly....but again....where I lose this...is that everything you said...is based on Bible scripture...and solely Bible scripture...so if you don't believe that the Bible is the sole authority....then this causes pause for me to completely accept as the one and only truth.

Are their sources OTHER than the Bible that back this scenario up? Again...not asking as an argument...but because I dont know...but want to know.

Isn't Jealousy a Sin?

"resnor wrote:

First of all, I'll say this...I would have posted earlier, but I had to go to work. LOL. Secondly, I think that you missed my point with my posts. My intention was to show that Christianity is inherently "offensive" to unbelievers because of what it stands for.

Ok...a couple of other things:

1. The Wedding at Caana. Jesus did not turn the water into alcoholic wine. There is a pretty good book out there called "Wines of the Bible," and it does a really good job of looking at the contexts, and the words in Hebrew/Greek, and showing where wine was alcoholic, and where it wasn't. Even if you discount that book, which would be somewhat difficult, it would be wise to consider Scripture, in relation to other Scripture. Since the Bible says that Jesus is the Word of God (John 1), would it make sense that Christ would write warning after warning after warning about alcohol, and then turn around turn water into wine, thereby causing people to sin by becoming drunk? I think not.

That notion is incorrect Resnor, here is why, there was no such thing as "non alcoholic grape juice" until the 1870's and pasteurization was applied to grape juice, raw grape juice, as soon as it is pressed, starts turning into low grade alcohol, the longer it sits, the higher the content.

When Jeremiah offered the Racchabites wine, they refused, they refused to eat even raisins, the reason being they have an alcohol content.

(Jer 35)

And the Nazarite vow also precluded those things for the same reason.

2. Jesus called the Israelites of his time a "generation of vipers." That doesn't sound very loving...

Which brings up an interesting question, is it only that Generation that he was talking to, was that a blanket statement, or a timely one?

3. Simply claiming Christ is Lord does not save someone. Matthew 7:21-29
"21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." The Bible clearly teaches that you must come to the conclusion that you are a sinner, and that the only way to be saved is through belief in Christ's death on the cross.

True, Magic Candy Mountain people do not like to hear that....now I will say, when the Lord said "I will bless whom I bless..." it is my biblical view, that there are "Naiman's" in other faiths, meaning the Lord may have revealed Himself to them in order to save them.

4. I fully understand, and believe, that we need to love our brothers, both believers, and unbelievers. That, however, does not mean that we don't take a stand against sin.

I don't try to use internet forums as a way to evangelize. I'm not afraid to post my beliefs, however.

My view is that people will believe what they will, without a insight from God into their hearts, it really won't matter what we say, all that can be done is to do as Christ commanded, Love your enemies and bless those that curse you.

My view of the Jewish/Evangelical dynamic is we both could learn from each other, IMO, Rabbinical Scholarship (Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox) is a treasure trove of insights into the Four Gospels, there are layers upon layers where Chris interacts with Jewish Authorities and just plain folks that reveals volumes of those practices.

And IMO, perhaps Evangelicals can offer a sort of clear eyed enthusiasm with works to the Jewish Community.

In my experience Jews can be Cynics Cynics....:lol::lol:

Jealousy is not always a sin, no, at least it is not for God.

As to the only source being the Bible...uh, you're dealing with religions that are based on the Bible. I don't follow what a man says, I follow what the Bible says. If you don't want to follow the Bible, you wouldn't call yourself a Christian. You could be a Muslim, or perhaps a Mormon...

Incorrect, Padre. That is a common misconception. If you leave unpasturized grape juice out, it does not become alcohol. Fermentation of it requires certain things. I suggest you read the book I mentioned.

Res...I'll agree to disagree. :wink2:

Agree to disagree is a copout. That's the problem I've had with Catholics that I've talked to. When I bring up what the Bible says about salvation, prayer, etc, they come back with Church tradition. When I counter with more Bible, they just "agree to disagree." Why is it hard to look at what the Bible teaches, and compare your church traditions/theology to that, and only accept what is supported by the Bible?

"resnor wrote:

Agree to disagree is a copout. That's the problem I've had with Catholics that I've talked to. When I bring up what the Bible says about salvation, prayer, etc, they come back with Church tradition. When I counter with more Bible, they just "agree to disagree." Why is it hard to look at what the Bible teaches, and compare your church traditions/theology to that, and only accept what is supported by the Bible?

Because ultimately it is my choice what I believe and who I choose to debate with. Why cause even further division to the community of believers by constantly debating who is right and who is wrong?

We both love the Lord. Why must you insist that you have the market on how to reach Heaven? Let it be, brother. Please. :wink2:

Iron sharpeneth iron, I believe the saying goes.

You know, I haven't come in here saying "Well, my church teaches this..." or, "My pastor says this..." I've backed up what I've said with Scripture. My question is, why is it hard for most people to do this? Christianity shouldn't be like a football team...where we're rooting for our particular team to win. Rather, we should be so focused on the Bible that we reject any "team" that doesn't line up with that.

With that, I guess I'll quit posting in this thread. I wouldn't want to be "divisive."

"resnor wrote:

Iron sharpeneth iron, I believe the saying goes.

You know, I haven't come in here saying "Well, my church teaches this..." or, "My pastor says this..." I've backed up what I've said with Scripture. My question is, why is it hard for most people to do this? Christianity shouldn't be like a football team...where we're rooting for our particular team to win. Rather, we should be so focused on the Bible that we reject any "team" that doesn't line up with that.

With that, I guess I'll quit posting in this thread. I wouldn't want to be "divisive."

Careful resnor, on the one hand you (and I) look to the Bible, on the other, you look to "Wine.." a non Biblical text to boost your views...

Most folks, even people who have read the Bible Cover to Cover do not know what it says, look deeper and even Scholars of Ancient Greek still do not know the pre 70AD Jewish traditions and outlook.

"resnor wrote:

Incorrect, Padre. That is a common misconception. If you leave unpasturized grape juice out, it does not become alcohol. Fermentation of it requires certain things. I suggest you read the book I mentioned.

Nahh Brother, I'm quite correct, the only thing that is needed is yeast, and that floats in the air as a form of wild yeast, that is how Sourdough Bread grows...

"The Rev wrote:

Because ultimately it is my choice what I believe and who I choose to debate with. Why cause even further division to the community of believers by constantly debating who is right and who is wrong?

We both love the Lord. Why must you insist that you have the market on how to reach Heaven? Let it be, brother. Please. :wink2:

For Righteousness sake Rev. I am not a fan of divisions, there is UnRighteous, and Righteous, the twain shall never meet, for all of our young Brother's enthusiasm, and perhaps over reaches that will never go away.

"padre31 wrote:

Careful resnor, on the one hand you (and I) look to the Bible, on the other, you look to "Wine.." a non Biblical text to boost your views...

Most folks, even people who have read the Bible Cover to Cover do not know what it says, look deeper and even Scholars of Ancient Greek still do not know the pre 70AD Jewish traditions and outlook.

Had to respond to this...

Have you ever used a commentary to fully understand what a particular portion of the Bible is saying? If so, do you then put the commentary on the same level as the Bible? Just the same, when you read the Bible, and you read the word "wine," it is important to know what that word is actually referring to. The only way to do so is to understand how the original word was used in the Hebrew and Greek, and how the context of the word actually applies to the meaning of the word. I don't put that book on a par with the Bible. Rather, it helps me to understand what the Bible is telling me. I take my views on drinking from the Bible. God warns against drinking alcohol because of what it leads to (drunkeness, immorality, poor judgement, etc). I do not believe that it is a sin to take alcohol into your body...but, I do believe that it is an unwise person who drinks alcohol on a regular basis. For example, I don't think that it's a sin to take a capful of cough medicine when you can't sleep because of a cold. Cough medicine is roughly 10% alcohol, a percentage greater than that of most beer. However, I don't think it's ok to drink an entire bottle of cough medicine so that you can feel the effects of it.

The Bible teaches that we are to be in control of our body and our senses. Drinking alcohol inhibits our ability to do so. Not to mention, a Christian drinking alcohol can be a stumbling block to the unsaved, and also to other Christians. Because of this, even IF you could prove that Christ turned the water into wine (which I don't believe you could do), I would still say that in today's society, it would not be right for a Christian to be drinking alcohol.

"resnor wrote:

Had to respond to this...

Have you ever used a commentary to fully understand what a particular portion of the Bible is saying? If so, do you then put the commentary on the same level as the Bible? Just the same, when you read the Bible, and you read the word "wine," it is important to know what that word is actually referring to. The only way to do so is to understand how the original word was used in the Hebrew and Greek, and how the context of the word actually applies to the meaning of the word. I don't put that book on a par with the Bible. Rather, it helps me to understand what the Bible is telling me. I take my views on drinking from the Bible. God warns against drinking alcohol because of what it leads to (drunkeness, immorality, poor judgement, etc). I do not believe that it is a sin to take alcohol into your body...but, I do believe that it is an unwise person who drinks alcohol on a regular basis. For example, I don't think that it's a sin to take a capful of cough medicine when you can't sleep because of a cold. Cough medicine is roughly 10% alcohol, a percentage greater than that of most beer. However, I don't think it's ok to drink an entire bottle of cough medicine so that you can feel the effects of it

.

alright young scholar, do tell, what is the Hebrew and Greek use of the word Wine mean? Were they talking about non alcoholic grape juice?

Such a thing did not exist, let me approach my Strong's Concordance..

oinos in the greek (str 3631)

In Hebrew

"yayin" (strong's H3196) effervesce, bubble

That would take fermantation mi Compadre'....

I do not believe that they had C)2 generators to infuse wine with bubbles..

The Bible teaches that we are to be in control of our body and our senses. Drinking alcohol inhibits our ability to do so. Not to mention, a Christian drinking alcohol can be a stumbling block to the unsaved, and also to other Christians. Because of this, even IF you could prove that Christ turned the water into wine (which I don't believe you could do), I would still say that in today's society, it would not be right for a Christian to be drinking alcohol.

The Bible also say that he who is afflicted, or he who labors heavily may drink wine to gain relief....Proverbs...the foundation of practical Faith my Brother.

As I understand it, and I'll have to go find my copy of Wine in the Bible, there was one word that could mean either grape juice, or fermented grape juice. Either way, it was translated into English as "wine." The way of understanding what "wine" means is to look at it in the context.

By the way, you realize that modern science is proving that drinking unfermented grape juice gives you the same health benefits as fermented...and, in some cases, better health benefits. I just find it somewhat odd that people will look at the Bible, and say that even though the Bible teaches that alcohol is something to be avoided, Proverbs goes so far as to say that those who drink alcohol are fools, are so quick to say that Jesus made alcoholic wine for the wedding. Scripture can't contradict Scripture. Your choice is that the Bible is contradictory, and therefore, void, or, that when the Bible advocates drinking wine, it isn't talking about alcoholic wine.