we already have an old and senile offensive coordinator
why not have an old and senile defensive coordinator to go with him :wink2:

 

65 is the new 45 didn't you hear?

 

Philosophically I hope Groh is not the new DefCord.

What happens when you start hiring well known commodities to run entire units is progress stalls, the old ideas are trotted out and no innovation takes place.

Nothing personally against Al Groh, but we need some young blood, hiring him would be a bit like hiring Bud Carson.

 

I'm with you Parde. I'd rather have some new blood at DC. One thing about Pasq and Groh, and Henning for that matter, is you know what you're going to get. Nothing new.

 

Take Zimmer off of the menu:

Nice, we will contend in 2014!

 

Which also means Ireland has to outperform every other GM who is stocking the 3-4, the pool of talent is only so deep, unless the Staff can squeeze production out of players no one else wants.

Al Groh has NEVER done that.

 

I Already posted this in another thread but it also belongs here. Al Groh's record as a Def Cord isn't very impressive. One decent year with the giants and the rest are middle to the bottom of the pack.



There has to be someone out there better than him.

 

^^ Those rankings are based only on yards allowed. I'd rather also take into consideration points allowed and takeaways. Giving up yardage does not necessarily lose games. Giving up points and not getting turnovers does cost you games.

 

Ok, so what are his numbers in Points allowed?

 

Points Allowed (PA) he dropped from 7th to 12th in the one year he coached the giants D and sort of leveled out in his years coaching NE. still nothing special.


1991 GAINTS PA: 12th
1993 PATSIES PA: 11th
1994 PATSIES PA: 12th
1995 PATSIES PA: 25th
1996 PATSIES PA: 14th

 

There is no such thing as 4-3 or 3-4 players.

 

I disagree.

The difference in skill set for linebackers, inside and out, and what you ask of your defensive lineman...is completely different than the 4-3 and not every player fits that mold.

Theres no way Dwight Freeney is a 3-4 defensive end for example, and the convert to OLB isnt something every player can do.

 

Agreed. In a 3-4 you need that guy in the middle. The NT that can play over the center and control the middle. Your DE's need to be larger than 4-3 ends. They need to be built to play the run first and rush the passer second. Control the LOS that's their job. Your OLB's are your pass rush specialist. They also are where you generate most of your Pass rush. Your ILB's have to be able to play off blocks where as 4-3 Middle linebacker can be smaller and faster ALA Zach T.

With that said we do play some 4-3. Most 3-4 defenses do and mix it up from time to time.

 

On a message board maybe
but not on the football field
you listen too much into the 4-3 hype

 

But there is such thing as players that fit one system better than the other. And one doesn't really need an understanding of those two schemes to see that. Just watch the draft....teams, including us, will be selecting defensive players based on which one of the two they.employ.

So how can there be no such thing?

 

Trying to see the glass as half full rather than half empty, I'd also add that his 1994 defense produced 40 turnovers. That's pretty good. The 1996 unit was good enough to help the Pats reach the SB.

To compare Crennel's results, since he is the other most talked about possibility:
2000 BROWNS PA: 27TH, YDS: 26TH
2001 PATS PA: 6TH, YDS: 24TH
2002 PATS PA: 17TH, YDS: 23RD
2003 PATS PA: 1ST, YDS: 7TH
2004 PATS PA: 2ND, YDS: 9TH

Just as with Groh coaching under Parcells, one has to wonder how much of the Pats success was due to Belichick rather than Crennel.
When going off on his own by taking over the Browns job, his defenses while HC there were as follows:
2005 BROWNS PA:11TH, YDS: 16TH
2006 BROWNS PA: 22ND, YDS: 27TH
2007 BROWNS PA: 21ST, YDS: 30TH (Interesting that was his best team in terms of W-L record at 10-6)
2008 BROWNS PA: 16TH, YDS: 26TH

I don't recall who was the Browns DC under Crennel, but Romeo probably had his influence on the defense as much as Belichick did over him, or Parcells over Groh.

I am not going to worry who we pick. I can accept Groh, Crennel or whomever and figure the trifecta knows which one fits better than I can. :up:

 

Well if thats the way you feel about older coaches, get used to it...Remember who is running the show...Parcells isn't going to venture too far from what he's been successful at in the past and what he knows. That's why Groh is a very, very logical choice.

That said, I don't have as much of an issue with that attacking 3-4 he likes, in fact, it would be a welcome change at this point. Of course, Groh grew up learning off of the Tuna, so this would be a fairly logical move...

 

There is a difference in the players in individual schemes on a very specific level, but overall no there is not a 4-3 or 3-4. Basically any player is going to get used appropriately in one version of one or the other.

 

Player get misused all the time because of schemes, look no further then Joey Porter when we went 1-15. There are some players that don't fit either scheme, I'm not sure how you can say there isnt

 

Joey Porter would have been just fine in that defense had injuries to other players not have damaged things to the point they had to fundamentally alter from the intended defense.

 

Strongly disagree here. Porter was made a strong-side OLB that year with Taylor weak-side. Porter is a very poor run-stopper, worse than Taylor, and having him strong-side nullifies his strongest attribute of rushing the passer. That's a big reason why they were switched this year.

 

It wasn't the same position with the same requirements. Porter was replacing Donnie Spragan in that same role and then playing David Bowens in passing downs. Further, if Porter played Taylors position in the defense that year he would essentially be doing the same thing he did in '08 with his hand on the ground.

 

not to worry. they already had settled the issue of who be the replacement before the fire the guy. we have a professional front office.

 

Not true. In '08, he was weak side versus strong side. So, he didn't have to deal with the TE as well as the OT (and possibly a RB or FB), and his primary responsibility would not be to stop the run, but to rush the passer.

 

So because of Al Groh's age he can't be innovative? Not sure how anyone can reach that conclusion. If anything, him being in the college game would give him more experience dealing with spread offenses.

 

so your saying Miami could take Tampas 6'0 215 lb OLB Geno Hayes and plug him in to Miamis system? or any 3-4 system for that matter..

 

You misunderstand, I said if Porter played the position Taylor did in '07 he would essentially be doing the exact thing he was successful at in '08, basically lining up as far wide as it took to be uncovered and switching opposite the TE regardless of side with little to no coverage or run discipline.

 

I believe Dallas did that. His name was Roy Williams.

 

Ayup, he might not be an everydown starter, but he has his place. What do you think the difference is between that and Yeremiah Bell playing linebacker in Nickel packages here is?

 

well of course everyone can have a role...Jason Allen has a role. but that doesnt mean Hayes has a place in the 3-4 defense.

 

I agree on the age part. After all Dick LeBeau is 73. On the other hand that doesn't make in innovative either. I would think though that if they wanted Al Groh they would already have him singed sealed and delivered. I mean he's already stated he would like to play for Bill again and yet he hasn't been singed. I think they have their sights set on someone different.

 

Gotcha. I did misunderstand. But you've now proven the point we're trying to make. In '07, he played strongside and had a miserable year whereas in '08, he played weakside and had a great year.

 

One other thought, looking at Crennel and Groh...both seemed to do fine when given some talent to work with and their Defenses struggled when talent was lacking. Either one, or the surprise sleeper pick we don't know of yet, will do fine if they got the players. Neither is going to make a silk purse from a sow's ear.