As long as it isn't the "stuck in reverse offense every 3rd and 8+ yards is a play-action pass hey look we're creeping up on the redzone let's go wildcat offense" I'll be happy.

 

"Patriots offense" isn't a scheme. It's a philosophy that the playbook will change from year to year or even game to game to suit the strengths of the current available personnel.

So if we have elements of the WCO, that is the Patriots offense, because someone has determined that the best way to get the most out of our current offensive personnel is to incorporate those elements.

That said, most NFL offenses incorporate at least a little bit of the WCO. Everyone copies everyone else.

 

True, Dez, but some offenses were more heavily WCO. The Eagles of previous years come to mind.

Also, a runningback like Reggie Bush is perfect for WCO types of short passes and such. So, even if the WR route trees and philosophy are not pure WCO, from Bush's perspective, because of his role, he is more liable to interpret the offense that way.

One thing is clear... we will not be seeing paleolithic playcalling this season.

 

Every offense in the NFL has some WCO elements to it.

 

Andy Reid is part of the Bill Walsh coaching tree. He was on the coaching staff of those 1980s 49ers teams. It would be a shock if his Eagles didn't run the WCO.

 

They change some things sure but its not as drastic as you portray it. You can go back and study their offense under Weis in the winning years and now and its really not huge difference. Even their running game is still going strong and they're using the passing game as an extension of it, like every other team seems to do, and similar to what they did before. Pretty much every offense is based off of the personnel available for the game.

Patriots use a lot of different philosophies, like every other NFL team. They are big on the Air Coryell philosophy because Bill Belichick game planned and learned a lot about it in his earlier days. They also use a lot of the Walsh offense philosophy. They use the Run n Shoot philosophy quite a bit today, I'd argue more than the Walsh offense.

 

So, our offense includes designed check downs now.....I see what you did there Sparano. :shifty:

 

He runs a lot of Walsh's offense but he's always said that his biggest influence was LaVell Edwards.

 

I didn't attempt to portray it as some radical overhaul, but they do change their playbook quite often. They don't really care about fitting guys to a playbook, they do the opposite.

If I had said "radical overhaul" instead of "change" then I'd agree with your correction. But I think you're misreading my portrayal.

Which isn't mutually exclusive.

 

The cleanest Walsh offense you're going to see is what Mike Holmgren ran. He was really true to the Walsh offense. Mike Shanahan has added his own spin to it, as he's added the 7 step drops which Walsh's offense didn't have. Jon Gruden has added his own spin to it, as did Andy Reid. Reid uses a lot more shotgun than Walsh's offense did.

 

I don't really agree with that. They don't change their playbook often considering a lot of it is built off of what Tom Brady likes to throw and what he doesn't like to throw. They may add new plays to it (not a significant amount), but I bet you I could go through the film during Weis's time and match it up with today's Patriots offense. Their philosophy may evolve or shift in a different direction but in terms of the playbook and the plays, I don't really see that. They add plays during games, as Belichick used to sometimes draw up plays on the sideline based off of what the defense showed during the game (and not on film study).

The Patriots offense is really a cycle. I think Belichick has talked about this before and its pretty evident in their offense.

 

By the way, no he wasn't. I dunno how I missed it but Andy Reid was never on Walsh's coaching tree despite adopting a lot of his offense. He was on Holmgren's staff.

 

here's a question for you, ALen... what's the difference between the Run and Shoot and the "Spread offense"? Because they seem extremely similar as far as I can tell.

 

It actually is, because LaVell Edwards and Bill Walsh bounced a lot of ideas off each other. Edwards took a lot of the Walsh offense and made adjustments to it. Both guys were big on timing in their passing game. Edwards is a legendary offensive guru and Reid worked under him as a GA, where he learned a lot of his stuff.

 

The spread is a formation that has developed into an offense. Some will debate this, which is fine, but that's the way I look at it. The spread is also an extension of the running game really and what it does is spaces out defenses forcing them to tip their hand. You can disguise only so many things when you're spread out the entire width of the field. This is why some spread coaches nowadays aren't really focused on deciphering coverages, instead they teach their quarterbacks to just go through their reads. The Run n Shoot offense is really option based, meaning they have multiple options built into their routes based off the leverage of the defender. They run their routes based off of what is thrown at them. This is why its so hard to play against those offenses. The Run and Shoot also has two types of philosophies - you have the Tiger Ellisonand Mouse Davis philosophy which is really an extension of the ground game, similiar to what you see nowadays with spread offenses, and then you have the John Jenkins philosophy. Heavily based on vertical stuff. As a matter of fact, John Jenkins had the seam-read route built into every single pass play he had. The seam read route is ran usually by the H or Y and is a safety leverage read. If its 2 high, you run a vertical splitting the safeties in two. If its a single high read, you run across the face of the safety, turning it into a Post.

Now what you're seeing is a blending of these two philosophies, with "spread" teams using a lot of options in their routes based off of sight adjustments (see Patriots offense. This is what its all about) and using the passing game as an extension of the ground game.

Just my 2 cents.

 

The spread goes back years though.

 

When did they last use the 2 TE set as their base formation? Because we're probably going to see that this year.

As for Tom Brady, he's said for years his favorite throw is to the open man, so I don't particularly think he cares about the type of throw so much as the completion.

 

Thanks.

Sounds like there is a higher risk of interceptions in the Run n Shoot if the QB and WR don't 'see the same thing' on the WR's option routes.

And the ground game, for spread and run n shoot, is it more finesse runs like traps, draws, quick pitches and such, rather than power runs?

 

IIRC, they were pretty heavily involved in 2 TE sets over the past few years. I don't really put much into base as others do.

So? Every quarterbacks picks his favorite throws from the playbook. Doesn't mean he can't make others, he just prefers them. They've talked about this before as well, Brady hand selecting plays he likes.

 

It's a pretty strange thing to say, I think. Daboll had some WCO elements imposed on his offense last year when Holgren hired Gil Haskell as a consultant, but that's not really what Daboll brought into Cleveland. As ham-handed a concept as that sounds, I would hope that Daboll would learn and pick up some stuff that he liked, but I can't imagine it's going to supplant everything. The playcalling language is at least going to be Coryell based, I believe.

 

Yeah there is, mainly because you're throwing the ball so much more, but once you practice it (which takes a long *** time I may add), you are usually on the same page. You remember David Klingler? I never watched him live, obviously, but I've watched old games and that was Jenkins offense. It was ridiculous.

Honestly, I don't really know about the run game. I know there's not a lot to it, like the Air Raid offenses you see nowadays (sans Dana Holgorsen at WVU), but they have a few that they like. Couldn't tell you which, sorry.

 

God I hope so. Makes it so much easier on newcomers.

 

This is the first time they've been really successful with it, but Belichick has been trying for years. They had two first round picks pretty close to each other in Daniel Graham and Ben Watson, and pretty consistently had at least a strong role player as a #2 like Christian Fauria or Kyle Brady rather than just a perfunctory player a lot of teams have had.

 

That was an excellent article. The diagrams were very helpful too. Great look at how nothing new is really new. lol.

 

I've tried to find it after the fact, but I coulda swore I read that Sparano was going to make Daboll learn and expand on the stuff from Henning rather than switch it again.

 

No worries. I believe you. It'd be nice for them to use that.

The spread formation goes back before Meyer though, he just used it more often. I think it was Mattie Bell who used it around the mid 30's (34?)? Don't quote me on that though. But yeah, that's pretty much how the Patriots offense is. Nothing new, just a cycle.

I was going to mention Kyle Brady but couldn't remember his damn name. Good call, on him and Fauria.

 

When Dennis Erickson brought the spread to the U and said it was as much a running formation as a passing one, a lot of people didn't get it.

You should put on clinics here, Alen.

 

Haha. Good call on Erickson. He's a really interesting topic. Many view him as a failure because of his recent struggles with success, but man, his One Back (and still is when functioning with good talent) was awesome. Though, he learned it from Jack Elway I believe.

 

I seem to recall that too.

Erickson; there's a guy who had the world by the tail, but his intrinsic personal flaws did him in.

 

Yep. The most infamous prospect from the One Back has to be Ryan Leaf though. After him, every NFL Scout was like "Spread QB? Oh ****" and now its like "Ahh ****, everyones a spread QB". :lol:

Its funny though, the best offenses are the simplest ones IMO. They produce the most both in NFL (ex: Indy Colts) and CFB (ex: Air Raid).

 

This was from an Ireland interview a number of months back:

 

God I hate Ireland's PCs. He only confuses stuff more.

 

That brings up a question: do you think that the run-n-shoot is a simple Offense, even with all of its variables?

I'm not a detail guy, I'm more big-picture and overall concepts/philosophies; but I have a theory that coaches in the NFL have become so risk-averse that Offenses like the RnS have fallen out of favor, while college coaches—in order to maximize their use of a more diffuse talent pool—use it and other concepts like the spread more freely. What do you think?

 

My understanding was the run and shoot was an extremely complicated offense

 

That's a very interesting question. Have to choose my words carefully. I think the foundation, meaning the BASE stuff, is simple. However, the philosophy and the offense as a whole is the most convoluted thing I've seen. And the easiest way to know this is through their practices. They take forever to install the damn thing. I would say it is NOT simple.

I agree with you 110% that NFL offenses are risk-averse. This is absolutely true IMO, which is why I don't like studying NFL offenses. They're all the same. But to get to your question, I don't think the RnS has fallen out of favor. I think the system of the RnS has, but the concepts and some of the teachings absolutely not. If you can find a team that doesn't have the Switch concept in their playbook or doesn't have option routes built into their offense (besides Miami's offense last year :lol:), I'd be shocked. In a nutshell, the RnS is still around, its just not all in your face like before. I think the spread coaches, mainly CFB coaches as you note, use spread because its easier and quicker teaching, thus making it most effective. You don't have as much practice time in college as you do in NFL so thats why its most often used. Give them a few keys and let the guys play.

I will say that NFL coaches do use more of the spread now. I think that's obvious to any and every fan. But you still have guys like Rob Chudzinksi who are ridiculous with the installation of their offense, which I really don't want to get into because the OC where I'm at as an intern is a Chudzinski disciple and I am not really a fan of what we do.

 

That's a revelation; so it's more a product of maximizing limited time than anything else. Thanks!

 

Well ASU is pretty hyped this year, fully stocked with returning talent. Top-15-18 in most pre-season rankings. That defense with Vontaze Burfict has a chance to be one of the best. This is a make or break season for Erickson though, year 5 of his 5 year rebuild plan...

The Sun Devils' base offensive scheme is a pro-style attack but with elements of the spread. It's heavier on the pass than on the run...at least last year it was. Last season Erickson brought in Noel Mazzone to help install some of the spread elements, took a while for everyone on the offense to get on the same page. Everyone in the offense should feel more comfortable in year two.

This should be Erickson's strongest team in Tempe since ASU went 10-3 in his first season at the school (2007). Definitely talented enough to win the PAC-12 South.

 

I would say so. That's just my opinion though. Some feel different toward it, but I think that's the biggest thing out of the spread offense. It allows you to create matchup advantages with that and thus, using your best athletes in space. Its why a lot of the spread and Air Raid guys are just formation based. They quickly install their plays, then they go through and use a ton of formations. Tons of formations + little plays = A lot for defense. What you also end up doing with the spread is you start tagging a lot of your routes. They call it "tagging", but what it really means is extending the play through longer routes. For example, you have a flat route ran by the running back. The running back goes in the flat and sees its Cover 2 Hard, meaning the Cornerback is buzzing the flats. Once the back reads that, he turns his flat route into a wheel route. Another example is the drag route. The drag route is ran to the opposite hash mark by some (not all) at a depth of six to eight yards right? Well if the linebacker is there cutting that off, you don't really get anything out of that route. So what the receiver does is reads the linebacker and turns up the field, turning it into a Corner route by breaking toward the pylon or sideline at 10 yards. One last example is the pivot route you see Wes Welker run a ton of. The receiver takes one step and then takes a diagonal stem to about 5/6 yards and then sits there. His goal is to pass the playside linebacker and sit in between the playside linebacker and the MIKE. But if the playside linebacker sees that coming and negates the route, the wide receiver uses a "bounce" technique by stopping and turning it back outside, which makes it an out route really. Below is an example of the Pivot route and the option of the bounce technique.