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Religion = Bad?

Discussion in 'Religion and Spirituality' started by danmarino, Apr 23, 2019.

  1. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    First, I do not want this to get political, but there may be some aspects of what are perceived nowadays as "right vs left or Repub vs Dem" in this post. Please know that is not my intention, but it's just the way it is...

    The title of my thread was meant to get attention. Not because I think religion is bad, but because we hear that it is from a lot of people. I'm generalizing here, but typically the "Left" thinks Christianity is oppressive, the "Right" thinks Islam is evil, etc..etc. None of that is true.

    Let me tell you all a little story:

    I grew up in Pensacola, Florida...L.A. is what we called it, "Lower Alabama". In other words, the Deep South. My family was poor, I attended mostly black schools and lived in mostly black neighborhoods. I have never, not once, stepped inside any church with my parents. Whenever I'm back in town I always call up some of my old high school friends and we go out and have a few beers and catch up. These guys are a little bit of country, rock-n-roll, and rap all mixed together. Some are well off, some are recovering addicts, and some are still struggling, but all are my friends.

    History class in my schools, especially high school, were very one sided. What I mean by that is, America was and always has been great, slavery was a loooooong time ago so we've gotten better since then, and so forth.

    I mention slavery specifically, well, because in essence that's what this post is about.

    I'm a 45 year old white male, married, with 5 kids. I'm comfortable. My friends would say that I "made it". And I agree with them....I have made it. I want for nothing.

    About 2 months ago I told my wife that I wanted to go back to school and take a few classes at my local University...The University of Iowa. Yes, my wife is an Iowan and dragged me up here to the cold. I wanted to take these classes not because I needed them, but because I wanted to learn something. And man....let me tell you...I have.

    So, growing up I have always been told, "Lazy people are poor"..."Lazy people want something for nothing"..."Work hard and you'll get yours"..etc. Yes, some of that is true. But man-o-man...a lot of that is wrong.

    A class I just finished, "Judaeo-Christian History", has been one of the most enlightening classes I have ever taken. Why? Well, not because it's brought me closer to God, I am already close, that's another thread, but because religion, more specifically a religion class, made me a better human being.

    How? Well, I was assigned a book to read. The Prof. assigned a few dozen books to the class and we had to, basically, do a book report. Part of that report needed to have a biography of the author. My book was called "The Very Good Gospel" by Lisa Sharon Harper. The book was good, but I learned far more when I researched Ms. Harper.

    Ms. Harper, who is around my age, was raised in a good home. "Middle class" as she called it, but there was a catch.

    Her grandmother was raised by a slave.

    Wait! What!? A women my age...her grandmother was raised by a slave? Nope...couldn't be. No way. My grandmother just passed away one month ago! Slavery was a looooooooong time ago. My history teacher told me so....But no...it's true. A person who I could have gone to high school with, my same age, had a grandmother who was raised by a slave!! When you're a child and hear "great" you think ancient....Nope...Not ancient...

    My point? A religion class flicked on a light bulb for me.

    Literally, 2 months ago if someone asked me my opinion on, say, reparations, I would have been against it. I would have been under the mindset that people are trying to get something for nothing. Well, that's just not true. Slavery, and I always knew it was the worst of humankind, was not only bad...but recent. This reality shocked me.

    Slavery is a VERY recent thing and religion shined a light on it for me.

    How difficult it must be, to be a generation or two removed from slavery? And it's not like once slavery ended black people had paradise. They fought for the next 100 years to be treated as equals. Which means that my friends, African American friends, were all raised by people still fighting to be recognized as human beings.

    Unbelievable...Not only their plight, but me taking so long to see this.

    And if not for religion, I would still be blind.
     
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  2. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    Some people feel the need to have religion in their life, and others do not. None of us truly know what's inside someone else's head and heart.

    I am a completely non-religious person. My wife is a devout Southern Baptist. We'll celebrate our 13th wedding anniversary next week. While we're not completely alike, and do disagree on some things, there's an overwhelming overlap of ideals and priorities between us, despite our different positions.

    I watch the world around me and pay attention, while also listening to my heart, and use the combination of gut/instinct and logic/experience to tell me what the right choice is.

    My wife essentially does the same thing, but supplements that with prayer and her belief in a higher power.

    The biggest difference between our approaches is that for me, one of my core values is my understanding that absolutely anything I believe to be true could be wrong. And moreso, nearly everything that I believe to be true is likely at least partially wrong. And then to expand on that, everyone else is wrong about a whole lot of things as well. We're all just doing the best we have with the information at hand, and always need to be willing to adjust when new data is provided. And I feel strongly that if more people took that approach, we'd all get along better than we currently do.

    Given her faith, that isn't quite as true for my wife, although she's a very reasonable person.
     
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  3. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    danmarino - I feel like I want to contribute something here but not sure what angle you were looking for. Is your main point that religion isn't bad (and this was on example of that), or is the slavery-reality check angle more what you were thinking of?
     
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  4. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    First off, thank you danmarino for posting your story. It is nice to listen to people's reflections on life from perspectives I don't usually get to hear.

    Like Galant, I am not sure how to comment beyond that or if you even want comments? If you just wanted to share, then I have read and listened and thank you for it. It doesn't seem like you want to take up the political topic of reparations. That would have been posted elsewhere if I understand you. This seems more like the sharing of a friend who has had a movement phase in their own journey of life!

    To you and to Unlucky I say, thank you for your openness to faith questions. My parishioners are often surprised when I shrug my shoulders and tell them, "I don't know" in response to one of their questions. We clergy are supposed to know all the answers they think. Far from it.

    As I have aged, grown, or just survived, I find myself reflecting more on what does the commandment "Love your neighbor as yourself" truly mean? In light of what we Christians understand to be God's love as sacrificial service, how do we answer another's needs? Not just material needs but also needs for acceptance, respect, dignity,... when is "NO!!!" a good and loving answer? I spend a lot of time on such ruminations. If you add into the mix an honest appraisal of the gifts I believe God has given to me (and each of us has them, I am convinced) and a mandate to use them in service to all, then to determine what to do in each circumstance becomes more involved. I struggle to make my responses natural and yet have to get beyond my own native sinfulness.

    Again, thanks for the posts and I hope we all keep this going for a while. I like hearing all your stories!
     
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  5. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    Excellent post Dan. We do see it so much. One side vs. the other in religion and the other religions are the worst kind of people. There are faults in all humans. I am a non believer that works for a private christian organization. Some of the best people ive met in my life were very religious Christians. Yet, many people would have us believe that's not the case. A broad paint stroke as they say. And that goes for all religions. I grew up very much like you it seems. Extremely diverse background. In the lower side of the spectrum money wise. This gave me great insight through my life on differences between race and cultures. I am thankful for this. Religion can be great for communities and families as well. Seeing them value time with each other and learning with each other. It can be good.
     
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  6. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think both.

    Religion is not bad. There are bad Christians, bad Muslims..shoot, there are Buddhist terrorists. But no religion is bad. People are bad, sure, but a person or even a large group of people is not a religion. A lot of people do bad things in the name of their god...but that's not their religion.


    I used my example because I wanted to show that not only is religion doing good, but it's enriching people's lives. I can't fully explain to you all just how much this one class, due to Ms. Harper, has changed me...seriously. It was a life changing event. Because of religion I am, IMO, trying to be a better person. Ms. Harper has been able to enrich her life because of her faith and now she's enriched mine through her's and my own faith.

    But yes, slavery is something that I always felt was ancient history and those who "whine" about it are looking to get something for nothing. Oh how wrong I was...And yes, I wanted to share with those who think like I did this epiphany I had.
     
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  7. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Please...comment away!

    As for the reparations...let's just say that I am all for them now. lol...Which is funny because I was so adamantly against them for a long time.

    But please, expound on any and all of my post that you want. :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
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  8. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    As of last year, the US was still paying a civil war death pension. The vet married late and adopted a disabled child which was given his pension once he died. She was still living in 2018. I read an Nat Geo article a few years back that said there were something like 35 children of civil war veterans still alive. I think this was 2015ish. We are a very young nation. The worst of our mistakes and missdeeds are not that long ago. There are people reading this that were alive when Alabama wouldn't let a black man play football for them. Crazy.

    I've met good and bad people of many faiths. More good than bad with all, I think. I know people that are better, kinder, more empathetic through their faith. The main problem I have with religion is they suffer from the same human corruption and tribalism that all human organizations do. Only the potential for evil is higher because those that are corrupt are believed to speak with the authorization of a, or the, higher power. IMO this is how things like terrorism happen, and it is why pedophiles are protected.
     
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  9. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Incredible to think about how much affect slavery still has not only on society as a whole, but individuals.
     
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  10. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I've talked about this before, but it seems relevant so I'll bring it up again.

    My best friend in all the world is an African American. I always pronounced and heard his last name one way. Then one day, I heard him say it differently. I asked later if I had been saying it wrong this whole time and said, "I honestly don't care."

    I was shocked by this. I'm an Italian, so the importance of names and family were always pounded into my head since birth. All I could get out was, 'What? Why?!?!?!?"

    He said, it was a slave name. Slaves were often given the last name of the family that owned them. I never felt more stupid. Understand though, he's not militant or anything. In fact, he's an IT manager and computer nerd, with a wife and 3 kids. Golfs, full on into the Dad Life, etc.

    Then I started to think more and more about it. This is precisely why African American people as a whole are always making up new names that most people think are funny, like Raekwon or Yoshonda. They are creating their own culture and identity, because there's was not only taken from them, but the culture and identity of the very people who oppressed them were forced on them to adopt.

    Then I started thinking about traditions and values being handed down from generation to generation. We romanticize the mid-west farmer whose family has been farming the same land and crops for generations. Our hearts melt at the thought that the this generation's farmer might have newer technology, but his values are the same and he will teach those lessons to his boy.

    Imagine though, if your history began at slavery and then continued through abject poverty and oppression. What lessons would be handed down? What traditions? For crying out loud, there's still a metric ton of people still alive that weren't allowed to ride on the front of the bus or dine near white people. What does that do to a people over all this time?

    I'm an atheist myself, but if religion helped bring you to this point, then amen. But, it was also education that brought you here.

    Now the real question though......how close are you from leaving the political dark side and joining me over here on the light?:chuckle:
     
  11. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    You are all describing the insidious side of racism and privilege. It has become such a part of our culture, we don't even see it most of the time. Misogyny and ageism have similar realities but racism is more concentrated.

    My faith compels me to examine those systems and work to defeat them. Would I feel the same way without my faith? I have no way of knowing. Experience has shown me people who do battle without faith so perhaps but mine is rooted there.

    I find great joy, comfort, and belonging within my Christian faith. It is so great I want others to experience that and also be a part of it. It is the root of good Christian evangelism. Trying to sell "fire insurance" is the "bad" side of religion.
     
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  12. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Raised in a Southern Baptist church, son of a preacher man, I was baptized and all that other non-sense it entails.

    I now have the views of Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, etc. God is a delusion, religion poisons everything, and there are no such things as miracles. Christianity, and all other religions are nothing more than man-made, and specifically the male, fantasies; a disgusting extension of the "grass is greener . . ." complex.

    If there is a god, let it prove itself in modern times, and not from some picked over fairy tales that were written by men in attempts to control larger populations through fear. In today's time, boiled down, churches are nothing more than manipulative tax-free business models. The amount of contradictions in the bible are staggering. It's either god's will, or we have free will. He is either omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient, or we have free will and god is a gambler that merely created life forms and has no true control or love for life. Though, more appropriately, there is no god.

    Christianity specifically also provides it's lemmings with extreme irresponsibility and disconnection from their actions by claiming they can just be forgiven via a handful of meaningless words (prayer) with the convenient cover-up of pretending people are just black-heated sinners at their core and are not truly accountable for what/who they are, needing something else than simply enjoying the precious and limited time we have to spend here on Earth among our fellow evolved humans, animals, plants. etc.

    Religion is a sham. God is not love; love is god.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2019
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  13. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I am sorry you have that much anger towards your personal history. Suffice to say, that of course is your opinion to which you are entitled. The work I see each day and the lives we touch give me a radically different view. I hope your view gives you comfort.
     
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  14. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree I drink your milkshake! Club Member

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    I 100% disagree with this and the data backs me up. Typically the "Left" is Christian, because a typical American is Christian. Yes, right now, not religious is blowing up in this country, Christianity still dominates the landscape on both the Right and the Left.
     
  15. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    Reparations?
    Never going to happen.
    Why?
    Because it has to be approved by government, and the government doesn't give a damn about the black community. I can make a very good argument that slavery AND government have been the two biggest detriments to the black community.

    The black struggle really boils down to the seperation of the black family. Slavery separated the black family (of course everyone knows this...hopefully). The government also separated the black family in the 1960s and 1970s with the Welfare acts (Food Stamps Act in the 60s and Section 8 Act in the 70s). For poverty stricken women (mainly black women) to qualify for this free stuff, the government would do door-to-door checks to make sure no male was living there with the woman and children (I am old enough to remember this). So essentially, the government became the head of the black household.

    I am going to quote one of my favorite black economists, Walter E. Williams, where he brilliantly breaks down the government moving the black father out of the home and replacing him with the government...

    "The No. 1 problem among blacks is the effects stemming from a very weak family structure. Children from fatherless homes are likelier to drop out of high school, die by suicide, have behavioral disorders, join gangs, commit crimes and end up in prison. They are also likelier to live in poverty-stricken households. But is the weak black family a legacy of slavery? In 1960, just 22 percent of black children were raised in single-parent families. Fifty years later, more than 70 percent of black children were raised in single-parent families. Here's my question: Was the increase in single-parent black families after 1960 a legacy of slavery, or might it be a legacy of the welfare state ushered in by the War on Poverty?

    According to the 1938 Encyclopaedia of the Social Sciences, that year 11 percent of black children were born to unwed mothers. Today about 75 percent of black children are born to unwed mothers. Is that supposed to be a delayed response to the legacy of slavery? The bottom line is that the black family was stronger the first 100 years after slavery than during what will be the second 100 years.

    At one time, almost all black families were poor, regardless of whether one or both parents were present. Today roughly 30 percent of blacks are poor. However, two-parent black families are rarely poor. Only 8 percent of black married-couple families live in poverty. Among black families in which both the husband and wife work full time, the poverty rate is under 5 percent. Poverty in black families headed by single women is 37 percent. The undeniable truth is that neither slavery nor Jim Crow nor the harshest racism has decimated the black family the way the welfare state has."

    The solution to the black struggle isn't reparations. The solution is bringing back the strong, black family unit. Get the government completely out of the equation because they don't give a damn about you.
     
  16. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree I drink your milkshake! Club Member

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    Those two do not seem mutually exclusive.
     
  17. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    Reparations is more free stuff from the government. There is nothing free in this world.

    What do you mean? Explain.
     
  18. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree I drink your milkshake! Club Member

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    There is nothing about getting reparations that will cause discord in creating a strong family unit.

    They do not even draw an equivalency. It is like saying, you don't need steak for dinner, what you need is a salad.

    You can have steak and salad.

    Edit: And a lot of things are free in this world.
     
  19. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    Actually you are both correct to some degree and not correct as well.

    The fastest growing religious group in America are those folks who when asked their religious affiliation they list "none". Among those who describe themselves as Christian many still do not show an affiliation with a congregation or have any specific connection to a particular tradition. There is also a dis-connect between the leadership and the folks in the pews on the political front as well as the theological front.

    Modern "Evangelicals" are more likely to be politically conservative and less likely to connect to historic, faith based social ministry organizations. That is particularly true if they see themselves as Evangelical but are not connected to a congregation. Their faith is intensely personal and, imo, subject to serious criticism that the principles of "love of neighbor" are personally unimportant since it does not, in their opinion, impact their own relationship with God.

    If the politically liberal are Christian, they more likely members of Roman Catholic, Orthodox, or Mainline Protestant traditions. A great deal of the social service agencies in America have strong connections to these traditions. I serve as the chairman of the board of a Lutheran senior housing concern. Over 10% of our budget is charity care for folks that are not helped by family or inadequately covered by government payments. Currently we lose in excess of $60 per person, per day on Medicaid seniors. If faith based groups stopped their charitable actions, the needy in America would suffer horribly.

    Some political opinions, particularly abortion and gender identity, have a different calculus of religious support/opposition.

    I recognize that many folks have strong, negative feelings toward religion in general and Christianity in particular. In many cases, those strong negative feelings arise from some very real abuses they were subjected to. It is a weak defense on my part to say, those folks who used faith to abuse you, didn't truly understand or follow the faith. Yet, in many cases, that is precisely the case.

    I continue to practice my faith and invite everyone to experience a relationship with God and community. I work at loving neighbor knowing I do it imperfectly. I try hard not to insult or demean those of different faith traditions or no tradition at all. I ask for respect for my view in return.

    Blessings to you all.
     
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  20. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    My point is, depending on a government that clearly doesn't care about you to GIVE you something would be repeating the same mistake. I have taught school in Oklahoma near some of the Indian Reservations that the government GAVE the Native Americans. The conditions were horrible, but atleast it was free...I guess.

    Instead of focusing on getting the government's help (something they have never done), black people's #1 focus should be on what really matters....strong family units, black businesses and banks, strong black schools, and strong neighborhood with their their own law enforcement. Reparations won't fix any of these problems.
     
  21. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree I drink your milkshake! Club Member

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    Technically the Government took their land and forced them on the Reservation. Of course the conditions were horrible, the government took their good land.

    Their own law enforcement? That is the only time the NRA is for gun control.
     
  22. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    Yes, the government took their land. Exactly my point. Don't trust the government especially when they say they want to help, lol. It never works out for minorities or poor people. If the government offered me something free, I would go into hiding. I would be scared to death, lmao.

    Yeah, black neighborhoods need their own law enforcement from people in their own communities. It would solve a lot of issues, imo.
     
  23. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Great post, Fin.

    Believe it or not I'm very liberal in a lot of things and I never just vote (R) or (D)... I also, however, don't like identity politics. Therefore, and for the time being, I'll keep my "Independent" registration and see which people don't run off of that. lol
     
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  24. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Just because a majority of the Left is Christian doesn't make what I wrote wrong. I think it's pretty clear that people with left leaning opinions tend to be more anti-Christian (anti- Organized Religion too) than those on the right. And the data backs that up. Here is a good reference.

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/party-affiliation/


    Regardless, I still stand by what I wrote, religion is not bad. Whether that religion be Islam, Christianity, or Buddhism.
     
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  25. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You make some great points and a very compelling argument.

    I'm not smart enough to come up with a plan that would help the black community in regards to reparations. What I envision, however, is some sort of program that offers free college tuition, tutoring, mentoring, and other types of programs that would help black children overcome their very much unfair beginning in this country. A ladder that will help them climb out of the whole they were born in due to slavery. Yes, I agree that personal responsibility should also be preached, but telling a kid who was raised by someone that wasn't even treated like a full human that they can "Be whatever they want if the work hard" is pretty ****ing disingenuous.

    The problem is, people expect immediate results. So, for example, if all black kids were allowed to go to college/learn a trade for free in this country, and only 30% used that option, we'd hear that it was a failure. However, it's going to take a few generations to fix what many generations destroyed. That 30% goes to college and it's likely that the next generation will see 40%...and then 50%...and so forth.

    I believe that education is the #1 biggest thing in helping the black community.
     
  26. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Black neighborhoods need cops that aren't racist and burned out. Another thing that I've changed my opinions on over the last 5 or so years is police. This country needs a complete overhaul of it's police force. Yes, I believe that the majority (slim majority in some places)of police are good people. However, there are way too many cops that should not be wearing a badge and due to police culture get to keep it.

    I have a good friend of mine, a fellow vet, who is black. He is one of the smartest, nicest guys I have ever met. He's never been in trouble in his entire life. College educated, married, etc etc. However, he's also 6'4" and built like a tank. Every time he sees a cop he gets nervous. Why? Because cops target young black men...that's just a fact...and since he's so big he knows that a cop will be nervous if they ever have to talk to him. When I get pulled over for speeding I don't fear for my life...he does. I am a concealed carrier...have been for 20 years. When I've been pulled over I am not worried that if I tell the cop I have a gun on me that he's going to shoot me. My friend is...My friend is fearful to carry a weapon to protect himself and/or his wife, as a combat vet and a legal concealed carrier, because he's afraid of what might happen if he ever gets pulled over. It's pathetic....Cop culture is just bad.
     
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  27. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Also, that same friend and I have these types of conversations all the time.

    One thing that I learned from him: His family is from S. Carolina....His descendants were slaves. His grandmother couldn't read or write and her mother was basically an indentured servant who worked for the same family that "owned" her mother. Each year his family has a reunion and visits the plantation his descendants come from.
     
  28. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I'll give my opinion as someone who isnt religious:

    I think people should be able to peacefully worship anything they want. Whether it be nature, God, Satan...I dont care.

    The issue is when people in large groups try to steer the world towards their own ideals that impact the lives of others. That is bad whether it is religion, government or business.
     
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  29. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I hear what you are saying but please reflect on that. If you are part of a group which firmly believes something is either right or wrong, don't you have a right, indeed an obligation to act on that? Why should it matter if that view arises from a political position, or an economic position, or a religious position? How then could anyone hold any kind of position whether it be economic, social, or political?

    Real life example; many of the folks who oppose abortion are absolutely convinced abortion is the wholesale murder of children. Now I don't agree with them but I understand that position. How can you ask them not to work to ban something they are convinced is nothing short of infanticide? Does it matter where that opinion comes from?

    My Lutheran faith tradition says to me I am to put the best construction on my neighbor's action. That compels me to examine another's motives. It is hard but I suppose, it ought to be.
     
  30. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree I drink your milkshake! Club Member

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    Yes. I do think it matters where their opinion comes from.
     
  31. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    Honest question...why should it matter? I am not busting your chops, I really don't understand your answer. Please let me know why you say that?
     
  32. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree I drink your milkshake! Club Member

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    I don't understand why it shouldn't matter. I think it is very important where opinion comes from.
     
  33. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    So if an opinion which comes from an economic reason should trump a decision which arises from a faith perspective? To me that sounds like greed is ok but passionate self sacrifice is a bad thing. How is making the place where a decision comes from anything different than bigotry or prejudice?

    Yes, where a position comes from is important but only as a component of that decision. One should not be a-priori more valuable than another.
     
  34. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree I drink your milkshake! Club Member

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    So you are saying that if someone's faith is in Satan, you would not judge it differently?
     
  35. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    Where it comes from is always part of the calculus of decision. We all use "shortcuts" based on prior observations. Based on those principles, I would likely give an opinion of a self proclaimed Satanist a harder look but I would not immediately reject it.

    We used to have a poster here who was a self proclaimed Wiccan/Pagan. We agreed on somethings and disagreed on others. He judged my opinions though his filters and I did the same with his.

    Does that make sense?
     
  36. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree I drink your milkshake! Club Member

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    It does make sense. Basically you are saying it does matter, just not as much.

    maybe I am being very pedantic, however, I do not believe the idea of where opinion comes from shouldn't matter.

    I would put someone's opinion based on scientific research over someone's opinion based on what they saw on Fox News or CNN. Someone who actually spent time and research, and then backed it up with the studies.
     
    Ohiophinphan likes this.
  37. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Well I certainly respect that, this is my two cents on life which of course you can disagree with.

    In my opinion it isnt anyone's job to guide humanity. It is our own job to act in accordance with our own values.

    I respect the rights of those people to disagree with abortion. However, if they truly believed in God they would know that it isnt their place to judge sin. I dont really want to make this about abortion specifically, but without going into great detail I would say it isnt the job of anyone to prevent the sins of others, especially when those perceived sins have no relevant impact upon their life.

    I would say any God that commands action upon those who dont follow its beliefs is evil to begin with though...but I'd still respect someone's right to believe in it.

    I'd also argue that even if God created everything it wouldnt make God morally superior. Just super powerful.
     
  38. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    OK, it sounds like we are agreeing without saying it. Coming at it from a different perspective. I too would, using your example, take anything said by Fox News as needing more verification than from another source.
     
    Dol-Fan Dupree likes this.
  39. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Why is it bad to judge? I'm not able to judge someone and place them into heaven or hell, but don't people get judged when they commit crime? As someone that is opposed to abortion, and please, I don't want to get into it in this thread, I judge those who are OK with it. I would love it if I could change one person's mind. What's wrong with that? Same with anti vaccine people. I judge them. I think where there is a disconnect is some people may not believe in absolute truth and instead think that everyone's beliefs, opinions, and actions are OK. Do you believe in absolute truths?
     
  40. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    The only absolutes I believe in are ones that can be proven through science or are logically indisputable.

    For example I'd say it's a hard truth that we are all alive, share this earth and will all die one day.

    I dont think good and evil are hard truths though. Humans do things that are good for us but terrible for the planet for example. Are those good or bad?

    In other words...the words are entirely subjective in meaning. To you and I they may mean slightly similar but very different things. Everything is a two sided coin what may seem like a good act can have horrible consequences on the future. Is the action still good?

    All I know is that I spend every day trying to do what I judge to be correct. Along with the understanding some people may dislike me for it.

    At the end of the day if there is a God and it wants to judge me on more than that...I'd say I dont want to be wherever he/she/it is anyway honestly.
     

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