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Religion = Bad?

Discussion in 'Religion and Spirituality' started by danmarino, Apr 23, 2019.

  1. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I'm going to nitpick a little here. First off, like my disagreement with Dol-Fan, you and me are being a bit pedantic in how fine we slice an opinion. I admit I was being specifically pointed in my argument with you in that I think it has some rhetorical failings but that is beyond this thread.

    One point I do want to stay with however is the issue of "judgement". The word for judgement in the Bible is a technical word in both Hebrew and Greek. What Jews and Christians are forbidden to do by scripture is to announce their opinion that someone, by their actions/inactions, is condemned. That we understand to be God's right alone! HOWEVER and it is a big HOWEVER we are called to "bear one another's burdens". That may entail telling someone that their actions may be harming themselves and/or others. That is a fine line and the person being told may not see the distinction. Where people of faith often fail and sometimes fail spectacularly, is that in making that observation we are mandated to assist the other person in the correction and "walk with them".

    Again at the risk of bringing abortion too far into this discussion, if you believe abortion is infanticide and should be banned but then do not do everything in your power to absolutely minimize the conditions which often lead to abortion AND do not fully support the best possible conditions for "unwanted" children you are then not following scriptural mandate you see yourself as promoting.
     
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  2. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I have no issue with people going through the correct means to petition abortion. That is how the world should work. We should have conversations not condemn one another.

    The problem is when, like by my house, they stand outside screaming and belittling the people going in. That helps NOONE.

    Lastly...I'd say the best way to prevent abortion isnt by condemning the act. It's by creating a more positive society where rapes, low income and poor adoption practices dont make people choose it to begin with.
     
  3. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    Like earlier, we are using the word "judge" in different ways and with different meanings. Earthly judgement is actually a way of loving your neighbor by correcting or separating out those who might harm another.
     
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  4. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Exactly... I judge my kids because I love them and want them to do right.
     
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  5. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I also want to add, I hope I haven't offended you in any way because you haven't offended me. I think you're a seemingly good guy from what I see on the site and I think the world needs to get rid of this idea of "We disagree so we must be enemies".
     
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  6. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Oh, I agree. Screaming at people will accomplish nothing.
     
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  7. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    Gentlemen, I have not been offended by anyone or anything in this thread. I am particularly appreciative of danmarino for starting this and for Alex and D-fan for the debate.
     
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  8. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I can do you one better as an atheist and....gasp....a vegan!!!!!!!!! Talk about conflicted on what Alex said and what you said!!!!!

    I agree with Alex, that the only time I have a problem with religion is when they try to influence others with their religion, but on the flip side, even though I'm 100% pro choice, i understand the desire to end abortion, just as I want to end animal suffrage.

    I know from the outside looking in, it appears I'm trying square a circle, but I feel like there's a significant difference that I cling too....trying to convert someone or make their religion mandated, is wrong because adults should decide for themselves what they believe or don't. bu trying to stop abortion or ending animal suffering is defending the defenseless.

    If a person approaches their anti-abortionism from a standpoint that is wrong because it a life, fine. If they they approach because they believe their holy book says its wrong, then, to me, not fine.
     
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  9. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    All you need is to have invested in bitcoin and do cross fit to get a line in the most annoying people on the planet bingo
     
  10. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Funny.
     
  11. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    In my case my "Holy Book" is what compels me to see life as beginning at conception.

    That's my squared circle. Having said that and upon examination, my understanding of biology brings me to the same place.

    With all of us humans, we are complex and cross wired. It is difficult or perhaps impossible to eliminate one portion of a thought process or decision making process. It is all intertwined.
     
  12. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Being an atheist, IMO, is also believing in something that can't be proven. Correct? Is essence, atheism is a religion. :tongue2: lol

    Also, I think everyone believes that all Christians are standing on the corner screaming Hell fire and brimstone stuff...That's not how this works. I teach my children that kindness is the best possible thing that they can learn and show. If anyone asked my kid's teachers about them the first thing they'd say is, "She is friends with everyone!" I teach my kids no bullying and to be friends with everyone. Especially the kids that don't seem to be making friends. Why? Well, "Do unto others"...I get that a person doesn't need to be a Christian to be kind, but in order to be a Christian a person must be kind. And that's the part that is missing. And yes, everyone makes mistakes and are not kind from time to time.

    There is nothing wrong with being a vegan. My 8 year old daughter, since she was about 4, refuses to eat meat or eggs. She will drink milk and eat yogurt and cheese. It all started when the little boy at her school told her that bacon came from dead pigs. So, now every time I put food down in front of her she asks, "Is this a dead animal?" She eats pasta, fruits, veggies, yogurt, cheese, nuts, and the occasional steak or burger when I grill out. I might be an ******* for this, but I tell her it's a soy burger and a soy steak. However, we don't always have time to fix different meals for 5 different kids so they eat what we make. The only exception is that she will get extra helpings of the veggies, fruits, etc. when we have "real" meat and my wife will not add any meat to her spaghetti.

    But, and maybe this will make you feel better...We only eat free range chicken eggs. And we buy beef from a local ranch where they are also free range and grass fed. Believe me, I hate the thought of any animal suffering. I love animals.
     
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  13. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    lol, no.

    There is no believing with atheism. Atheism is living a life without belief in a higher power, full stop. "Not believing" in something is not a belief. It is the absence of it.

    A belief cannot be a fact. Belief, by its very nature is having faith in something that is NOT a fact. You either know something or believe in it. Trying to make a belief a fact means the person has weak to no faith. It is like red and blue. Something can't be red and blue at the same time. It can red or blue and if you mix them it is purple, which is still neither blue or red.

    I don't think all or even most christians are like that btw. I think a few are, and sadly they are the ones that get the most press.....just like the terrible vegans and atheists color peoples' views of those groups.

    FTR for anyone in general:

    Vegan - is not a diet. It is an ethical way of life dedicated to causing the least amount of harm possible. What a person eats, wears, consumes, uses, etc. are all part of it. So a person is either vegan or they aren't. There's no eating plant based food while buying leather products and being vegan. Or being vegan at home but will eat meat or dairy when out.

    Vegetarian - is diet based. Vegetarian means a person doesn't eat meat. They still eat dairy and eggs and wear leather and wool, etc.

    Plant-based diet - is a diet and is not vegan. Vegans and plant based diet people eat the same, but whereas vegans carry that over to other parts of life, plant based dieters do not. Plant-based dieters are basically like anyone else on a diet, like Paleo, Keto, Adkins, Weight Watchers, etc. They often claim they are eating vegan, which is a major part in the confusion for others.

    Pescatarian - is identical to vegetarian with the exception that they will still eat seafood and/or sometimes fowl.

    Raw vegan - can get jumbled. Theoretically it is the same as vegan with he exception that they only eat non cooked or non processed plant based food. I really believe it should be switched to 2 categories "raw vegan" or "raw plant based diet".

    I'm only making these distinctions because I want people to understand what they are because I find that most people that want to discuss, argue, confront, belittle or just have a rational conversation about this stuff, think a lot of these are interchangeable when they aren't. It just causes confusion to not be clear.
     
  14. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    About to get all philosophically around here...lol


    Deciding not to believe in something that is not provable is also a belief. Atheism is not based on science, it is based on faith. I think it's closer to a religion than some atheists would like to admit. :)

    Thanks for the explanations...I didn't know it was so complicated.
     
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  15. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    You are still conflating faith with fact and believing with knowing.

    Again, it is the absence of belief. I don't believe there's a god or higher power. I don't have faith that there is a god, I don't have faith that there isn't one. There isn't one, because there's no proof there is one. Belief doesn't enter into it. Everything on a grand scale, for me, is either things I know or I don't know.

    I know my hand won't turn into an apple. I don't have faith that it won't happen. I know it won't happen as there is no evidence it will or can. It is the same with a higher power. If one day, people's hands started turning into apples, then at that point there is evidence that it is possible. Unless that day happens though, it is not belief it won't.

    You and others believe in a higher power, but you don't know there is one. You have faith there is. You have that faith because there's no actual proof there is one. If you knew there was a higher power, you wouldn't have faith in it anymore. I mean you know there is gravity so you don't have faith in gravity because you know it exists.
     
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  16. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Coconut Grove
    In light of the totality of the evidence after seven decades of life, I have a reasonable suspicion that there is an intelligence guiding the universe. I will call it God for short. I am not persuaded that any religion has definite knowledge of the nature of God, but I am persuaded that they are searching for that knowledge. To the extent that they are normative and promote the qualities that enable humanity to live peacefully, cooperatively and with a minimum of suffering, I think they are good. When they arrogate to themselves authority and temporal power over the society of believers, I reserve the right to dissent. If dissenting puts me outside a religious community, that religion is not for me.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
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  17. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I think you and dm are using your words with different meanings. I understand both of you. dm is saying that the lack of a belief, in philosophy, is itself a belief system. I am not sure you guys are actually in disagreement.
     
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  18. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    While it should not happen it almost always does. When religious systems become secular governments they forget what we Christians call the inherent nature of original sin. I can not think of a theocracy which has been benevolent and peaceful for any extended length of time from any religious tradition.
     
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  19. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Not really.

    I realize that my faith isn't fact, but neither is the non-belief of an atheist.

    What you're implying is that nothing exists unless it has been proven or seen. A 2 year old may never believe in a horse is they never see one. Doesn't mean that horses aren't real.

    Yes, I believe that there is a God. And my beliefs are as much rooted in fact as those who don't believe in a God. Which really means that none of us have facts and are believing in something. Ergo...a religion. :)

    Now, I know some atheists at this point will bring up things like "Trolls" and "Unicorns". I get it...I do. However, my faith in God is based upon something. Unlike unicorns and trolls. There is actually evidence of a higher power all around us. There is not one shred of evidence of unicorns and trolls.
     
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  20. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That goes both ways. Atheism is a belief, not a science, not a fact. No one can prove that there isn't/wasn't a creator. We cannot even prove that this isn't all a gaint simulation. Atheism is a belief that I hold as well, but it is a belief. It's not fair to hold others to a different standard.

    Your analogy isn't a fair one. Ones hand not turning into an apple isn't close to the same thing. We can prove that hands aren't apples, and haven't turned into apples. We cannot prove what started existence. We cannot prove what was before the big bang, we cannot prove what caused the bang to bang. It'd be like not understanding what an apple or a hand is, or what they've been in the past, and trying to make your analogy. How could we even compare the two to find differences?

    If you want to reject a specific creation story, that is fine. Atheism is the rejection of all possible Devine creator stories. Even ones that don't or won't exist. To many of us atheists don't recognize how profound our beliefs are.

    Edited for clarity
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
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  21. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Atheism means a lack of belief in god(s).

    Not having faith is not faith. Just like the absence of heat is not also heat.

    You also cannot prove a negative.

    What is happening here is that you both are arguing definitions of words that you are, WADR, not defining properly. When I say I'm an atheist I am saying I'm atheist by definition. I am not saying I'm like Richard Dawkins or a humanist or whatever perception you may have of atheism and atheists.

    Cats have no concept of the internet. That doesn't mean their lack of faith in a real thing called the internet is faith. In the same regard, cats have no concept of teleportation. That doesn't mean their lack of faith in not a real thing called teleportation is faith either.

    My analogy is fair. Hands turning into apples has as much fact behind it as a creator. In fact, if there was an omnipotent creator they could turn my hand into an apple. I mean if everything exists or is possible until we do the impossible of proving that thing can't happen or exist, then it is just as much faith that your hand won't turn into an apple as gravity exists. If there was actually evidence and proof of a creator, no one would have faith there was a creator, because they'd know there was one for a fact. So that wouldn't be a faith either then.
     
  22. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You most definitely can prove a negative, but that's for another thread.

    Let me ask you, will the Sun come up tomorrow? Most would say yes, but why? Well, because they are going by what has happened in the past. No one, not one single person, can prove the future. This includes proving that the Sun will come up tomorrow. We all BELIEVE that the Sun will rise tomorrow because of faith and past experience.

    Not believing in something that's unprovable is faith.

    Atheism is the belief that there is no God. Or as you wrote, a lack of belief in god. A lack of belief in something that's not proven is a belief...and a belief is faith.
     
  23. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    From Webster's

    When asked if God exists do you stare blankly, maybe meow a little, and then go play with some yarn? Are you unable to even begin to grasp the concept of a god existing? Or, do you say no? Or, even "I see no evidence to support god existing". Either way, the concept of god existing is understood. Do you think that proof of god can be provided in the future?

    Of course I can prove a negative. I mean, in order to argue against this, you have to prove a negative. I'll do it now, there are no clowns sitting on chest. My proofs are looking at my chest, and feeling around on my chest for clowns. The problem is there aren't analogous tests for a creator, because the concept of a creator is a lot more broad than a clown.
     
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  24. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I've mentioned it before, but the justice system directly ties to oppression in ways most people could never imagine. Quick example-

    My brother, a convicted felon in Florida, got pulled over last week as a passenger in a poor neighborhood. This was during the hurricanes so there was a curfew in place, which nobody in the car knew since they drove down from South Carolina. The officer said that since they were breaking curfew and they looked suspicious, it gave them probable cause to search the vehicle. But then the cop got a call on his radio and left...telling them to basically get out of town immediately.

    He had no right to search the car or to order them out of town, but that's how you're treated with a black, white and spanish guy in an old beat up car in the hood. Cops flat out lie to them and do what they want.

    So they head down the road and once they cross into a new city (this was between Daytona and Orlando, for reference), another city cop pulls them over. He says that he smells weed in the car so that gives him the right to search- which was a law designed specifically to target people in impoverished areas. Florida banned that law six months ago so the passengers have no idea it's an illegal search, and they end up finding a gun in the car. Nobody says it's theirs so the officer takes my brother to jail because he has a criminal record...no proof, no evidence, no nothing...but they don't actually need it. That's not how the game is played.

    I drove down the next evening to bail out my brother and I ended up passing through those exact same towns in a 2012 Cadillac SUV. Cops were everywhere but most of them just smiled and waved at me- I even pulled beside one of them to ask for directions to the jail. He was friendly, polite and seemed like a super nice guy...but he was the same cop that arrested my brother the night before.

    So I bailed him out then called a lawyer- I wanted to get that taken care of while we were still in town. I talked to 5 or 6 of them and each said that they could get my brother a sweet plea deal- less than a year in jail. And each time I explained that it really wasn't his gun; he didn't even know it was in the car, but that didn't seem to phase them one bit. Their job is to make quick money by fast plea deals, because the courts are simply too busy for a trial where things like evidence is used.

    If I hadn't bailed my brother out, he would have sat in jail for 6+ months and received offer after offer- just sign on the dotted line and the judge will give you time served. You can sit here innocent or go home guilty...the choice is yours. But it's another lie; the judge doesn't have to accept any plea deal and people with records often get max sentencing...even though most people have records to begin with because of the same darn racial profiling that locks people up without any representation or a trial.

    Thank God most of us here haven't had to experience that, but the truth of the matter is that it shouldn't happen to anyone under any circumstance. This past weekend I spent $700 to a bondsman, another $300 in travel expenses and I'll probably spend $3k on an attorney since public defenders won't even meet with suspects in that area until 5 minutes before the trial (and that's just to say- take the plea!). The craziest part is that my brother's bond was dirt cheap because the state knows they have no case- he will never see a courtroom either. The state will drop the charges before trial and we'll have spent $4k for absolutely nothing. But at the same time, if I didn't spend it then he would have served 3-5 years.

    That's the story of over 99% of the nation's inmate population...a jury of their peers never found them guilty. They just got tired of sitting in jail while their lives around them crumbled, so they rolled the dice on a BS promise and came up short.

    Sorry that was long- this sort of thing just boils my blood. Slavery is alive and well in the United States with this being just one example.
     
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