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Religion = Bad?

Discussion in 'Religion and Spirituality' started by danmarino, Apr 23, 2019.

  1. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    There's a lot of logic, critical thinking, etc. exercised and promoted in the book, if anything it's a much more nuanced and mapped version of his professed views that made his public debates so popular. Like @Carmen Cygni said earlier, however- when you apply those things through a religious lens, of course they're going to come across as attacks.
     
  2. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    No one is arguing that those who do most of the world's charity work are probably affiliated with a religion in some respect, but the argument should be about capacity. Everyone has the capacity to do these deeds, without a god or not, and I'd argue doing it out of compassion for your fellow human beings would be a better reason to do it. You don't need a God to possess that compassion. The argument then, is how much BAD is done throughout the world, and how much of that would change without the pretense of religion?

    Would there be as much homophobia, for instance? How many people were killed throughout history in holy wars? How many people are still being killed today on the basis of religion? Marginalized? Religion is constantly trying to play catch up with the general social and moral sentiment of the world, and often impedes its progress because BELIEFS (!) as Carmen had noted earlier.

    The point is, we need to find an inspiration beyond a God to help our fellow man. Hopefully, when we do, the inspiration and religious bases that so many use to inflict pain on our fellow man will swiftly follow.

    Also your point about Christianity and science must be looked at through a historical lens. Of course, religion was involved with science, as it was involved with every facet of human life after its introduction, for a long time. It was an immensely popular guide to the meaning of life, before science had made all of its truly significant advances.
     
  3. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    As well as a many number of people, with no religious affiliations, are doing too. Many, in fact whom I know personally, who have dedicated their professional lives for the betterment of humanity (and convinced to do so not thru a tax-free business venture) by becoming clinicians, physicians, physicist, psychologist, psychiatrist, educationalists, and so forth. It's not beyond common understanding as if there is some higher power responsible for your good deedship, it's simply an understanding of being kind and caring to promote a better humanity.

    Been there, done that as I was the son of a former preacher man. I was practically born and raised in Christianity for about 30 years of my life. It was the true actions and behaviors of many people in multiple churches over my life that lead me, and my father, to walk away from churches, religion, and ultimately the thought of a supernatural agent; the hypocrisy is astounding.

    That's nothing more than verbal vomit surrounded by typical religious circular talk. I really really implore you to provide the case of Christianity's interest for scientific and educational advancement, along with critical thinking outside of it's fragile bubble that was/is not done so thru monetary or fame gain. It's virtually impossible. Christians would not be able to believe what they believe if such factors were driven into play; faith ensures that. And please, for authenticity sake, avoid using the fraudulent awards given by the Templeton foundation.


    As long as such ignorance persists, I will not have gone far enough . . .

     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2019
  4. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    In that context I'm not seeing much difference between religions and human societies in general, including modern ones. Perhaps, especially modern ones. Who has the highest body count over the last decade, Christianity or the U.S. government? We do so love our tribes.
     
  5. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    You can't be serious? Are you being sarcastic?

    First, your assumption of my affinity for America is greatly misplaced. Next, your assumption that those in the highest places of government are not connected with religion is also done with profound error. There's rarely an elected official that does not profess their religious faith to the public in some form or fashion from the president, to supreme court justices, to congressmen and women, other government representatives and officials, etc.. Your statement originally concocted for contradiction is a fallacy as both Christianity and the US government are heavily intertwined.

    The list goes on for days and days, but here's a few prominent figures to entertain for the time being. Ignoring your predetermined timeline, as I'll assume you're just to young to understand just how quickly a single decade passes, we'll hop back a few to the 60's (It was not that long ago, kids. You'll soon find out). Lyndon B Johnson, who was a member of the Christian church, was largely responsible for the Vietnam war which in retrospect was a grave mistake considering it's failure and the lives lost. Coming up to speed, both Bush Sr & Jr proclaimed Christianity and held it's most fundamental of beliefs in high regard. In the early 90's Bush Sr led the US to the Gulf war and in the 00's Bush Jr drove America into one of the largest of follies of all time with the Iraq war.

    Stepping into other areas, such as lifetime appointments within the government, take wacko supreme court justice Antonin Scalia for instance, and his speech delivered to the University of Chicago Divinity School:

    " . . . government, however you want to limit that concept, derives it's moral authority from god . . . Indeed, it seems to me that the more Christian a country is the less likely it is to regard the death penalty as immoral."


    Hmm, yes, nothing says god's love like a human's judgement to death. How about his asinine assumption that some god is on his side, but for reasons unknown and nefarious, or not on others?:

    "God has been very good to us. That we won the revolution was extraordinary. The Battle of Midway was extraordinary. I think one of the reasons God has been good to us is that we have done him honor. Unlike the other countries of the world that do not even invoke his name we do him honor. In presidential addresses, in Thanksgiving proclamations and in many other ways."
    Yikes, now that's extreme delusion.

    A general survey of the military also shows the amount of religious people voluntarily engaged or willing to engage in violence and war. Only about 8,000 out of 1.4 million active duty members in the Army, Navy, Marine Corps and Air Force identify themselves as atheists, and another 1,800 say they are agnostic, according to the Defense Department. At minimum, and being conservative, that's a very strong 1 million who claim in some way that they are religious, yet view death and destruction as an answer over showing their god's love and compassion.

    Again, that's hardly even the surface of religious nutjobs in the government who are directly responsible for deaths. Then take note of the some of the least religious countries in the world, like Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands, and other countries of Europe and contemplate their involvement in wars. It's next to nil.

    Now I'll leave you with this disturbing video, along with it's message and participants. Sadly, the US is just as guilty as other countries for brainwashing children into religion, war, and violence.





     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
  6. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's too many straw men to unpack. It doesn't seem like the context of this discussion is being kept post to post, or we are speaking slightly different languages with similar words that don't mean the same thing.

    To me the US government is not a religious society, Members are, but there are explicit prohibitions like the first amendment. The majority of it's members identify as Christian, but few say that it's actions are those of Christianity. The USCMA was not called a Christian trade agreement. You don't seem to agree with this logic.

    So, please give me an example of one of these modern societies that religion has no place in. If members having a religious affiliation disqualifies a society, then the only one I can think of was the Khmer Rouge. They forbade all religious practice.
     
    danmarino and Fin-O like this.
  7. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps Jeff Sharlet's investigative work is right about The Family.

    “I wish I could say more about it,” President Ronald Reagan said in 1985, according to the Times, “but it’s working precisely because it is private.”
     
  8. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    2 things shouldn't exist.

    Anyone pushing their religion on a stranger.
    Anyone who criticizes other religions while upholding theirs (as if its YOU and no one else)


    Not sure which one of yahoo's this applies too, but this is fact.
     
  9. Conka

    Conka Member

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    We are all still slaves. Paying taxes is a wage slave.
    But yes, it has always been evident that black people were pushed a step down. Racism is simply more corporate now.
     
  10. Conka

    Conka Member

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    Religion was simply another control tactic by a government /governing body.
    The Vatican ruled the world. Kings and generals asked permission from the Vatican , as to who would win battles between countries.
    If there's something out there, it has nothing to do with the silly stories in the Christian bible.
     
    MrClean likes this.
  11. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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  12. Etrius24

    Etrius24 Well-Known Member

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    Is there not a off topic section to post things like this in?
     
  13. danmarino

    danmarino Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is. Club Member

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    This thread is about Religion and was created in the Religion and Spirituality forum. Where would you like it posted? lol

    (But off topic...you should have used "an" instead of "a" and you didn't need the word "in", either.)
     
    Paul 13 likes this.
  14. Etrius24

    Etrius24 Well-Known Member

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    No offense Dan

    I am not going to spend time checking my post for spelling and or grammar if the topic is only religion... That is a waste of time.
     
  15. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Install Grammarly, it is free. I have it and I love it.
     
  16. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    :shifty:
     
  17. Etrius24

    Etrius24 Well-Known Member

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    Dude,

    The free version of Grammarly is crap. I can dissect sentence after sentence and find flaws if I want to take the time. ( Flaws that grammarly will not pick up on. ) Grammarly does not pick up on archaic words, or the passive voice. ( Just a couple of examples of things that it is usually best to avoid )
     
  18. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    That takes effort. I am fine with free for random forum conversations
     
  19. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    Not to drudge up an old thread, but there have been NUMEROUS scientific discoveries over recent years that prove man existing on this planet long before Genesis. In many cases, civilizations that were nearly or more technologically advanced than modern day Earth. Some instances even have 'scripture' associated with their existence that has been deemed heretical by the Catholic church and others. This is my #1 problem with established religion (raised southern baptist and to be racist...left all of that behind many years ago).

    I believe we have/had a creator. I don't believe it's 'the God' depicted in the bible. Actually, I believe the bible depicts 2 or 3 entities as god, but doesn't separate them. I've spent countless hours reading through tons of ancient writings including the bible, dead sea scrolls, nag hammadi findings, other ancient religious-wrought texts...and the number one thing it has taught me is, nobody knows. My personal belief is more related to the gnostic and includes more interpretation of the universe's impact on 'life.'

    I believe ALL of these texts have valuable information, but can't be transcribed to modern day accurately. There is no way to avoid losing a hell of a lot of meaning in the translation...we simply didn't exist back then so we don't know. Most of the meaning of these old/ancient scripture is in the abstract in my opinion. There was a lot of statements and claims that, taken on their face as translated today, were incredible or unbelievable, but when placed in the proper (current at the time) context, would carry a wholly different meaning.

    That's our biggest problem IMO. We simply don't know. Religions are established, grown, supported and revered on a sliver of the real story. That sliver may be an insignificant portion of the whole, real truth, or it could be the basis of it...there is simply NO way to know, right now.

    Regardless, society moves on, and festers into its ever-evolving state of the 'now.' Reflecting on history and using it as a teaching moment is crucial, dwelling on it is antithetical. Nobody alive today fully understands how people hundreds of years ago felt or viewed the world, themselves and others, we can only parse useful lessons from those times to improve our world going forward.

    I believe in doing the right thing, whether anybody's watching or not, and have raised my kids to be the same. I will NEVER benefit myself at the detriment of others. Whether that includes treating others as you'd want them to treat you, following the law, and being strongly dedicated to maintaining a strong family fabric...some of these beliefs, early in life, were learned and fostered from the church (even though my family I grew up in was broken as hell the entire time), so I have to give credit where it's due (to some of the good folks in the churches I attended), but I can't ascribe to any man-made established religion today. Too many tenets that aren't contextually accurate to the extent they could be proven.

    I'll keep reading and trying to enlighten myself until I die though...religion, in my opinion, gets in the way of that.
     
  20. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    Wow! To reopen a 15 month old, dead thread with such a passionate, hurting post is very powerful. I wish we could sit across from each other and talk. I'm sure your story is both terrifying and heart wrenching. I would be honored to hear it.

    My family had its dark closets and dysfunctional spots. My Mom was a prescription junkie/drunk who once took me for an unnecessary surgery so she could carry on an affair with the surgeon. I get it. I know how I felt, I can only imagine how you felt/still feel.

    Yet in my life, the Christian faith made/makes sense. Perhaps I have a pre-enlightenment soul because its "facts" and "contradictions" never bothered me. I felt/still feel God through the Holy Spirit in my life as a real presence. I am certainly not a mystic but I know that presence to be real. And I feel God's love. Certainly sometimes more than others but always there.

    It tears at my soul to hear folks proclaim a Christ through their political speech that I utterly do no recognize. Racist, Sexist, hateful! I pray, "God, save me from the people on 'my side!'"

    I respect your struggle, PF68. I pray you find healing and peace.

    As to the others in the background of this thread, I am sorry there is so much anger at faith in general and the Christian faith in particular. Sadly, we have done much and are still doing much to earn that anger and contempt. Yet, there are some of us out here who are trying to present a different face. A more compassionate face. More the face of the Jesus we see, follow, and are loved by. I wish all of you peace as well.
     
    PhinFan1968 likes this.
  21. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    Thanks OPP, but I'm in a good place, comfortable with myself and my thoughts on the world and family. It sounds like you have many of the same types of experiences as a kid that I had, and have also moved on. I forgave everybody in my family back home for everything LONG ago, but its not forgotten nor are the lessons learned from it. I'm still cordial with the few family I have left that are decent and not deeply ingrained in that world of alcoholism, drug addiction/dealing, prostitution, crime, fraud, etc haha. Sadly, it's very few. But they chose their path...and I chose mine. Freedom after all haha.

    My story was terrifying and heart-wrenching when I was a child...but that's long done and I've moved well beyond it, and I don't hate anybody for it, it was just the hand I was dealt, so I got a new dealer. Have to give a lot of credit to many of the leaders I had in the Navy over my 22 years. That period proved far more foundational to who I am as a person, than my upbringing did. Not everybody in the military is great people, but there are plenty there, and luckily I had the privilege of working with several. My in-laws (fairly devout Catholics) too. From day one they treated me as one of their own, and held me to their same standard...worked wonders.

    I respect you for your beliefs and faith and would never 'judge' you negatively for seeing things different than I do. You seem like a great guy regardless if you're Christian or not. Judging somebody by their religious belief is as bad as judging people by their color/gender/etc. Actions matter, and I've seen nothing but very fair, thoughtful, respectful representation of yourself on these forums.

    My belief comes down to simple ignorance...ignorance to the whole picture and what I believe to be very crucial, foundational, missing pieces, in that there's a hell of a lot more to the story than any of us know. So the best I can do is do what I can to do right by myself and my family, not dump on others in the process, and keep trying to learn. Never-ending process, as you know. Like I said, I believe there is a 'creator' or architect of this universe...I just don't believe we truly grasp that entity's impact, and probably never will. I also believe we don't know so much, not because the evidence isn't there, but because we don't have the capacity to put it all together.
     
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