Revisiting Dolphins' Brandon Marshall Trade, ESPN's Opinion

The heavy-handed approach to leadership just never works. I learned that the hard way.

Marshall and Pouncey are different people with different issues. I think it's unfair to equate the two. While Marshall was (allegedly) a locker room cancer and had to go, I don't think Pouncey is the problem child everyone is trying to make him out to be. IMO, his issues, so far, have been exaggerated.

In the future, Pouncey might prove himself to be this big 'thug' many people think he is. In that case, he'll need to go. For now, I just think he's a young guy who's made a couple of very public dumb mistakes.

 

Marshall had to go. Bringing him in was a mistake, and the team got what they could for him rather than cutting him. Traded 2 second rounders for him, and got 2 thirds to move him. Made what we could out of that mess. Live and learn.

 

To argue the other side… a great coach is really really good at getting players to do what he wants them to do.

See Phil Jackson.

 

Gimme a break. Vontae shows up still drunk & hungover but you're problem is with Marshall's action?.... and Marshall is the one in that scenario not inspiring teammates nor earning their respect? Seriously?

Brandon was a passionate, highly competitive, high work ethic player who wanted to win and was tired of both being on a team comprised of half-assers like Vontae and offensive coordinators who made little effort to utilize his immense ability. If he didn't care about winning so much he would've kept his mouth shut and happily skated by on his fat contract, but no, he was on a team where players showed up out of shape and took half a season to get back to form like the underachieving 2011 squad that would've probably made the playoffs had they been in shape and ready from day 1 rather than an 0-7 start followed by a strong 6-3 playoff caliber finish. He had every right to be vocally upset about that team.

 

I just don't think Philbin has the force of personality to lead players who have much emotion near the surface. Certainly not enough to keep troubled ones in line. You know, the calming Father influence some coaches seem to have on headcases… for a year or two at least until the headcase finally goes off again.

And, btw, "force of personality" does not mean a loud, or expressive personality.

Tony Dungy, for exaple, is understaed and quiet like Philbin.

But Dungy:

1) Carries more presence and conviction when he speaks, imo, than Philbin. A sense of calm certainty. Philbin lacks that. Somehoe Dungy seems to inspire that. Not sure how… this is personality stuff, so it's gray area (and thus easy to argue over).

2) I feel like Tony Dungy actually walks his talk. If he says he has certain values, I think he demonstrates them whereas Philbin espouses things and doesn't seem to follow through every time. For example, he'll pay lip service to open door policies but ship out guys who are too communicative. Entire leadership council, for instance. Now, this could be a misperception on my part… but it still says something that Dungy can CREATE this perception of himself while Philbin can't. Because at the end of the day, what matters is what the players think of the coach, not whether they are wrong.

 

Brandon Marshall is a great player that had zero respect for his awful quarterback. You guys don't think Jerry Rice would complain if he had to play with a loser like Chad Henne? Marshall is so good he made bums like Matt Moore, Kyle Orton and Josh McCown look good.

 

It appears the coaching staff, specially Philbin have had trouble dealing with many players in the past two years.

1) Marshall was traded immediately after Philbin became the HC and went to the Bears where he has been one of the best WR's in the NFL.

2) Vontae Davis was traded to the Colts and he had his best season in the NFL in 2013.

3) Carlos Dansby was cut after the 2012 season and went to the Cardinals where he was much more productive than he was under the Philbin regime.

4) Reggie Bush was allowed to go in free agency and was replaced by RB's who were far less productive.

5) Long didn't appear to be interested in returning to play for Philbin and the Dolphins ended up having to start Martin at LT. We all know how that turned out.

6) The entire Martin incident seemed to take place because Philbin and his staff were clueless that there was a major issue on the team

7) While Pouncey has played effectively for the Dolphins, his comments on twitter and his refusal to apologize for wearing a shirt supporting Hernandez only shows that he doesn't really care what Philbin or the organization think about his behavior. He obviously knows he can get away with this type behavior because the Dolphins need him more than he needs the Dolphins.

8) Even though there were reports Philbin wanted to cut Incognito after the incident at the golf course. This didn't prevent Philbin from making Incognito the starting LG for the Dolphins in 2013.
Incognito was so appreciative of Philbin's not cutting him, he became the ring leader in the Martin fiasco.

I think when you take a close look at how this team has been run and how players have been less productive in Miami than for other teams they have signed with in the last two years. It makes you wonder if it was the players who were the real problem or the man at the head of the coaching staff.

I think eventually many people will look back and realize that Philbin wasn't even as good a head coach in the NFL as Sparano, and as we all know now, Sparano was a BAD NFL head coach.

 

I'd rather we spend this time debating the threshold of force that justifies the use of the word 'slammed'.

Was it like…..
[video=youtube;0lXQPvVmIdw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lXQPvVmIdw[/video]


Or totes-McGotes like thissa here….
[video=youtube;XjwO9InuFJk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjwO9InuFJk#t=61[/video]


Because they are different.

 

Theres a fair argument to that, but in the case of Marshall I was referring to his issues with Karl Dorrell.

 

Anyone know how to get a youtube video to start at a certain time in the video? The way I know works when you paste into a browser, but is not working on the videos embedded in posts here in the thread.

 

Dorrell sucked so bad. Guy didn't improve a single WR in his tenure here.

But hey, at least he was a big success here at UCLA!

 

Can't disagree with any of that..

 

****, hadn't thought of that… if Sparano had Tannehill instead of Henne how many games does he win?

 

So much of your post is misguided.

First of all, #7 more or less negates your whole argument. As good as Pouncey is, he's still only a center but your theory is that all these other players were behavior problems for Philbin but he could do without them but not the problem child center? Really? He got rid of LBs, CBs, WRs and other lineman because he didn't like their attitudes but kept the center with a bad attitude?

Marshall was likely got rid of because he's a giant headache and it was likely Ireland's decision and not Philbin since Philbin hadn't even been officially hired yet. Which further contradicts your points.....Philbin didn't decide who stayed and who went.

I used to think that Ireland and Philbin were on the same page, then we learned that they weren't. In fact, we learned that was a major problem and it pretty much united the entire FO against Ireland.

Also, why bring up Reggie Bush when your point was that Philbin has a hard time dealing with players?

 

In 2012 his targets went up significantly, but you have to keep in mind they lost almost of their receivers that year. It was really Brandon and a few warm bodies (Roy Williams was gone, Johnny Knox had that injury, Alshon's rookie year he played hurt). Once Alshon started stepping up Brandon's targets came down, still slightly higher than here by 1-2 targets a game.

 

That's because you're ignoring history.

 

Probably would have won more games during his second year.

 

A little from column a, a little from column b. But just like the whole fiedler debacle, the complete blame shouldn't fall on the wrong man. fiedler never should have been "made" an nfl starting qb. Likewise with philbin as a head coach. wanny & ross will go down as two of the biggest dimwits this franchise has ever seen.

 

Why shouldn't Philbin have been a head coach?

 

What in his past showed he earned the right to be not only a HC, but a first time HC at age 50?

 

As much as any person who is a first time HC at the age of 50. Generally more than people who become a first time head coach at 40.

What in his past showed he hasn't?

 

Though possibly, Sparano's run-run-run-kick philosophy would have stunted Tanny's development.

 

Looks too much like a morlock.

 

I have never agreed with the statement that Sparano stunted Henne's development.

 

Suffocated then?

Kidding. What do you think stunted it? I hold Sparano responsible for all the stuff his staff did under him.

 

I hold Henne responsible for hitting his ceiling. He is a 75 rating quarterback. The biggest fault is Parcells and Ireland and the scouts who determined that Ryan and Henne were close.

 

All of this may be true but at least the field is free of gum wrappers .

 

The cocaine is better in Chicago

 

really? Tell me, what do you think ross saw in philbin before he hired him, and yes it was ross' call. Did he see video of joe displaying leadership skills in GB? Did he see joe on the sidelines communicating w/players? etc. The answer to those questions is no. ross saw nothing b/c there was nothing to see. For some reason ross probably got wind of local GB talking heads speaking highly of philbin and ross bit. So I blame the man who put the man in the position.

 

The reason I brought up Bush is because he, along with Dansby and Long were part of the player leadership council in 2012. The fact none of them were brought back in 2013 and were instead replaced by inferior talent leads me to believe that Philbin didn't want to have to deal with players who wanted to actually be leaders on the team.

Perhaps you need to go back and review the time line for the hiring of Philbin and the trading of Marshall. Philbin was hired by the Dolphins in January 2012 and Marshall was not traded until March 2012. I am not sure how you come to the conclusion Philbin had not been hired prior to the trade of Marshall. On my calendar January comes before March, but maybe things are different in your neck of the woods.
As far as Pouncey is concerned. With an OL as bad as the Dolphins, Philbin has no choice but to put up with his immature behavior. My point is that the behavior of Pouncey just shows that he really doesn't have any respect for Philbin or the Dolphin organization.

I was one of the major ant-Ireland posters on this forum for the past three years. So obviously I felt he was a major problem with the Dolphins. Unfortunately I feel the same way about Philbin. He was not a coach other teams were interested in hiring for a head coaching position. He simply got the job in Miami because he was willing to accept the fact that if he was hired, Ireland would remain as the GM.

Other quality head coaching candidates obviously had no interest in coming to the Dolphins under that scenario. So the Dolphins ended up with someone who has never been a head coach at any level.


The same situation took place this past off season. The better GM candidates had no interest in the position with the Dolphins because of the structure of the organization and the fact they would have no say in the retaining of Philbin or the hiring of a new HC. Therefore Hickey was the one candidate left who was willing to accept the position. This was after never being offered a GM position in the NFL after nearly 2 decades working in the personnel departments of NFL teams.

The major problem of course is the owner. In his five plus years as majority owner, he has failed to show that he can hire the best individuals to lead this organization. He seems to always settle for the bottle of the barrel candidates. Until this changes, or he sells the team to new ownership, I just don't see this organization becoming the organization it was when Robbie and Shula were running it.

 

Targets took a significant leap in 2012 over what he was getting while here and a median difference between 2011 and 2012 last season when he stopped being "selfish".

http://www.fftoday.com/stats/players/2646/Brandon_Marshall

2010 - 146
2011 - 141
2012 - 192
2013 - 163

Didn't do the math on his catch percentage. Lazy.

 

Chicago found a rookie head coach who knew how to run an offense. Offensive players are usually happy when the team can score at will. We haven't found an offensive coach in 20 years. Chicago didn't perform some sort of miracle to get Marshall on track...they just had enough sense to get a coach with a long resume of successful offense. Which is why we need Gus Malzahn if Lazor can't get it done this year. I can't remember the last time Malzahn has had an offense that wasn't top 10 in the nation. Hell, he has a corner back playing quarterback and they're still top 10.

 

I will mark this down to "agree to disagree"

 

absolutely.

 

I didn't like the trade for BM and definitely didn't like the blown opportunity to get two starters for him.

 

First, yes, I was wrong about the timeline. I apologize.

It doesn't really change anything. It came out that Long didn't return because of Ireland, not Philbin. We also know that Ireland wouldn't get rid of Cogs nor would he replace Martin, so why do we think Ireland would get rid of Bush, Dansby, Burnett, Marshall, Long during the same offseason but NOT Cogs? It makes no sense. Simple fact of the matter is that we did try to resign Long, we wanted more playmaking ability at the LB position, Bush was going to want more money then Ireland wanted to pay a RB at his age and Marshall was a headache. These are all simple facts, but instead everyone prefers this made up narrative that Philbin can't work with players or he only works with boy scouts.

I loved HardKnocks, but it really created this false narrative that people refuse to let go of regardless of the evidence.

 

It was a dumb trade, one in a long line of dumb decisions by our dumb *** GM that ultimately cost him his job.

 

Both Davis and Marshall were wrong. However, we aren't discussing Davis, we are discussing Marshall. Don't put words into my mouth.

If he only expressed his anger 'vocally', as you mistakenly said, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Marshall expressed himself violently... like many people with borderline personality disorder are prone to do. I liked the passionate side of Marshall. On the flip side, I absolutely despised the side of him that got DUIs, got arrested for domestic assault, had bizzare outbursts during meetings, and 'lead' his teammates by hitting them in the face with footballs.

No reasonable person could ever defend that side of Brandon Marshall.