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Revisiting the 2019 trades for future picks.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Pauly, Dec 18, 2019.

  1. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    With the pro bowl rosters released we can see that the ‘phins traded away
    Probowl starter left tackle Laremy Tunsil
    Probowl starter free safety Minkah Fitzpatrick
    Probowl alternate QB Ryan Tannehill.

    In return we get:
    2 late 1st round picks
    1 2021 1st round pick
    1 late 2nd round round pick
    1 late 4th round pick.

    Tannehill’s performance is above his Miami levels and it is arguable whether or not it will be sustained going forward. However, Minkah Fitzpatrick and Laremy Tunsil are performing at levels consistent with projections and both are considered to continue playing at this level for sustained periods, barring injury.

    I know the Tunsil trade involved Kenny Stills and some lower round picks. I am assuming the high pucks and Tunsil were the main value of that trade, and the the Kenny Stills/low round picks were the small change part of the deal.

    For the record I was not opposed to the Ryan Tannehill trade. After 2 HCs and 3 Offensive systems not working it was reasonable for the Dolphins to cut bait and move on.

    I think it looks like we’re going to have to do 1974 Steelers level of drafting to make the trades worthwhile.
     
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  2. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It really depends on expectations- those extra picks will not replace any of the three players you listed. But could we get an above average LT, a solid FS and maybe an average left guard with those 1st/2nd rounders?

    The real problem is all the solid role players we let go on top of those three- we also need to replace Drake, Wake, Stills and so many others that we let walk essentially for free. It's going to be a lot of net losses while hoping we hit on a few talent upgrades. I just don't see how we turn this into a real roster after one season.
     
  3. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    I don't mind the Tunsil trade. We got a lot in return for him. But I really don't like how this organization and coach couldn't handle Minkah. That's the type of young talented player you draft and don't give away, and I don't have confidence that whoever we draft will be as good as he is. A good coach should have been able to deal with him psychologically and find a place for him on the team IMO.

    Anyway.. I've said this before but one potential benefit of drafting Tua (more likely than Burrow given that we need luck for Cinci not to take him) is that you only need a good RT not LT, which means that a late 1st rounder could be sufficient to find a "Tunsil" replacement.

    Regardless.. trades or not we have to draft well to become a contender so we'll see if Grier/Flores is up to the challenge.
     
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  4. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I actually think Tunsil hasn't been that great in Houston.

    I was really against the trade, but honestly with his play I think it's about even or we may even win.
     
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  5. The Guy

    The Guy Well-Known Member

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    Couldn’t agree more there. When I saw he had become a Pro Bowl free safety I felt exactly the same way. Pass defense is important.
     
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  6. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    I think your read is spot on op.

    only thing that saves this is an out right elite QB add in the draft. And by elite I mean plays at the elite level in the pros and sustains it.
     
  7. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    Lets see how many of them make the all pro team... pro bowl is meaningless
     
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  8. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    I’d say getting voted as a pro-bowl starter is meaningful.

    Getting into the probowl as a backup/alternate has far less meaning now than in the past because so many players pull out and 4th and 5th alternates are regularly getting a “probowler” against their names.

    Tunsil and Fitzpatrick are getting some traction in All-pro discussions, so we can talk about when the All-pros get named.
     
  9. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    That fitzpatrick thing because we suck too much personnel deficiencies wise to put him full time at free safety is lolz.

    If we somehow win that trade with who we draft with that steelers pick I will be amazed.
     
  10. Striking

    Striking Junior Member

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    I only liked the Fitzpatrick trade if we were getting a top 10 pick. This is a loser deal.

    Tunsil trade is still very good. He commits too many penalties.
     
  11. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Both Tunsil and Fitzpatrick have played very well, but I don't think either of them are worth what their new teams paid.

    Tunsil is kind of a white elephant- he's taken the next step to be an elite pass protector with the Texans, but he's had a massive amount of penalties(18 so far, 12 of them false starts) and he still isn't much of a run blocker. By the time he's up for a contract in 2021 he might be asking for near $20m a year, and I don't think he's worth that. I think you've also got to consider his longevity, if he's really pushing his physical ability to play as this level as a pass protector(all the false starts), I think you've got to worry all the nagging injuries catch up to him after you pay him.

    I don't think what the Steelers are having Fitzpatrick do is worth a 1st. They've gotten some mileage out of being able to do a little bit more to disguise his coverage shells, but he's still a Cover-3/Cover-2 free safety. It's not 2003, if you're drafting a safety in the first you'd better be getting the versatility he balked at, or someone who can let you go Cover-1 all day.
     
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  12. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If Eric Rowe is out there doing the job why couldn't Minkah Fitzpatrick?
     
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  13. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Eric rowe is carrying coverage on tight ends. Something his size and twitch is much more fit for than the boundary for example. Absolutely awful boundary cause he can’t match the twitch.

    you notice there isn’t any real Eric rowe single high use.

    minkah balked at strong safety use and I don’t blame him. Slot corner use was never gonna validate that draft pick either.

    he’s malcolm Jenkins with slightly better pure instincts more carry coverage and less fill tackling.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2019
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  14. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    As for tunsil he’s got a nasty habit of rocking back early in his set. The kind of thing a guy that doesn’t trust his tools or doesn’t have them would do. Trying to cheat basically. Except his tools are elite.

    same habit he had in Miami. If he ever fixes it whoof. Really only hole in his game as a left tackle. Pass pro it’s largely a walk in the park.
     
  15. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    The steelers wish they had their first rounder... they dont have a quarterback for the future and are trying to convince themselves that Devlin Hodges is that guy even though his ceiling is Chad Henne..
     
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  16. JPPT1974

    JPPT1974 August Awesome

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    Joe Burrow will be on every QB needy list there IMHO!
     
  17. thetylernator

    thetylernator You're as cold as ice, Officer Friendly.

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    Grier is certainly going to need to hit on those first three picks--no exceptions. However, a nice fallback for this team is the utterly ridiculous amount of cap space they have going into 2020. I know that won't make those trades any more "worth it", but it is another opportunity to field a competitive squad next year.

    For what it's worth, I still think Miami is set on Tua with their first pick. If anything, the injury just guaranteed that he'd be available at our pick, and not gone to Cincinnati. Sure, teams are going to want to evaluate him with their own medical staff to determine if he'll truly make a "full recovery", per Dr. Lyle Cain of Alabama, but if the prognosis is largely the same, I just don't see a guy of his magnitude slipping to the middle/end of the first. If Miami wants him (which, according to Travis, they do, and Ross has demanded that the team get him), they'll have to use that first pick to get it done. No way he's still on the board with Pittsburgh's pick--not with teams like the Chargers, Broncos, Panthers, Raiders, Colts, and Bucs picking in between.

    Beyond that, I like Tristan Wirfs a lot as our RT of the future. I've also warmed up to Curtis Weaver with that last first round pick; he's truly a swiss-army knife of an edge rusher and can line up literally anywhere in the front-7. Seems like a Flores-type guy in that regard.

    We'll see what direction they take, but at the end of the day, it's hard to mess up with the amount of draft capital and cap space this FO has to work with. I think we'll be okay.
     
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  18. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    To me the Tunsil pick was an indication that Grier and co have someone or something specific in mind. Despite spoke opinions to the contrary Grier isn't clueless, he knows you don't just trade a talented player to obtain another one, that would be pointless. From what he has said it's clear that they're after draft capital, even beyond some individual talent. The question is why.

    Either they want to be armed to the teeth so that they can make whatever trades are necessary to obtain one or more certain players. Or else they see needs everywhere and would rather split one elite player into two or three good players. Only time will tell which.

    As for Minkah, the Dolphins stated they didn't want to trade him but he left them no option. There are two factors here, I think. First, it appears true that as part of this rebuild the Dolphins don't want players who don't want to be there. Flores is building culture as much as Grier is building a roster and attitude is apparently important. Second, there are indications Minkah didn't want to be the multi-tool the Dolphins had said they wanted him to be.

    Maybe the Dolphins should have found a way to adjust but then again, if you're rebuilding from the ground up do you change plans for the sake of one talented player or do you cut the player and build the way you planned?
     
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  19. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    I've watched every Steelers game that wasn't played at the same time as the Dolphins. I don't think Hodges has the ceiling that Henne did, honestly. Now, Mason Rudolph is similar to what Chad was as a Dolphin, but Hodges is a career backup at best. Just extremely limited physical ability.

    But to your main point, I agree. If I were the Steelers, I would much rather have that first round pick to draft a QB. However, Roethlisberger's contract pretty much forces them to bring him back for one more season, so they'll likely look QB in 2021.
     
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  20. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Yeah Berger’s coming back. I’m sure the Steelers feel like they can wait another year.

    offense is very limited with both Rudolph and duck. Very limited
     
  21. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Well they could still have drafted someone this year and sat them behind Ben for a year.

    I dont think that would have hurt them too badly, as long as they arent in the mindset that Ben can take them to the promise land one more time. Then they would likely spend the pick on something more immediate.
     
  22. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores & Team Tua

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    I blame him. I have a problem with players (and coworkers) who aren't team players. He didn't want to be here and play where the coaches wanted him to play, so we were forced to trade him for the best compensation we could get. I am still not happy about it. We wasted a very good pick on the dude. I hope we are more careful with who we draft next time.
     
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  23. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I see both sides of it.

    On the one hand, exactly what you said.

    On the other, it requires a lot of trust from the player. Not having a solid position makes it a lot harder to reach your full potential and you only get one career.
     
  24. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    I blame personnel deficiencies around minkah more than anything else. Which comes back to the gm and personnel decision makers.

    bobby mccain sucks on the boundary hey minkah rescue us. We don’t have a slot hey minkah play the slot and never validate that top 12 pick as a result. We have 2 starting strong safety types one gets injured hey minkah play strong safety. What?

    minkah this offseason. Hey can you let me know what position I’m gonna play full time so I can work on perfecting my craft?

    there’s no reason on this earth outside of just plain old incompetence and personnel deficiency which comes back to incompetence Bobby mccain should have started at free safety over minkah this year. None.

    Pittsburgh takes him puts him immediately at free full time...pro bowl and flat out elevated that entire Steelers d. Always in correct position. Always

    we will see what that 18 to 22 pick brings.
     
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  25. Phins_to_Win

    Phins_to_Win Well-Known Member

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    I think we are behind in value, but with that we also gain flexibility. I don't suspect that we will be competing next year, I assume our ceiling will be mediocre play. For even that to happen we will need 2 things. 1. Grier will need to draft better then average for each of the first 5 picks. They don't have to all be superstars but they HAVE to all be contributors. It would really really help if a couple no brainers fall in our laps. 2. Flores is going to need to keep coaching players up. We saw a good amount of it this year, and I really hope its something that he can sustain going forward.

    In a perfect scenario they will complement each other so well that we won't know who is bailing who out. The draft will be fun, and seeing the new players hitting the field will be fun, but I suspect we won't be playing meaningful games late in a season for at least 2 more years.
     
  26. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores & Team Tua

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    No doubt, I am concerned with Grier at the helm. I am tired of the misses. We have heard many times that we struck it rich! Then later, we realize all we have is fools gold.
     
  27. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    With so many draft picks and tons of cap space... i have been saying we need to reconsider Grier’s position... we can send a brinks truck to Ozzie Newsome and have him make those decisions for us.. just throw him a 4 year deal ..
     
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  28. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Tunsil was practically an "untradable player" in the modern NFL because he's so crucial for team success. I think the reason we traded him simply comes down to value- almost anyone can be replaced with three 1st rounders. And while we might not get a Tunsil-caliber player out of it, we should get three solid starters that have the potential to make impacts on day one.

    It sort of goes back to the argument we all had about Suh years ago- while he was clearly dominant, his salary took the place of 3-4 really good players from being on the roster. And who's better? Suh or a 1st string linebacker, safety, corner and DE combined? It's hard to make the argument for that one Pro-Bowl level player in that circumstance.

    Obviously we won't see huge short term gains from the Tunsil trade but I still believe it was the right move overall. The trade that bothers me more is Minkah- we will regret that move for the next decade.
     
  29. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    That Suh trade was bad for all sides involved, most notably for Ndamukung Suh in terms of how he'll be remembered as a football player because that guy was a wrecking ball legend in Detroit, having helped create the NFL's best run defense and one of the best overall defenses. He had 3 All-Pro seasons there, with 2 consecutive ones right before signing with Miami.

    Then he signs with Miami and essentially became an afterthought in the NFL (took some time of course). Our defense didn't really improve and he had few highlight reels for himself. He was on a surefire HoF trajectory while in Detroit, and now it's a toss-up. Maybe he gets in maybe he doesn't. But the years where people were terrified of him ended once he came to Miami. Guy should have stayed in Detroit.
     
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  30. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree completely. It's rare you instantly regret signing a generational player...but we certainly did in that instance because the rest of the defense was so void of talent (outside of Wake). We really shot ourselves in the foot there and it was the start of the roster we had up until last season....it all traces back to that one colossally dumb move. Because even when we did hit on a pick and develop talent, we would also let them walk out the door to have great careers elsewhere.
     
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  31. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    It's more than lack of talent though. Suh was consistently double-teamed and we couldn't take advantage? No one was afraid of our pass rush or run defense. I don't know the details, but coaching had to factor into this. Guy was too good of a player to waste like that.
     
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  32. The Guy

    The Guy Well-Known Member

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    It’s pretty difficult to surround a player with significant talent when he is chewing up that much of the salary cap.

    Part of New England’s winning formula has been largely avoiding players of that nature.
     
  33. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Suh AND Wake were double teamed, which means the rest of our defense was playing 9 on 7 and they still couldn't get to the QB. It was everything from talent to formation to actual coaching on the field that led to the complete <word I can't use here>. Even with slightly above average players still on the team like Odrick and Miller, it would have paid huge dividends. Maybe not enough to overcome the dysfunction everywhere else...but it couldn't have hurt.
     
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  34. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Flores doesn't want players who don't want to be here. Fitz was just a selfish little female dog. Too bad because I really liked him. Funny thing is that he's not going to the playoffs on the Steelers either.
     
  35. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    It helps NE that Brady has never really demanded what he could have gotten on the open market.

    Not to say he hasn't been paid, he has, but I think he definitely could have eaten more of their cap if he was selfish.
     
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  36. The Guy

    The Guy Well-Known Member

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    No doubt that helps. I suspect that's one of the key ingredients in their dynasty in fact.
     
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  37. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    For what its worth, this is how I'd have tried to handle Minkah.

    Id play him steadily at one position (Let's say FS) for an entire season his rookie year. This way he feels like he has a solid foundation.

    Year two, I start introducing some slot or boundary corner assignments here and there.

    The only difference between this and what we did, was that we basically got the guy into camp and just started putting him everywhere immediately. I think his reaction would have been different if he had been given a solid position with some increased extra roles as he grew.
     
  38. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    Both Pittsburgh and Houston are poised to make the playoffs, and Tennessee is right there in the hunt with them. I didn't like any of the trades, but I understood why we did them. Lets also not forget that Kenyan Drake just had a 4 TD game last Sunday too...I didn't like us trading him away either. Done is done at this point. I think had we kept all those guys we would be sitting in the same spot we have sat in for the past 10 or so years which is middle of the pack. I'm guessing somewhere around 7-7, maybe 8-6 on the outside looking in and hoping for other teams in front of us to lose. It's been an easy year as a fan of this team for me despite us being so awful, and that reason is because we have nowhere to go but up from here. I don't think all these draft picks will work out for us, but it certainly helps our odds having so many of them.
    So at this point, I am perfectly fine with the trades we made. I definitely miss those players, but they just weren't the ones that were ever going to lead us anywhere, and I also don't think that they were Brian Flores players. Brian Flores is building his own "identity" with this franchise and he needs a fair shot at doing it. It's much harder to do when you have leftovers from past regimes that are talented, but don't necessarily fit your criteria. I think that was the case with Drake, and Fitzpatrick. With Tannehill, it was more about just breaking up and moving on. We got a kings ransom for Tunsil and that's the only reason we traded him.
     
  39. vmarcilfan75

    vmarcilfan75 blah...blah...blah... Club Member

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    Im happy for Tannehill. It just didnt work out here. Im good with picks for Tunsil/Stills.

    I am BUMMED we passed on Derwin James for Minkah. That will bug me forever! At least i get to watch him in LA..but still. what couldve been...sigh
     
  40. Hooligan

    Hooligan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We gave up an 11th overall first round pick for Minkah and will be getting a mid 20s pick back for him. That suxs.
    We let Drake walk and didn't have a hint of a running game after he left. We're still making the mistakes of the past by letting productive players leave. We hear about "building a culture" but, what kind of a culture are we building when our productive players are asking to be traded? I'm all for giving Flores and Grier the time they need and, I hope they succeed but, it's a competitive league and there's 31 other teams out there with the same idea. There's a very real chance that in 3 or 4 years we could be back where we started, sniffing the playoffs and not much more.
     
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