Been looking at some of last years games just to Iso Richie..
First off I'd like to say that the combination of Vernon Carey and Columbo were so bad that it really does give me so much optimism going into the season..Those two guys deserve to be where they are at this point, which is OUT of the league..Bums I tell ya in their final year, flat out bums.
I iso'd Richie because it just seems like he has this thing hanging over his reputation in that he is a lumbering stiff, slow player...my findings were quite the contrary.
1) He's big, and he's strong, he anticipates the snap well, he doesn't take unnessasry steps in his back pedal before he engages, right off the snap he locks on, his anchor and base of his body is so stout its very hard for defenders to get around him, and usually once he locks on , he drives you out of the play or you basically don't get leverage on him.
2) the misconception...Richie incognito has quickness in that body even though it looks like he's as stiff in the upper body as Channing crowder in coverage, he's not, he's got some get off, he gets off the line with some explosiveness when he knows he has to get to the 2nd level, and executes the responsibility, finds the player, and gets the job done..I just watched for mobility and quickness, and I came away impressed, dude can turn, twist his upper body, and believe it or not, can run.
3) awareness...I must of watched about 300 snaps, and he is very good at keeping his head on a swivel, can take two players out of the equation on occasion, disengages quickly off his inititial, relocks, and always finishes the play thru the whistle.
4) I feel comfortable with him next to Jake, and I don't say that just because he's safe, no, he's consistent, he's strong, he's aggressive, he can stop a player in his tracks, has a good punch, and has mobility and quickness that he doesn't get credit for, he's a good left guard imo.
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He's also on the ground more then any lineman. I think he's highly overrated by some. Hes below average
PhinsRDbest likes this. -
What if I told y'all that richie, according to scouts, was the strongest and most explosive player at the combine?
I know Ck has touched on the fact that this dude has athleticism, and when you really Isolate him, it comes thru.
4.84 40 yard dash at 305 lbs..
That kind of ability doesn't just go away, now the fact that recently he has dedicated himself to get in the best shape he can, we might see a very good year from this guy.. -
I never once have heard or read anything on him that would suggest that he is great or very good, so you saying he's overrated doesn't make any sense to me, like I said in my post, if anything I think he is better that the perception, which to me, was that he was an average player, that's all I'm sayin personally, I thinks he's a bit better than average.
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Well you said he was good. So yes, hes overrated. Hes not good IMO.
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Below average ????????? LMAO. Here are some HARD FACTS from ProFootballFocus who of which supplies most of the NFL teams and media with stats including STATSLLC. Who is STATSLLC you ask? They are the ones that the NFL hires to put up their stats game by game and they get most of their info from ProFootballFocus. Anyway folks guess what ? Incognito is among the top 8 guards in the league in pass blocking. Scroll down to the TOP DOG section. Our boy Incognito is number 8. And yes, above Login Mankins and yes again, these are good accurate stats. Take into account Mankins has had the leisure of Tom Brady and a pretty healthy NE offensive line. Incognito has had Moore, Henne, 2009 St. Louis Bulger and street replacements and a crap Oline in St. Louis in 2009 and no right side to speak of in Miami in 2010 and 2011 and the kid still comes in ? 8th overall, amongst every single offensive guard in the NFL and like I said, a few spots above Login Mankins. I would not trade Incognito for all the tea in China. Him and Jake are perhaps one of the top 3 best left sides in the NFL. Problem is, most are ignorant and cannot see it. Hit the link, scroll down to TOP DOGS of which, Incognito is in the top 10
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/07/13/three-years-of-pass-blocking-efficiency-guards/
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/07/13/three-years-of-pass-blocking-efficiency-guards/MrClean, LandShark13 and djphinfan like this. -
No I think Vernon Carey was awful and Colombo there isnt words to describe.
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Apparently a lot of people that really know the game do not agree with you. Of the entire 64 starting guards in the NFL, the post I put up shows he is clearly better then 56 of them our of 64.
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I posted two seasons ago, and someone can check, Vernon Carey punched his time card out and I was laughed at.
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I've seen the stats before and I think their absolutely wrong. Just my opinion.
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I guess a Multi Billion dollare enterprise like the NFL is wasting their time and money using the stats provided then. LOL. The kid is a bawler and no, he ain't from no Florida schools so I guess he sucks then right ?
Most on this board would not make shoe shine boys for most NFL teams. -
With exception of the large media ya ya markets in the NFL. Most times you only hear about an Olineman when they screw up. Thus is the case.
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If you do not like Olineman on the ground then you better not watch a lot of games this year as CUT blocking has been brought into the scheme again of which, I love.
When Elway was tearing the league up in Denver his Oline, most times, was on the ground hitting D lineman low. Watch this year, learn, its an art that most of the proposed better Olines cannot even attempt. Like I said, watch. -
No I think their great, however, that doesnt mean they cant be wrong. Especially on the OL which is tough to judge from the outside.
I just know he doesnt pass the eye test for me. Hes just average at best for me. -
This is the first I'm hearing of any connection between STATS LLC and Pro Football Focus. Regardless, PFF's ratings are just subjective ratings based on a guy at a computer watching game tape, same as any of us.
Their stats and participation logs are quite valuable, though.miamiron, RoninFin4 and Stringer Bell like this. -
I don't see the argument that the great multi billion dollar NFL subscribes to and looks at PFF ratings every now and then as some end-all/be-all argument. The multi billion dollar financial industry all read the Wall Street Journal. That doesn't stop some of the articles in there from being fit for no more than a puppy mat.
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Well, he ain't bad.
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PFF and Stats operate in the same exact manner. I have had extensive experience with both. In both situations an individual is assigned a single unit. Oline, Dline, RBs etc. Its his/her, whatever, responsibility to watch each game and evaluate each player within their sphere of influence. Each team has individual people assigned to each position/positions that are evaluated.
Evaluations are handed in by end of business day on Tuesday upon which time they are reviewed by a board of people that have NFL experience by either former players, refs, FO people or coaches. Again, I say FORMER. PFF weekly is considered the TOP SHELF in sports evaluation, thats on the betting side and the big boys ( Vegas ) do not waste their money on relying on services that are less then stellar. The lights burn brightly up there for good reason.
Long story short ? Yeah, PFF is a very reliable source and they just do not hire people off the street like is done at Bleacher Reports and even some of the media. If the stat is up there believe me, its a good stat, a reliable stat and a stat thats been gone over and reviewed by people that do this 24/7 as a living. Add to that, the people get paid very well. The stats are put up side by side and compared no less then 3 times. If an individual is found to be " lacking " in his/her ( not many hers but there are a few ) then said individual is released and a proper replacement is found. Hope this helps.
This is firm reason why I posted that Vernon Carey had left the building even before he was asked to take a pay cut. Firm confirmation of that ? Name his current employer. You can't because he has none since being released and at best, will be signed out of need somewhere at league minimum, if signed at all.djphinfan likes this. -
Not passing the eye test is exactly what I'm referring to when I said perception, I fell for that a bit as well, that's why I isolated him, when I did, I was impressed, his balance is good Nap for someone who you says spends more time on the ground than anyone..
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LOL, yes you were Sir, yes you were. I do not mean to scrape anyones testicles as the internet does not show real emotion. As I posted above, who is Carey working for at present ? Nobody. Like I said and will stick by it. Vernon Carey has left the building. Problem is he left prior to 2010 OTAs.
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I agree, after years of not trusting anyone, last year I said here that the group is a service I can finally trust somewhat and matchup with what my eyes are telling me..I think it's a fantastic service and it doesn't not surprise me that Vegas has discovered it..I mean who else watches every player on every play and gives details?
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Who exactly associated with PFF is a former NFL player, ref, FO, or coach????
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Oh, hold on, I will put up their entire payroll !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not.
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He's better than Carey at RG and Columbo at RT, that is all.
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Problem is, I did isolate him. More then anyone else on the line. Because when we resigned him last year I spoke out against him, and was ridiculed by some. So I thought I maybe was wrong. Hes better then I originally put on, but he's still not good. And I seen him on the floor more then anyone else on the team. So I don't know about the balance thing. He routinely was late when he wasn't assigned to anyone and Pouncey would turn his guy to his side. Although Carey was worse.
RI gives great effort but that didn't always turn into great blocking. -
Whats your quick view on Richie CK? -
No he's not "below average". I too watch the Oline like a hawk while watching (and re watching) the games. I'm not one who pretends to be a scout, but he's a keeper.
Curious to know what you expect a lineman to look like, or do that has you so disappointed in him. -
I think Richie is good enough that we don't need to replace him right away.... I don't think he's good enough to be named the starter at LG after 2012. I'm not saying that he shouldn't be starting for us in 2013; just that I don't think he is someone that we should value as a long-term starter.
RoninFin4, Anonymous and PhinsRDbest like this. -
I agree, he is serviceable and nothing more. But, I do have some slight hope he can drop some weight and possibly be better then serviceable in the new scheme.
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I was one of them. I still don't think there was great reason to believe it in hindsight even, but you were right and I wasn't.
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So do you have anything to support the claim that they employee people formerly associated with the NFL? I use their content all the time and have never seen anything that would even imply so much. I would assume they would at least mention it.
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I think Incognito continues to be a somewhat above average guy this year. I was pretty doubtful at the beginning of the offseason that he'd make it in a zone scheme, but I've softened a bit. MrClean and ckparrothead had good arguments/points on Incognito's athleticism as a smaller guy out of college and his history early in his career.
I don't think he pulls very well, but pulling and zone stuff I think is different enough. He's got the ******* streak, which is a big feather in his cap. He'll work through the whistle, and doesn't have any qualms at all about taking cheap shots. The high effort stuff is nice because even if he isn't on the frontside of a play he'll give good effort which will hopefully open cutbacks, and he'll be in positions where a little shove in the back or extra juice on an initial double team might matter. If he's really losing weight and has better straight line athleticism than it looks like, he might be a nice bonus.
Plus I can't stop laughing every time I see him without a helmet on. -
I may be less qualified than most posters on here, but I've liked what I've seen from Incognito since the day he arrived in Miami. His only major flaw in reputation before coming here was his temper. Seems to me ha's done a superb job of controlling the temper and he's coming into TC in the best shape of his career from what I hear. Last offseason he spent time working a LOT with Jay Glazer learning martial arts from the perspective of gaining more power in his lower body and improving his hand movement. I thought it was evident last season and look forward to see how he performs in the WCO this year.
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hey Doc, yeah, some of my takes kind of get taken out of context, cause what I try to do a lot of the times, is match up what I see, with what the perception is... and while I don't think he's very good, or a probowl player, I think he's good enough, and good enough to be a component on a good offensive line, and the Pff stats kinda coincide with what I saw today watching a couple hundred snaps on him..you can't have first round picks everywhere along the line, so relatively speaking, the value of him, what he gets paid, where he was drafted, what he was acquired for, he's pretty good,and I feel comfortable going into a season competing with him.
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And yet, I have also reviewed some of the same players in the same games, and indeed some of the same plays which garnered certain grades, and I have found them to at times be out of their effing mind...so off have they been on the SUBJECTIVE evaluation of players on certain plays, that I'm damn close to declaring them OBJECTIVELY wrong.
It happens. They're a set of eyes, watching players, and deciding bad or good. And I know from doing what I've done for the past decade that five different evaluators can look at one play and come up with five different evaluations.
There's virtually only two shops in the world that do what PFF does and put their results out for subscription-based consumption. And I'm not including STATS LLC because as far as I know they're defunct (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). PFF isn't used because they're never wrong at what they do...they're used because there's an unbelievable amount of demand for the information they put out and they're one of the only ones putting it out in the form they do it.
In fact, not for the first time, I've thought of gathering some people and offering a competing service.Stringer Bell likes this.
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